SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I experienced the feeling of there being more for some time. In hindsight it was most about my state of recovery from having trust betrayed. In the long run what is significant is how the wayward spouse is being now. A living amends is the true test of the future of the relationship.

I sincerely believe that in the overall scheme of things, the truth will come out organically if the reconciliation is legitimate. Recovery on both sides is not linear however, and the truth will emerge as the wayward is able to be real and accept their mistakes and grow from the pain they have caused. It's very hard, but be patient and the road to either recovery or seperation will reveal itself.

The whole thing is unfair, but life is not always fair. We must shoulder the burden of dealing not only with our spouse's breaking our trust, but then with their dishonesty about it. It's not right, but it is the way it is. The silver lining is that if the wayward spouse is seriously seeking reconciliation, then these matters will eventually be put to rest as the relationship heals.

Our therapist also would infuriate me at times with comments like, "what if she loved him too, but then chose you." The wounds are still fresh for us, but for them they are trying to move you forward in recovery. Of course if you are still feeling doubts it is pertinent, however there is nothing they can do about that. What they can do is try and keep you focused on the bigger long term picture of dealing with the consequences of being betrayed.

As time went by and I got healthier, I realized that the therapist was not there to be my sounding board and ally in detective work, but rather to assist in returning me and us to sanity. I am much more accepting and even thankful now for her role in salvaging our marriage. Under the stress of the situation, I did not always have a clear head and prefered to obsess over the details, but she helped wean me away from that trap. Ultimately I was able to get all the information I needed in due time, and learn what was relevent and what to let go of. It's a process...

Sadly, once you have been lied to and trickle truthed, it's hard to know if you have the 100% truth. FWH swears up and down and backward and forward that I have the whole truth. That there is nothing more. But how am I to ever really know for sure? Everything I thought about him is called into question. So now I fear that I will never ever truly know if he is telling me the truth. I understand that everyone here says we must have the full truth, but you cannot force them to give you the truth. I might have the full truth, I might not. Sadly, I will never really know.

Actually, you say you don't believe it wasn't a PA. You believe your H is lying. In your gut, you believe you have the truth but he is lying.

So when IC says "What are his actions now?", your gut responds "he's still lying, but trying harder to dress it up real pretty".

What to do?

Well, you two could schedule him for a poly. It does not have to be an adversarial process. H should understand why you have difficulty believing him, and an empathetic response would be to proactively prove your fears that he is still lying as false.

Have you and he discussed this possibility at all? There are others here in R who have done it, cooperatively and it helped their healing.

While it's nice that everyone tells you no healing will occur unless you know the truth....

there is no way to get it unless you dig it up yourself. The problem with the poly is that for some WS'es, to be forced to take it would be a deal-breaker for them to be driven to one or take it. They play offense, paint you as nuts, point to the money you're wasting and can point to research of its iffyness, and take a Valium.

The FACT that you tried to drive them to a polygraph teset will be used as a reason to file and tell the kids you're nuts.

Your best bet is to continue to research. Although I've read on OW board of a couple of cases where No Contact was possible and an affair ended while continuing to work together, 80 percent of the time the affairs stop temporarily and go back to wild monkey sex in three to six months.

Go the route of the old VAR in his car, in case he has a hidden cell phone and calls her from his car to and from work. If he doesn't have more contact, you'll have peace of mind. All the more so if he changes jobs or she does. Secure it well so it won't slide from under the seat, under the brake or gas pedal, and kill the rest of us on the road.

They only admit to what you can verify. Some never admit a single word.

Some BS'es here have written post after post of NOT having details, then when you read back on their past posts, realize they've had all of the info the needed from her underwear found under his seat to the thousands of cell phone calls to a husband that suddenly did his own laundry and to one who never wanted sex with his wife again. These BS'es are gaslighting THEMSELVES hoping to find evidence that what they know ISN'T TRUE. These BS could see their husband's dick in the OW and still find a way to ask us here what they can do to "prove" the affair. What they want is the reverse - to have what they know UNproven.

What many of us really want is an apology and some explanation of why it won't happen again ever, in a thought-out, reasonable way and not just a "trust me, I wont' again" kind of comment. That's the crux of it, right? A man who doesn't admit to knifing his wife in the back can't say he is sorry, explain why he won't do it again, and reassure her. Because a man comfortable with lying to his wife in the present is a man comfortable enough to lie to her in the future.

[This message edited by suspiciousmind at 8:29 AM, August 19th (Wednesday)]

JustWow already said what I was going to say. Your IC needs a brain. You feel he is still lying to you, if he is, then his actions today are those of a person who is lying to their spouse about an affair. Seems pretty simple to me. ICs and MCs who want people to overlook the possibility/liklihood that the WS is still lying and only to look at what efforts they are making towards the marriage just don't get it. If the WS is keeping anything hidden when they are being asked to disclose, they are still being selfish, still lying and still likely to continue such behavior. I think I would ask about polygraph.

suspicious mind-

I agree, some WS, if they feel "forced" to poly, somehow believe that that is what ultimately ends the M. Being forced.

Well, if a WS has to be forced, how remorseful and empathetic are they? What kind of R do you have? Why do surveillance to see if this WS is currently misbehaving when you can see right in front of you they are not empathetic? So you can say to yourself, "Sure, he ain't empathetic, but he's not acting up right now, while I'm watching him, well, at least not that I've been able to catch?".

Like I said, the poly thing by no means needs to be adversarial. It can be a turbo boost of verifying in the old "trust, but verify" adage, and ultimately, that helps both the WS and the BS.

Your gut is hardly ever wrong. You do feel like you are going crazy when you know in your gut, but they keep denying. You have to know the truth or you will always have that unsettled feeling and somewhere down the line the hidden truth will eat up the WS either physical ailments, emotional withdrawl or etc. It will hurt your marriage later, because witholding truth is not true R.

Wow...how confusing for you! So much advice, so many different points of view...and all of them are right for them I guess!

What I posted regarding my path, is just that, my path.

Truth, and details, are totally different things.

You think the EA was a PA. Now, that is a big detail to leave out, and IMO that qualifies as a lie - lets just call it the lie of "that is all there is to know".

See I already knew my H had sex with several OW...I just don't know if he has told me about all of them, or exactly how long it had been happening.

So I just imagined the worst case scenario - say at least a dozen more women, since the beginning of our relationship...

And I looked at the M, and thought to myself, if I knew and believed that this was all true - do I think it is possible that he is a good person who was mightily screwed up, is he romorseful, can he change....or is he playing me?

I decided that knowing there was more would not change my choice to R. And I have stuck by that decision.

To me, one would have been enough if I was going to leave. My H IMO and I could be wrong oh well, my H is a worthy man who got lost in selfishness and addiction.

So, I know my truth. And you know what? He knows his too - NOW. He didn't before...I think that has more to do with his own healing than anything else.

He has slowly and surely faced who he is...and started to care, and learned that loving doesn't have to hurt.

Strangely enough - my H has had to learn to trust me.

He has told me that he is afraid to let me know how much he loves me.

That's the crux of it, right? A man who doesn't admit to knifing his wife in the back can't say he is sorry, explain why he won't do it again, and reassure her. Because a man comfortable with lying to his wife in the present is a man comfortable enough to lie to her in the future.

Very well said, SM.

When you don't think that you have the full truth, you ultimately only have two choices: (a) live with it, or (b) divorce him. We BS's have the hardest time accepting those two choices(me included), but it's just the way it is.

Very few BS's will actually choose divorce. Mostly because it's very difficult to decide to upend your entire life based solely on a Gut Feeling. (Although, as SM points out, we are often dealing with a lot more than just our Guts.) DesertLotus and a few others here have "forced" their WS to tell the truth by stating that they were divorcing unless they received the full truth. But far more members here (like me) have not received the truth when we've threatened divorce because we weren't prepared to follow through. I can't recall a single BS here who actually divorced over her belief that she didn't have the full truth.

Ultimately, the vast majority of us choose instead to live with it. If you're going to choose to live with a WS that you believe is lying to you, the best strategy is what healingtree is advising you --- to find peace with your decision. That's by far the best approach.

A marriage without truth is not going to be the best marriage or a fully healthy marriage. But it's not necessary for you to have a good and healthy marraige in order to have peace with yourself or for you to be happy. And that's ultimately the most important thing --- that YOU are happy and centered. If your husband isn't honest, that's his problem. Not yours. Be honest with yourself, recognize that you are choosing to stay in an unhealthy marriage, and decide how you can be responsible for your own happiness in spite of that choice.

Just to clarify: If the WS will agree to a polygraph or it works to threaten one, go ahead.

I was explaining why some BS'es aren't able to go that route.

I also agree that details and truth are very different. The main truth a BS needs is to know contact has ended in all of its forms, and it will not start again.

While I'm talking about D-Days: Always, I have very much disliked the practice here of a BS putting in extra D-Days when there wasn't a real D-Day, as of seeing husband and OW together again, but BS just learned that her husband bought her and the same OW the same pair of earrings for Christmas three years ago.

Sure, it's a shock and it rocks a BS'es world to know the OW was put on par with her, or she on par with a booty call on the side. But that's just another detail, not a real D-Day. It may be a devastation day, but it's not anywhere close to the day that a wife discovers that who she thought her spouse is, and how special her marriage was, was false. He's just another dickwad like all the other horney husbands out there hitting on the women they meet.

That is the true D-Day, realizing your life is not what you think it was, that YOU are not as special to a spouse as you thought you were.

Unless it's a full-out D-Day - as in false reconciliation - then I don't think a second D-Day date should be put at the bottom of a post.

I am seeing IC today and am going to bring it up to him again, although I know he doesn't really support me on this. He believes my H and says that I should look at his actions NOW not then. It's hard.

But if his actions NOW include continuing to lie then you have little to R with. This is why getting the truth is so important. It's not just knowing what really happened that matters, it's knowing there are no more lies.

For us, it has to be a bold leap of faith. We are committed to each other in this painful road of betrayal, acknowledgement, and reconciliation.

For us, the betrayal was long, long ago; memory fades (thank goodness), so knowing the detailed truth is not an option. Forgiveness is the key. Honesty, faith, loyalty are intertwined throughout.

I am in the same situation. Mine also claims there was no PA but then why all the lies?

He also added an awful story about when we were dating but then said it was not true.

Its a horrible feeling to have someone play with you like that. Almost like they are enjoying the attention. Then a few seconds later declare their love and desire to stay together.

I have asked him to take a poly and he has agreed. I am just wondering what will come out on the way there!

Thanks for everyone's posts. It seems there are alot of us in the same boat. Ming56, I wish I could get past it, but right now my mind just won't let me. I know his actions now are that of a remorseful husband, but still......I can't help but wonder. And while I'm on the subject one thing that just ticks me off is when my H or my IC says, "But he's with you NOW" as if that should make it all better. He chose me, but he also chose to betray me. Anyway I digress, thanks again for all of the input. I have discussed it with my H and he still sticks by his story. I may bring up a polygraph next just to see his reaction. Take care.

double

[This message edited by suspiciousmind at 11:20 PM, August 21st (Friday)]

Sometimes I think God kept me from finding the smoking gun. If I had found it, for a certainty, I would have surely have left for dignity's sake even though not wishing to leave. Every time I almost had that smoking gun in hand, something weird would happen, such as the cell company having no history of our cell phone account. We got glipped out of their system when they were bought out by another company.

The day I KNEW for a certainty where he might be and with whom, the car I had at work would not start. Dead completely. Not a battery in need of a quick jumpstart, another problem, and not a problem that could have been caused by tampering. An electrical problem.

Circumstances in our lives have since let me see that if I had left, then our lives would have been a disaster. Maybe God could see ahead to health problems in our family and problems in this economy that have led to layoffs and threatened both of our jobs. When our daughter was born, I prayed that God would do whatever was best for HER even if he had to run me down with a train. I meant it too, and God knows I meant it.

So I guess he protected her at the price of me staying in agony for three years, because he could see ahead of what she would need.

Please, other BS, don't read this as telling you that YOU should stay in your marriages and never leave. Some of you SHOULD leave. For some children, a parent getting out of a volatile, tense, screaming household and one that's emotionally abusive is the best thing. Parents should be the grownups, not act like battling teeny-boppers over high school romances. Parents shouldn't let their stupid troubles, even infidelity, take all oxygen in the room, so to speak, so that a child feels alone and unable to talk to a parent about his./her troubles, feeling guilty about airing their own troubles.

It's just that in OUR specific circumstances, what was best for my daughter was for me to suffer a helluva lot for three years in limbo. That's OK. What's best for her is best for me.

[This message edited by suspiciousmind at 8:23 AM, August 21st (Friday)]

I, too, could have written this same post.

I would say you can't get past not knowing the truth, and the longer it goes on, the more you're going to wonder what else he hasn't told you.

From reading these boards, it seems as if most people in R are resigned to never fully trusting again and never fully knowing everything.

My hope for you - and for all of us - that we at least become comfortable with the "not knowing" so it doesn't consume us.

Sad how we are the ones who continue to pay the price for their affairs.

(((Blindsided))))

Sorry, I posted my last response without reading your last post.

My story is EXACTLY the same. MC believed WH.

I started going to IC after 1.5 years because I still felt there was more I didn't know, and MC confirmed it was a good idea because clearly this was my problem, not getting past my doubts.

Found out a few months later, there was a ONS with same OW.

Last summer I called OW at her office to find out the details from her. She confirmed exactly what H said and I felt some relief for a couple of days.

Found out just this week (after 3 years!) that it wasn't a ONS, it was several months of PA. The reason OW told me the "correct" answers was because in all the months during MC they were still in frequent contact, and she knew exactly what story I believed.

Getting this information has put us back at square one. Not just that the EA and PA started much earlier and lasted longer, but that he stayed in contact with her through the whole first year of MC.

I hope your path is not the same as mine. You have my endless support.

Acceptance! Once you accept that you will never know, with 100% certainty, that you know all that happened, you can release yourself from that trap. It may be that even you WS doesn't know exactly what went on, hense, you will never have the whole thing. By accepting that, you no longer will have a need to fill in the blanks with your own versions.

Don't bring up the poly just to see his reaction. You must be prepared to follow through.