SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I got especially PM's from women who completely agreed with almost every single word I've written.

I am not surprised. You know why? Because you can not generalize a whole gender to have the same thoughts, feelings and opinions. You know, it is easy to have an opinion that you don't have the guts to share in public. It is easy to have an opinion that you are too afraid to share because of the backlash or having to defend, but are willing to share on the down low. (I understand why the Wayward would have to PM their opinion.) If one has an opinion, I feel one must also be willing and able to take the "heat" for that opinion. God knows I have taken a ton of heat for my opinions. So have you, MrSpock, and I give you kudos for that. I respect you for that.

There are double standards. There are double standards for men and there are double standards for women. Yet, I feel you want to deny that there are double standards for women. Which, in itself, is a double standard.

What I thought you were complaining about with RB was that there are double standards here at SI regarding men and women. Which I disagree with wholeheartedly. I think the SI staff does a great job in making sure no one, regardless of gender, makes generalizations.

However, that wasn't even what I was posting to you about (until you went there about society valuing females more than males). It was more about your unhappiness with you and your choices. How you angrily lash out and project your feelings about yourself onto others and other situations.

IDK if this is just in recent days, but it seems you have done some introspection on your situation. That you seem to be having some clarity about your situation. I have much sympathy for how you are feeling about your marriage and your wife. I agree with JanaGreen. Maybe you need a trial separation. Possibly going NC with your wife for awhile except for finances and child related issues. I do feel that you may get some much needed clarity in what you need to do. Because, dude, you need to heal. And that doesn't seem to be happening the way things are now.

Jana

I think I know what I have to do but I probably don't know how. As I said there are also other concerns that I have to take into consideration. The cognitive dissonances that I mentioned are only a small part of it. There is much more to this. More concerns and more dissonances. And this is true both for myself as well as her.

However, maybe a trial separation as you suggest might be not only a way of clearing my head but also such a gradual path to put an end to this mess. It is always better if things are done slowly and not abruptly.

Well, all I know to say is WOW!!!

Who would have thought that something that started out so unproductively could have turned out supportive.

I just hope the original poster who has "disappeared" will find their way back and have a better experience.

There are double standards. There are double standards for men and there are double standards for women. Yet, I feel you want to deny that there are double standards for women. Which, in itself, is a double standard.

I agree with you. Not only that I don't want to deny it but I also explicitly stated (on the first or the second page of this thread) that there are double standards for everyone. And if we follow the same logic namely that those double standards for both sexes are unavoidable then to a certain level we can't completely avoid generalization! Using a plural form is not always a generalization. This too is sometimes unavoidable. It happens to men; it happens to women.

Anyway, I wasn't talking in this thread about the biases against women but those against men. I was not talking against all women or their rights but I was standing up for my rights and those of my brothers who feel the same way I do. Women do this all the time and in my opinion men have the right to do this too. I was doing this in regard to infidelity but gave more examples. And if men are not allowed to do it, well, then that's a double standard in my opinion. I also don't speak for all men and do not claim that I represent all of them. In fact, there are men that I don't want anything to do with them; I'm sure as hell they don't want anything to do with me either. And that's fine.

However, the only thing I don't do is to call other members "dick" (like the one from above did) when I disagree with them. Anyway, we most probably won't agree here and no matter what I say you won't believe me. If I'm wrong I'll be the first one to apologize. So, I'll repeat it again: I don't hate all women and I do believe there are double standards for everyone.

IDK if this is just in recent days, but it seems you have done some introspection on your situation. That you seem to be having some clarity about your situation.

No, it isn't completely new. As I said I just don't post a lot. I know people won't like it but for me RB's post was cathartic. It did play some role.

I have much sympathy for how you are feeling about your marriage and your wife.

Thanks for the understanding.

I agree with JanaGreen. Maybe you need a trial separation. Possibly going NC with your wife for awhile except for finances and child related issues.

Yes, this is probably also a good suggestion. I think that tactically to go NC for awhile might help.

I do feel that you may get some much needed clarity in what you need to do. Because, dude, you need to heal. And that doesn't seem to be happening the way things are now.

I have to agree with this too. I'm not healing.

spock,

I asked you a specific question. You gave me a non-specific response that did not answer my question. If you don't realize that, you really need to discuss the exchange with an advisor.

Let me try again.

Question 1:

Do you accept the proposition that there are only 2 types of men, and that each man is one of the 2 types described by RB?

I believe there are only 3 possible answers -

1) yes/yes,

2) yes/no,

3) no.

Which is it?

**********************************

Question 2:

Do you accept that RB's post violated SI guidelines, and, therefore, the post was rightfully flagged.

Again, I believe there are only 2 possible answers -

1) yes(/yes),

2) no(/no).

Which is it?

You may think 'yes/no' is a potential answer, but it isn't really. I think the mods would say SI guidelines imply that violations will be flagged in a way determined by the mods, and I think the mods have the right to enforce that.

Question 3

It looks like you object to the fact that some posts you like are disliked by the majority of members.

Do you ever ask the question, 'Are the objectors perhaps more right than I am?'

Question 4

You seem to go from 'Men get a raw deal in this instance' to 'Therefore, men get a raw deal in every instance' and then back to 'A man is getting a raw deal here.'

Do you recognize that as a set of logical fallacies?

Question 5 - I see you answered that above - SMS posted while I was drafting my questions.

You seem to ignore the fact that women get raw deals a lot of the time, too.

Do you see that?

************************

you don't have to answer my questions, but if you do, please actually answer them. Thanks.

[This message edited by sisoon at 6:16 PM, April 23rd (Sunday)]

SISOON

I gave you a very precise answer. Your approach is very narrow minded. It is not my problem. If you can't undestand it, it is probably your problem not mine. There are more answers to what you believe, you just can't see it or don't want. I can't also see it for you. Besides it is irrelevant as we have moved beyond it. I suggest you do it too. The thing SISOON is that I have no problem with people who think RB was wrong but you have a problem with everyone who has a different opinion than yours and disagrees with you. It is not the first time. Let's move on. I also understand you try to provoke some kind of reaction that might get me banned with the shaming tactics but I will not give you that pleasure.

Question 2 is nice deflection because you haven't adressed what I'm saying namely that the above poster has violated the guidelines too. And many other examples. Now ask yourself the same question as you asked me.

Question 3 - again a deflection which derails the post and is irrelevant. Maybe it is and maybe not. Maybe the majority is not always right as it happens so oft or maybe it is something different. However, what is important is that you don't provide any support. For example as the last two posters did but try to push again your agenda. I can read it and am not falling into your games.

Next, number 4. Your observation has no corresponding reality. You again read what you want and bend it as you wish. The only logical fallacy is the one described above and your inability to follow the other arguments.Last thing I don't ignore anything but you ignore or don't understand anything

Again, your post doesn't provide any support but derails the thread and it is just another example how my observation is correct. This is exactly what happened with strech. It proves any single word I've written. You are here not to help as your post haven't provided one single suggestion. You are here to push an agenda, probably because other opinions are threatening yours. How weak. Do you see that.

And please you don't have to answer this too. Yet if you want to actually help and provide support then follow the last two posters. In this case you are more than welcome

[This message edited by MrSpock at 7:22 PM, April 23rd (Sunday)]

I am so glad my DH read SI several years ago before the aggressive pack started posting. Actually it wouldn't have mattered, but he wouldn't have taken anyone who thought that way seriously. He's man enough to have a solid sense of his own masculinity that doesn't require the pack mentality to reinforce it, even when he's been hurt. I see all of this "alpha" and "beta" and "join together brothers to take back our masculinity" as a sign of massive insecurity. I imagine that Tom Cruise character in Magnolia, the motivational speaker for men who were rejected who grabs his penis and tells men to take back the power - his entire character was meant to represent massive insecurity and weakness. Weirdly that's becoming almost fetishized.

And I get it, I was cheated on and I was in so much pain I was willing to grasp at any straw that brought my head above water. I'd like to think that even in my darkest days I wouldn't have paid attention to people who tried to turn it into a story of lost femininity, but since no one did I'll never know. I think it's sad if a man feels so emasculated, they have to front like they're a pack of wolves and follow those 'take back the cock' messages that ironically rely on a person's weakness to seem plausible.

I understand why it's attractive in a moment when we're stepped on to want to see ourselves as making 'one simple change!' that will put us in a group that could never be stepped on again, but real men leave and real men stay in marriages all the time. The ones who stay could easily say they are strong enough men to build what they want in their marriage, and the ones who leave could easily say they are strong enough to leave for greener pastures when things get rough. All of us want to see ourselves in the best light and so we come up with whatever narrative puts us in the best light.

But when I see the men who have had to do that tell other men what should define their own strength or masculinity, using whatever narrative made them feel like more of a man in their moment of vulnerability and insisting everyone else follow that rule, implying that there is no such thing as natural strength and toughness without the pack, it just makes me really sad.

My DH is African and he grew up in a culture that has its own definition of masculinity, quite a bit different than here, and quite a bit different in some ways from my H's own moral bent as a man. I've seen how truly powerful and tough you have to be to use your own internal strength in moments of vulnerability, rather than the pack mentality in which others will tell you some external action will define you, some predefined way of looking at the situation, rather than your own internal definition of strength. I see that that strongest, toughest men around me rely on their own definitions, while the weak ones are susceptible to the alpha/beta/pack mentality. That latter mentality is like a pyramid scheme - it only works if you can sell it to the ten people below you.

^^^^^ This all day long. Very well said .

You wrote

…….men to take back the power …….

I wrote (prior to your post):

All this man hating society disgusts me to the point of just wanting to give up not only any kind of romantic relationships with women but this society as a whole.

You wrote:

But when I see the men who have had to do that tell other men what should define their own strength or masculinity, using whatever narrative made them feel like more of a man in their moment of vulnerability and insisting everyone else follow that rule, implying that there is no such thing as natural strength and toughness without the pack, it just makes me really sad.

I wrote: (prior to your post)

I also don't speak for all men and do not claim that I represent all of them. In fact, there are men that I don't want anything to do with them; I'm sure as hell they don't want anything to do with me either. And that's fine.

While I was talking about myself, you try to push other people in what you believe to be the right path. You claim to speak of everyone's choices to define their masculinity yet it contradicts this very intolerance as described above. It simply seems to me that you are no better than those that you disapprove. Just, another double standard! Those two examples also prove, beyond all doubt, that all of the double standards (mentioned in the thread) are true. Not only regarding the double standards themselves but the necessity to give up on any romantic relationships, committed or otherwise, as well as society.

Additionally, it seems to me that the pack mentality is unavoidable and the only avoidable thing is stopping the double standards labeling everyone you disagree with as pack mentality and thinking that you saw, you're the only one, who've found the light. You can have all my power. I don't have any but you can take and have everything you perceive as such. I for sure have no interest in power or even serving such a society. Power to you! All of it! As this is probably what you want. By the way, you just have to reverse the roles and actors in your post and then all of the above makes perfect sense.

I've seen how truly powerful and tough you have to be to use your own internal strength in moments of vulnerability, rather than the pack mentality in which others will tell you some external action will define you, some predefined way of looking at the situation, rather than your own internal definition of strength.

Correct, I agree. And this is why I will resist all of the packs and their mentality including all of the betas that force me into reconciliation as well as all of the betas and some of the alphas that force me into relationships and society. I will not be a part of any pack but rather go my own way. And as you so eloquently stated it "requires the most powerful and though form of internal strength and vulnerability rather than all the packs telling me that some external action will define me, some predefined way of looking at the situation, rather than my own internal definition of strength"

Then this

I see all of this "alpha" and "beta" and "join together brothers to take back our masculinity" as a sign of massive insecurity.

And this

But when I see the men who have had to do that tell other men what should define their own strength or masculinity

It is funny how a woman (as well as many women in general ) tell men not to tell each other or define their masculinity but take upon themselves to constantly teach men, even in this thread, about the true definition and meaning of masculinity (or what they should or shouldn't do). I find it not only to be a double standard but amusing especially when women tell men not to "mansplain" (I'm sure you know this term as it circulates everywhere around the internet) but "femsplain" their own views about masculinity to men while a man will be crucified for telling a woman anything about her femininity. And of course there are those men who have internalized this everything and are doing exactly the same to other men while telling everyone not to teach or tell them anything.

And to reiterate it, this is the exact pack mentality that I described in my original thread. I have foreseen this:

And of course for them it is o.k. to define for other men what masculinity means but dare not to do the same to women or other men.

And that is the type of pack mentality that I am also going to reject. Actually, I have to thank you for proving my point by bringing some more examples into the workings of those double standards and the pack mentality behind them.

So, whether you believe there are alpha and beta males or not, all of the double standards I've mentioned and described above, they still exist, vivid and alive especially in your post. Whether you believe there are alpha and beta males or not, this embedded cultural misandry still exists. And it's the ultimate pack mentality. And, no, I do not believe that all women hate men. So, in order to protect myself, for the sake of my own preservation, I am ready to give up on everything. It's not worth it when the price is my own destruction.

So, all I can say, you had here a nice theory. And indeed there were a lot of nice theories in our world that only brought more disasters. I believed in them all. Including this one specific theory! As with most theories they are nothing but wishful thinking. You can build un-endless theories in the laboratory, only it needs to have at least some corresponding reality. What you describe, from my direct experience, has none. It's simply delusion. All of those theories have crumbled and broken to pieces. Being a part of this pack in the past, not the one you mentioned, but the one I have described, all of them only destroyed me. On the contrary, I haven't destroyed anyone with my alleged "toxic" masculinity. My masculinity will take me away from the toxicity of the prevalent pack mentality of our society. The one I, not you, have described.

I see that that strongest, toughest men around me rely on their own definitions……

I agree again. And I see that the strongest, toughest men around go their own way, defined by their own definitions. Definitions that reject biases, double standards, discrimination and many more against them! They walk away from those who took advantage of them and they never look back – especially cheating women but not only. They also walk away from the society that hates them. This is what I should have done on DDay as this was exactly my original definition. I should have followed this voice, not the crowd and its pack mentality of reconciliation. Again, it's funny as this was the message in the original post in the thread but this was allegedly manipulated into a "pack mentality" which again proves all of my points. Oh, and I'm speaking of course only for myself. As someone said it's not too late. And I definitely agree with them.

To sum it up: I am fully o.k. with your definitions and views about masculinity. They have zero importance to me but I respect them. I also agreed with you about some aspects that you've raised. I just find it amusing that a woman wants to define for me what masculinity is. What I do not find so amusing are the double standards. That was the focus of the post.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:43 AM, April 25th (Tuesday)]

Mr. Spock, I have followed this thread, and the other that stirred your rant. I will agree with your main premise that the world is full of double standards. I will further agree that some men are driven by the view that strong men divorce and weak men stay. That is the way popular society seems to view a man who's wife has strayed, if he chooses to remain with her. I had to fight that prejudice in the beginning of reconciliation too. And it still creeps up.

But here is the deal with double standards and all the rest of the crap that is thrown at us everyday; those standards only matter to us if we let them matter to us. I reconciled with my fWW. I have my own reasons, and they work for me and my family. I am not distressed by people who feel me weak or co-dependent for staying with my fWW. They do not know me or my situation. I don't need their permission, nor do I need their approval.

Mr. Spock, respectfully, you may be able to pick what I have written apart, but I actually write this for those who are following this in silence.

Mr. Spock makes a good point. The world is full of double standards and labels. Do not let the world dictate to you what you need to do when faced with this awful truth of betrayal. Find your own center and be true to it. If you must leave, do so well. If you decide to stay, do that well also. Only you know what is right for you. Only you know your situation. Do not let some other person's standard or world view dictate to you what must be done. If you allow yourself to be swayed by the opinions of others, and question your choices, you will find yourself forever in turmoil, that that is no way for anyone to live.

WoundedBear

I am not going to pick anything apart. It is impossible to agree with everyone about everything. Hell, even two people will always find some disagreements. In the bottom line I do agree with you:

Find your own center and be true to it.....................Do not let some other person's standard or world view dictate to you what must be done. If you allow yourself to be swayed by the opinions of others, and question your choices, you will find yourself forever in turmoil, that that is no way for anyone to live.

True. This is gold. It is a lesson for life whether you're dealing with infidelity or any other problem.

This is from a poem written by the great Indian sage and saint Kabir:

Be strong then, and enter into your own body; there you have a solid place for your feet. Think about it carefully! Don't go off somewhere else!

Kabir says this: just throw away all thoughts of imaginary things,

and stand firm in that which you are.

Edited to add

Unfortunately, I haven't followed this advice although throughout my life I always did it. I let myself to be swayed by the pack mentality of reconcilation with an unfaithful woman that stands against everything I belived and every principle I had. I must regain my strenght, I must be strong again and then reenter into the center of my own body.

I must stand firm in that which I am; that which I always was. And this means either being the leader, the one that the crowd follows with its pack mentaliy, not a part of the pack itself or simply going my own way, being my own master. Going my own way is the path that I prefer to choose.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 4:57 PM, April 24th (Monday)]

Hmmm, based on my own experience here I haven't noticed it being overly pro-R...I'm wondering if possibly your posts attracted more of a pro-R response?

For example, in my first JFO thread, I was pretty angry and painted my WH in a very poor light. I got a lot people telling me to D. Some were quite vehement, and yeah, they implied that I was weak and stupid for not divorcing, especially because I complained about my WH so much.

Then, once I started posting about how he was doing all the work, changing for the better and all that, the pro-D people started to drop off, and I got mostly the pro-R.

Based on what you've said, your WW has been doing all the work and is strong reconciliation material (even though you yourself aren't). So if you were posting about her becoming a better person and all that, maybe that's why you got responses skewed towards R?

It's totally understandable that you'd have some resentment about getting so much R advice, given that it wasn't right for you in the long run.

Some people are the type that can make a quick decision with minimal information...they can D right away, never look back, and have no regrets.

Others are the deep thinkers, like you, who need to take their time and consider all the info, and gather more info if they can. You had a lot of info telling you that R was possible with your WW, and that outweighed your own gut telling you that it wasn't. You shouldn't beat yourself up so much for taking a long time to process.

PM for you, barcher144.

Hmmm, based on my own experience here I haven't noticed it being overly pro-R...I'm wondering if possibly your posts attracted more of a pro-R response?

For example, in my first JFO thread, I was pretty angry and painted my WH in a very poor light. I got a lot people telling me to D. Some were quite vehement, and yeah, they implied that I was weak and stupid for not divorcing, especially because I complained about my WH so much.

Then, once I started posting about how he was doing all the work, changing for the better and all that, the pro-D people started to drop off, and I got mostly the pro-R.

Based on what you've said, your WW has been doing all the work and is strong reconciliation material (even though you yourself aren't). So if you were posting about her becoming a better person and all that, maybe that's why you got responses skewed towards R?

Yes, it definitely can be. However, I have the feeling it's not only SI. I see it everywhere, online boards, infidelity websites, professional literature, hell, even professionals. I feel it's a very pervasive and universal phenomenon. It adds to the pressure.

It's totally understandable that you'd have some resentment about getting so much R advice, given that it wasn't right for you in the long run.

Yes, you are right. And If I'll be honest with myself then I'll have to admit it! I know that I have resentment. Not healthy! I know I can't heal like this. It is not conducive to my health or mental well-being. It is also not conducive to my happiness. I also understand that the dynamics of my marriage do not contribute to it. It is probably because my brain isn't wired for reconciliation. I will not be able to heal unless I change this dynamic and leave.

However, even if reconciliation is no more on the table there is still a lot of work to do with forgiveness. Those are two different things. I understand this. And I have to forgive not only my wife. I have to do it also collectively. Whether I leave or not without forgiveness or at least letting go, resentment will make me miserable and will perpetuate my suffering. It's not only the marriage but even when I decide to go my own way I still have to forgive society too. Hell, I even have to forgive myself. I get it. And I also get that if I'm not wired for reconciliation this does not mean that I'm an unforgiving person. I will forgive.

Some people are the type that can make a quick decision with minimal information…they can D right away, never look back, and have no regrets.

Others are the deep thinkers, like you, who need to take their time and consider all the info, and gather more info if they can. You had a lot of info telling you that R was possible with your WW, and that outweighed your own gut telling you that it wasn't. You shouldn't beat yourself up so much for taking a long time to process.

Yes, this is true.

Thanks for sharing with me your thoughts, inputs and insights. It was helpful.

Mr Spock , I am sorry you are in so much pain. It appears you find yourself in a place that you dont want to be. I think we can all relate to that to some degree. It appears you are in R , your wife is doing the work , but much unforgiveness and resentment remain.

To some people here the affair is the deal breaker. Theres nothing wrong with that. R isnt for everyone. D isnt either. Thats why its important to make the decision that you can live with. People can get great advice here , but ultimately it is up to us to make the decision. I am 19 months past dday and in R. I am very happy with my decision, but I also realize there are plenty of times where R isnt the best choice and always encourage people to make the decision that is best for them.

Its good that you realize forgiveness is a seperate issue. Regardless of whether you R or D, if there is unforgiveness it will only fester and prevent you from healing further. Are you in IC? I would highly recommend finding somebody to talk to to help you thru this , not for the purpose of pushing you to R , but so that you can become a healthy person. That way if you do find someone else , you wont be bringing so much baggage into your future relationship.

Reading your thread the resentment and bitterness comes thru . It is important not to blame others for our decisions . We as people have to take reponsibility for our actions , good or bad. What you can get here is advice and support (and sometimes 2x4s),but ultimately it is us that makes the decision.

I wish you the best in your journey. I know its been rough. I have experienced divorce myself and I too held onto unforgiveness , anger and bitterness. It wasnt until I worked thru it that I began to have peace and grow as an individual.