SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am sorry but there is NEVER a good reason to blame or place co-responsibility onto the BS. The WS is 100% responsible for the CHOICE they make to cheat. We all have marital issues but we do NOT all chose to cheat on our spouse. We do not all say "my spouse doesn't "blank" so I will drop my drawers for xx and screw my way out of the marital issues". NO, we BS's chose to try to work on the marriage, discuss the issues and keep our marriage intact. We do NOT bring other people into our bed to soothe ourselves and blame the BS for our infidelities.

Infidelity is an active choice of the WS to avoid dealing with issues within themselves and the marriage. It is also an abuse of the BS, the marriage and the children.

There were problems in my marriage but I could not get my ex to communicate, go to counseling or even read a bloody book. I put up with his alcoholism, his constant need for outside attention, he constant leaving me at home to spend time with everyone but me and his horrific rages but I never cheated on him. I suffered emotional, verbal and threats of physical abuse but I still never cheated. I loved my WH and wanted to work out our issues. It was only after I learned of all of his cheating that I realized that his issues went far deeper than our marriage problems. My ex cheated on all of his wives and he will always cheat because he refuse to look at himself and find out why he is so messed up. If ANYONE ever blamed me for my ex cheating I would lose it on them. Until you live in the marriage you can NOT ever know what is truly going on.

Please seek a new counselor as you do not need to have one that will so quickly tell you that you are co-responsible for your WH cheating or that you will be cheated on again if you do not see her. Your WH will happily allow this MC to blame you so that he doesn't have to do any deep soul searching to discover why he made the choice to cheat. Do NOT let anyone tell you that you have any responsibility for his infidelity. My heart goes out to you as you deal with this pain.

I call BS on your MC . That "counseling" is endangering your processing and enabling the WS to blame shift. I personally advocate IC. Get yourself on mental terra firma first, and if the IC thinks it would be of any use; a referral for a MC. Use the oxygen mask on yourself first!

Issues within the marriage are marriage issues. Making the decision to go outside the marriage is an individual decision. I'm pretty sure no BS has ever been consulted by their WS to see if it was fine for them to have an affair.

I had to kind of smile at this one. Of course at the time I was not smiling. My WH, when we were trying to decide rather to D or not because of his "crush" said sometimes people stay together take care of their kids and one of the partners has someone else, would you consider that? I of course looked at him like he had two heads and began crying.

Back to the topic at hand. MJane, I don't think you are co-responsible for your H affair. First off if he had decided to become an alcoholic to deal with the M problems would you be responsible for the car he hit on the way home from the bar in which he killed someone? Of course not.

I do take full responsibility for not addressing my marital problems earlier. I am not sure we should even be together. So in a way I feel responsible for the death of my marriage. I did try many times to talk with him. I even sat in front of him crying begging and pleading for him to address my concerns. I invited him to address his. He never would unless he was angry at me. But, I never thought that he would do this. So yes, I should have filed for D. Something. But, I will not take a co responsible stand for him going out and giving some other whore the attention that I have been pleading for for over a flippen decade and I would not go back to a MC who said that I should.

I have to agree, this MC doesn't seem very proactive in helping, rather making excuses. No one is perfect in a marriage, but cheating is never excusable.

I would be shopping for a new MC..You could call this MC on those words that she mentioned.

Your counselor may clarify in a way that makes you satisfied that she didn't mean to blame your part in the marriage for WH's A, in which case you may decide to continue with her for a while..

I would be prepared to fire this MC in an instant if she can't clarify her words to your satisfaction...

While I agree with bionicgal in a sense, only thing one can do is take care of his/her side of the street..

One can work on him or herself to improve communication, thinking, FOO issues etc, etc.

Whether or not the M survives, this work on oneself is a good thing..

A marriage or relationship is between two SEPARATE people and it isn't one person's fault that he or she is the best authentic person he or she can be but still ends up in a relationship or M with a total creep who cheats, lies, etc..

It can be hard to see the signs that a partner is a liar until enough time has passed and one has something invested in the relationship that makes it painful to leave..

Hopefully the work we do to strengthen ourselves mentally will serve us well in how we deal with finding ourselves in a relationship that is unhealthy or abusive..

[This message edited by doggiediva at 10:07 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

After finding out about my H's online activities and A we decided to do marriage counseling..

My WH is an angry un remorseful ass who blamed his cheating fully on the marriage, saying he wasn't getting enough attention at home and he had to look elsewhere..

I on the other hand felt like I was being asked to focus on the M to the point that I didn't have my own identity..

The first M counselor we visited together had an approach and words that made me feel like I was the worst partner ever and I ended up feeling like I was a poor excuse of a woman..

Marriage counseling IMHO can be damaging to the betrayed party unless and until the BS's feelings of resentment and betrayal ( as a result of WS's lies, A, financial infidelity, etc, etc) are satisfactorily dealt with by the WS who is remorseful and jumps at the chance to make amends...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 10:37 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

I think BSs respond to this issue based on their own personal relationship and orientation to systems vs individual thinking.

I will say, that in regards to the physical abuse analogy, that it is not comparable. Hitting someone is doing something "to" them. Adultery is not doing something "to" your spouse - it often happens wholly without regard to the spouse. Does it affect the spouse terribly? Yes, but my husband didn't have an affair to hurt me. It was his own sad show.

And in terms of other addictions, these are generally best viewed within a system as well -- either family of origin, or current life situation. Is there personal accountability? Yes - 100%, but while a marriage would not be responsible for a drug habit in most cases, there are generally personal interdynamics (enabling, denying, etc.) that accompany it, usually from FOO.

Again, we don't exist in a vacuum, and it isn't about blame.

There was an interesting thread in the General forum about this 50/50 stuff.

My point is that the marriage is 100/100. We (BS's) 100% own our marriage and what we bring or take away from it. Just like the WS does. We need to own everything we do 100%. We need to be putting in 100% to our marriage.

As far as marriage issues, I believe the "percentages" could be way different. If you are married to an NPD, for instance, I would believe that maybe 5% of the marital issues maybe the BS's "fault". KWIM? I mean, really, is our marriage issues about math problems or about owning our shit?

About your MC, MJ, if she actually used the words "co-responsible" I would definitely have a problem with that. When I was looking for a MC (and this was before I found SI) I called several and spoke to them on the phone. Kind of an interview. Asked them about their experience in infidelity issues. Asked them if they were pro reconciliation after infidelity. (Believe it or not, many aren't.) If I had been a member of SI I would know to ask more questions. Like, what they believe is the biggest cause of sexual infidelity? If they said "marital issues" instead of "someone being a selfish asshole", I would move on to another.

Here is the link to the thread about 50/50 responsibility: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=507556&HL=37529

the dymanic of a couple leads one person to shut down and not communicate and then the affair is them acting out

I get where she is* trying* to go with this, but this statement is evidence that she is not as well equipped to handle the aftermath of infidelity.

The dynamic of the M, isn't leading anyone anywhere. You are both the creators of that fancy "dynamic" called Marriage.

One part of the whole is not functioning properly. You could be the best communicator, the best Marriage partner on the planet and you could not have created a "dynamic" that would have prevented HIS A.

Treating the Marriage at this point, seems premature. IC for both would be a safer place to start sorting this out and doing so with an effective experienced counselor will definitely help the healing process for both of you.

The M, will have suffered damage to it's dynamic now though....because of the A, but to treat the Marriage without caring for the individuals that make up that M won't be more than a band aid.

I would table MC for a while, as I think you are still at the stage where the WS needs to accept personal responsibility for the damage that has been inflicted on your M and you will need some care to heal from the trauma.

Wishing you lots of luck finding the right person to help you and your ws heal.

t/j

The way I see it, there are two major schools of thought here on SI. One is that WS is a broken person and if he/she will just fix their s^it then everything will be ok.

I don't see it that way. I haven't seen many BS's here that don't "own" that they weren't perfect. And, what I see most often is that BS's want at least the WS to go to IC before they go to MC. But many, many BS's know they need to go see an IC, too. If they don't go to IC, most know that they absolutely need to go to at least MC. Or read many books. Learn from SI.

I don't feel I have seen any of the oldtimers here say that "if only the WS fixed their shit than everything will be ok". end t/j

What about you? You were in the marriage too and YOU did not have an affair. I think you have the answer. On to the next MC. Look for one who has special training in intimacy issues (intimacy as in emotional intimacy not just sex)

That said, in order for you to really reconcile, at some point you will have to examine the dynamic in the context of how you relate to one another and your communication. No one is perfect, no one does everything absolutely right.

This MC must have gone to the same psychology class as my MIL, who is a psychology professional and said to me "It sounds like you are trying to blame his childhood for what lead to the affair."

REALLY?

I agree...I am not responsible for H's actions. I didn't force him to do anything.

I think a lot of people believe this crappy line. I do not. I may have used to believe this before it happened to me but now...NO! I am not to blame and will never see it that way.

I think IC is more appropriate for one who has had a recent D-day..

As another poster said, You need to be on mental "terra firma" first, before processing or addressing the relationship problems..

In an ideal relationship you get in return what you give..

IRL though things are much much more wacky..One can be spinning his/her wheels giving it his/her all in a relationship and get crumbs in return..

It is not up to a counselor to automatically assume that there was a hole or an emptiness in the relationship that made the WS susceptible to have A..

The insight one gets into himself or herself in IC may help with living more happily in current relationship or in choosing future relationships that meet our important needs..

Nothing in the world, except running for the hills, is going to help when one lives with a complete jack ass who has no intention of taking a deep look within to understand why he or she lies, cheats, etc ...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 11:20 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

Yep, find a new MC. Sorry you had to experience that quackery. H and I had a moron MC initially, and he said something stupid about the fact that it wasnt necessary for me to know who the OP was. I thought I was going flip out on him when he said that. I stood up, told him him he was in no way helping us, that he was actually hurting our marriage and for him to suggest that I not be told the identity of the person THAT GAVE ME AN STD was insane. I told him we would NOT be back, and that I would NOT pay him for that session, and that he'd better not send me a bill, lol.

Now this is exactly how I feel:

I'd ask the MC if she felt the same way about domestic violence, or verbal abuse, or drug or alcohol abuse....are those shitty coping skills 'caused by the marriage'?

ETA: I think that as soon as the word 'affair' or 'infidelity' gets injected into the discussion, people alter their perception. But if you keep it framed as the abuse that it is, I think it's a lot clearer.

I mean, listen...if you two went to MC after he beat the living shit out of you, no MC in their right mind would tell you, "His choice to hit you was all his, but you helped contribute to a marital environment where he felt unsafe expressing his anger and so held it in until he acted out."

It sounds ridiculous...because it is.

I agree with every word.

And this:

I will say, that in regards to the physical abuse analogy, that it is not comparable. Hitting someone is doing something "to" them. Adultery is not doing something "to" your spouse - it often happens wholly without regard to the spouse.

I very much disagree with. Tell that to those of us given STD's by our spouses.

The way I see it, there are two major schools of thought here on SI. One is that WS is a broken person and if he/she will just fix their s^it then everything will be ok. Well, to me that is not realistic. We don't exist in a vacuum.

I agree with BionicGal on some of the points she's made here - we do NOT exist in a vaccuum and often times the marriage IS struggling due to serious issues such as sever lack of communication/affection/support. Now this is where I (respectfully) disagree - Yes, the BS CAN be responsible for a great deal of those issues in the marriage; however, the BS's actions CANNOT dictate somebody else's (read: WS's) integrity or lack thereof. Responsibility over what caused the affair itself lays wholely on the WS. There is a right way and a wrong way to do all things - and since we DON'T exist in a vaccuum, there are often times many right ways and wrong ways to do things. If a marriage is suffering due to problems (which can be caused by both spouses), then a potential WS should either a) explore and implement solutions to improve the marriage or b) see the marriage through to its legal end before pursuing an intimate relationship with somebody else or c) all of the above.

To me, the infidelity is a just another issue, albeit a GIGANTIC issue, which works to deconstruct the marriage even further and it rests squarely on the WS's shoulders. Perhaps he BS is a poor communicator and often times shuts down when difficult topics arise. He or she, taking responsibility for his or her role in the marital problems, may admit to contributing to the poor communication between the partners. Great, that is his or her flaw that he/she OWNS. Nothing the WS may have did or said in the marriage caused the BS to be a poor communicator, it is something that is inherent in him/her. Similarly, nothing the BS did or said could cause the WS to seek intimacy from an external source. That is the WS's flaw and he/she must OWN it.

Why does an affair have to be about the marriage at all?

If my H secretly goes out extreme skiing and breaks his legs, is that in some way related to our relationship dynamics?

What if he's taking too many pain killers for too long after surgery, did our marriage set the stage for that?

Or if he's addicted to World of Warcraft to the point where he loses his job. Did our marriage drive him into gaming, or was he vulnerable to that whether married or not?

Damaged people do unhealthy shit regardless of the state of their intimate relationships.

My WS came into our marriage emotionally sick (child abuse, both parents). The marriage was actually so close, happy, and functional that it shielded him from stress and shored him up. But it couldn't be some miracle cure. Eventually, the perfect storm happened and WH fell apart.

If OW and WH had spent their time together smoking pot and watching Wizard of Oz, would that be related to marriage issues or his issues?

Of course, WH and I can always grow as a couple, but the affair was about the individual, not the couple. . The fact that he "acted out" by having sex with OW instead of drinking heavily or getting in a fist fight or having a nervous breakdown doesn't mean that a better marriage would have prevented it.

The affair was a horrible coping mechanism, of course, and I would have preferred him to escape into extreme skiing. The A caused guilt and panic on top of all WH's FOO crap and stress at work. Eventually WH got suicidal. If he had killed himself to escape, would that have been because our marriage dynamic made him shut down?

[This message edited by sailorgirl at 11:42 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

The balance of give and take in our marriage was so much in WS's favor..If I had flawed moral, thinking and boundaries, I would have sought attention flattery, conversation from somebody outside the marriage..

There were many times due to WH's selfishness, self centeredness and disrespect for me that I questioned the wisdom of staying married to him...I never had an A though..

I agree,Sailorgirl, you hit the nail right ON THE HEAD...

I agree,Sailorgirl, you hit the nail right ON THE HEAD...

Yep, agreed!

Sailorgirl, I agree with you. The affair has very little to do with the marriage. I eventually figured out that it had very little to do with me, which is when I got over most of my feelings of rejection and self-consciousness.

One of the first things I said to my wife after I found out about the affair is that every marriage gets to a point like this. What I meant is that every marriage gets to a point where one spouse or both spouses is having serious and significant issues that leads them to consider ending the marriage.

The more I go to counseling and the more I talk to my friends and learn about their experiences of marriage, the more I believe that my marriage was very normal. The fact that infidelity could occur in a normal marriage with normal issues had simply never occurred to me. Now I understand that it would probably be easy to find issues in any marriage that could be pointed to as a cause of infidelity, and if infidelity did occur, it would be the quick, easy, and in my opinion, lazy route to explain what was happening. The underlying personal mental and emotional issue are far more significant and important. Those personal issues (on both sides) led to the marital problems, and in the case of the WS, their personal emotional issues led to the affair.

My wife and I had significant problems. Both of us were coping poorly with various issues, but the root cause of many of those issues was no one's fault. Sometimes, even the good things we did to try and deal with the issues made them worse. Some of my efforts to express love for my wife actually caused her to feel more guilty and angry. After the affair, I found out that my wife had never communicated very significant and important details about her perceptions and feelings over the years. The idea that a person could have an affair and want a divorce without ever having made it explicitly clear that they were having significant problems in their marriage completely blew my mind. Of course, even that problem is relatively normal. People have a hard time understanding what is happening to themselves, let alone to their spouse, and figuring out how to communicate when you don't understand what is happening can be truly difficult.

Of course, even if I can understand it, I can not take responsibility for it. She checked out on our marriage without even telling me. She did not communicate any of the significant emotional issues she was facing, and once I found out, I was desperate to help her. She would not let me help, which was just a continuation of the same unhealthy pattern she had followed for years.

[This message edited by endlessabsurdity at 11:53 AM, September 13th (Friday)]