SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I agree. Takes 2 to have a marriage. She's either all in or not. Right now she's not in your M and possibly trying to figure out how to keep both of you.

Good luck

Saveud. So sorry that you're here. A few points really stuck out at me...

" she said our marriage was over".

"She doesn't want to send NC letter"

Bigger than the gas lighting and blame shifting BS she is giving you. I'm so sorry but she has started to create a life with OM. Go ahead and file., but be prepared to follow through. You love your life....Of course.. You want to undo he mess...many many if us here have been there and can attest to it being an unfair fight if your the only one fighting to save the M

Sadmumma, I'd just say she says a lot of things when she's on the defensive (which is most of the time). That's not clutching at straws but I've just booked my (not ours - yet, anyway) first counselling session, which I'll need regardless of what happens next. You probably think I'm a fool but I'm not quite at the D stage yet. Let's see what happens when we discuss NC tonight, for one thing.

But you're right, I feel like I'm fighting alone right now - despite what she said to me yesterday - and that is far from fair. It's impossible.

She's flatly refusing transparency ('I won't live like that') and MC ('I'm not talking to anyone'). We haven't even got onto the NC letter yet but I have a feeling that will go the same way.

^^^ THIS ^^^^ Is very telling. She doesn't get it, and nothing is going to change if you don't have consequences for her actions. OK so you aren't ready to D. NONE OF US WERE. But what we were willing to do was risk the loss of our M to save it. Until she feels the pain, loss, and destruction she has caused, she isn't going to change anything.

Remember anything out of her mouth is not to be believed. No MATTER WHAT. ACTIONS are where it counts.

There are a few things that are absolutes for R to be successful.

1. Establishing and maintaining complete and total NC. THIS HAS TO HAPPEN. If she wavers on it, pack her a bag and send her on her way.

2. Complete and total transparency - Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing. She is hiding everything still. She won't even give you access to her phone, and when she comes home tonight and negotiates that you can have access to her phone, but she isn't sending a NC note, you can bet your sweet ass that she has a burner phone hidden someplace.

Without these two things established you will not R. Read the profiles of a few of us who have successfully R'd. Myself included. You will see a pattern of things we did and didn't do to make this thing work. Most of us stumbled a few times as well.

We give strong worded advice, because we know how damn bad it hurts. We also want to save you the same pain.

Call a Solicitor/lawyer, and find out your rights, and her obligations. This really does give you an idea of how things will play out, and can help you be strong on your demands for love and respect.

Don't be afraid of losing her, you already have. She didn't even give you the chance to save her, or your M. So now you have to fight with all you have.

keep reading, keep posting.

(((and strength))))

Like tushnurse said:

Don't be afraid of losing her, you already have. She didn't even give you the chance to save her, or your M.

Also, your WW is showing you who she is. Believe her. What you thought was someone so wonderful is now showing you who she is at her worst, at her very core. What wonderful person would stab you in the back like this and endanger you and your family in the process?

You need to get to a position of strength in your mind to be able to evaluate what your WW is showing you with her ACTIONS. Words are cheap and manipulative.

Our suggestions are not to sway your from going to R. They are to help you get out of the hole you are in and to a better position to protect yourself and your son and keep you from getting sucked into your WW's wicked maelstrom.

Also, I'm going to respectfully take a slight exception to adriana1980 comment about the OM being the "alpha" male. Saveus, this OM guy is three times divorced, right? That's someone who has a problem staying married. His last Ex picked up on your WW and OM having a fling. This guy goes for "sloppy seconds". They sneak around with their A. Is any of that really "Alpha" behavior? No, but it is the false illusion that he sells. Real Alphas would go out on their own, without fear of rejection, and make connections with other UNATTACHED women. And when they find out they are attached, they drop them like a hot potatoe. Now adriana does have a point about showing strength, and that is what you need to do but more for yourself and your son. I don't think your WW even recognizes what strength is, so don't place any expectations there for her to notice.

We've all been there and we are guiding you based on our experience. We are going to give you 2x4's as needed to keep you on track with your healing and recovery, then if R is even possible, the guidance to ensure it is real R. You do not want a false R to happen to you. But first things first, heal and take care of you and your son.

Saveus, A great benefit of this site is the availability of ongoing stories of those who have been down the path before you. Read them and heed them. They will inform you of the futility of a one-sided reconciliation attempt. Your WW hasn't gone no contact and shows no remorse. Your actions are facilitating her fence sitting and/or cake eating. Don't be manipulated.

Tush says it very plainly. Reed her comment until you really understand it. There's also thread for newbies you might find helpful.

[This message edited by Schadenfreude at 10:22 AM, May 1st (Thursday)]

Thanks again everyone. I really AM listening.

You don't have to do anything. There's no right or wrong here. There's no magic formula for fixing a marriage. Don't worry about pleasing anyone, least of all us.

It sounds like you're worried that making a mistake right now will cost you your marriage. Aside from physical harm or cruelty, that's not the case.

It takes two people to be married. Your wife is not one of them right now. It doesn't matter what the details are, she simply isn't willing to work on the marriage. Will this change? Maybe. Maybe not. You're in this horrible purgatory while she decides.

In the meantime, you can only work on yourself. Trying to discuss this with her will only irritate her. You can't compete with OM - he's a shiny new object. When you tell her that you love her, it probably confuses her, because she isn't feeling or acting very loveable right now. The 180 is only a tool that is supposed to help you focus on yourself and on your son. It's not going to change her opinion of anything.

Sorry you're going through this. I did six years ago. Not a place I ever want to be again.

The way you're feeling and reacting is utterly natural and does you credit - it shows you're a loving and loyal human being. A lot of what you're going through reminds me of the horrible months after my own D-day, and I'd like to repeat to you something my IC said to me (actually about 200 times over six months until I finally listened). She said 'LISTEN TO HIM'. That doesn't mean 'give a sympathetic ear'. When my husband said he thought our marriage was over, I pretended he hadn't said it, then that he didn't mean it, then that I could persuade him out of it. I should have listened to that information and acted on it immediately, and saved myself a year of hell. It may also have 'brought him round' - though these days I thank God I'm rid of him. This is a long process you can't rush, but the first stage is definitely being unable to believe what is happening. The good news is, this is the worst bit. I also totally identify with your feelings at the moment that the best outcome - the dream scenario - is 'R'. I felt that too. But I think what we're actually longing for is a return to the past, when this hadn't happened. I say this gently, please believe that, because I really, really identify with everything that you're saying.

@Red Sox Nation

Thank you. You're right about being stuck in purgatory. I hate feeling like I've done nothing wrong yet I've got to sit and wait for my wife to 'see sense'. But, of course, I don't. I can take care of me. And my son of course.

@crazynot

Thank you too. I know you're right, and trying to save me lots of wasted weeks/months/years hoping for something that can never return. I AM trying to listen, but my wife just isn't talking. Last night she opened up a bit and I took on board a couple of things she said. She has said she thinks the marriage was dead long before her A, though I can't help but think there is some truth here but really this is her defensiveness talking. Justifying her actions. That is totally her. But I can see how I could easily follow in your footsteps, despite your best efforts to make me see sense.

I slept badly again last night. Pretty much only from 10pm to 12.30am. On and off a bit after that but most of the night I spent downstairs, writing a letter to my WW.

The purpose of the letter is to put my feelings and emotions into cold, hard type (I may actually write it out by hand as I haven't done that for her in years) so she can't avoid it. Secondly, to express my love but also my sheer frustration at her, and to give her two choices: to leave and go be with the OM, or to commit once and for all to 'true' R. So far, when we've discussed this, even when I've tried to put my foot down and demand things like 100% transparency, she's side-stepped it or flatly refused to 'live like that'. I can hear how pathetic I sound. In a letter I thought I could express myself better, and make it clear what I need to happen if she IS going to commit to me/our M.

The real problem - as I've written in the letter - is that her A is still ongoing, as far as I'm concerned. She slept with him only 6 days ago. He's been texting his undying love and sounding more and more desperate ('Are you dumping me?' etc), saying he's been looking out at night expecting her to walk up to his front door. That kind of thing. My WW has not been very forthcoming about these texts - she deleted one yesterday and has briefly shown me others, but all the above I only saw at 6am this morning despite some irrational freaking out on behalf of my wife. I strongly suspect this is about 'invasion of privacy' rather than having anything else to hide, but of course I could well be wrong (and ought to assume I am). It did look, however, as if she hasn't replied in a long while, hence the OM's growing desperation. And bear in mind my WW believes I can read all her texts now, even without her phone.

As yet there has been no NC letter/email sent. She still wants to deal with this her own way (I know!! It's not her choice!!!), despite this being what she said she had to do on the Wednesday of week 1. I've put that as a condition in the letter. Oh, and we're likely to come face-to-face with him again tomorrow morning (or at least I am).

What I need to consider is whether to include an ultimatum (or whether it's clear enough already that I have).

Saveus,

I know why you've written a letter. You're trying to get through to her. You are trying to break her delusion. If only she could see things from a rational perspective. Every single word that you write is oozing pain and emotion.

It won't have the effect you're looking for. Been there and done that. EPIC FAIL.

I sent numerous letters in the early days to my ex firmly of the belief that this letter would be the one to snap her out of her delusion and make her realise what she's done/ doing. Most of my letters were written with tears rolling down my face. I bared my soul, questioned her choices, reminded her of what we had and begged.

What a fucking waste of time that was. I later saw some of the emails she sent POS where she discussed the letters with him. She considered them to be biased, irrelevant, desperate and weak. Any parts that she disagreed with or challenged her behaviour she got angry about. She said I was 'lobbying' her. The more I did it the more she switched off.

Please don't send it. It won't work

[This message edited by allatsea at 2:23 AM, May 2nd (Friday)]

Unfortunately allatsea is correct. There is no rationalizing with her. Just like there is no "nice her back". Won't work. If you want to write a letter to get out what you need to get out, fine. Do it for yourself though. Not her.

I know this is painful stuff, but have you given any thought to detaching? She's still not allowing transparency, which by the way happens in a healthy M naturally anyway so the privacy thing is total bullocks. She's not showing any remorse. IMHO you need to be ready to let it all go if there's any chance of saving anything here.

allatsea, yearsofpain25, I hear you both, I do. And I know I'm just repeating others' mistakes but I feel this is me, my life, and whilst it may well be a complete waste of time and emotions, I have to do this. I did do it for me first and foremost and, despite my posts here, you'll have to take my word that there is no begging and lots of telling her how it has to be. There's no alternative, other than separation/divorce.

I won't rush to send it (haven't even considered how I'll do that anyway) but as of right now I do think I will.

You must all be beating your heads against the wall right now. Join the club

savus, brother, you are going to do what you feel you have to do. We are still going to be here for you no matter what. But we are still going to try to give you our opinions and the best advise we can. I still wouldn't give her the letter. Just an opinion. I wish you luck with it. Shyte situation my friend. I feel for you.

Your problem here my friend is that you are being reactive to her behaviors instead of being proactive in your healing. In other words you are letting her call the shots here brother. STOP THAT !!! Look you know what it is you need in order to R. You have outlined these requirements to your WW, she thus far she has blatantly refused any of them. So you can sit there allowing her to continue making a fool out of you or you can stand up for yourself and fight back. We all know that you desire R, its very apparent that's what you want. But you need to remember that in order to R successfully one needs a remorseful WS. Shit your WW is not even regretful let alone remorseful. So she is going to continue stringing you along, see the OM whenever she feels like it, toss little bits of crumbs your way to keep you interested, and basically do what she wants to do. This is going on now. This is your reality pal.

What myself and the others are saying is that you need to stand up and throw up a huge stop sign. That's right bro, YOU need to stop her from making your life miserable. While we all agree that her behaviors suck, your the one who is allowing it to continue. Lets dissect this a little. She is caught up in the fantasy that is the OM, She can not or will not stop seeing the OM, OM is feeding her all of the usual bullshit lines that OM say. All this time you are at home holding down the fort. Don't think for one minute her last sexcapade with OM was a spur of the moment thing. That shit was planned long before it was executed. Come on now, she actually told you in advance she might not be coming home and I'll bet my left testicle her sister was/is in on this all along. So you sit there telling her what she must do, she balks and you do nothing. Time to stand up and toss her ass to the curb. Send her to the OM, that right pack her shit and send her off to him. But here's some news for you, he does not want her. Sure he wants to have no strings attached sex with her, but do you really think he wants anything else ? He wants things exactly how they are. He can call her when he wants to get his dick wet and send her off when he is done. And where does she go after pleasuring him ? Well back to you of course because as of now you wont stand up to her and toss her cheating ass to the curb.

So she will continue to fuck the OM on your dime. The OM will gladly accept banging your WW while you still hold down the fort paying all the bills and doing what needs to be done at home. And your misery will continue, in fact it will get worse. Much worse until a day comes when your gonna lose it all. There is only so much emotional torture a person can endure. And your breakdown will happen sooner or later. How and what happens varies. You might get lucky and only wake up in the looney bin or perhaps you will wake up in a jail cell, or maybe you wont wake up at all. But the reason this is going to happen is because YOU refuse to stop this. I'm going to give you the first piece of advice I ever got from my therapist. She said

"You cant control other peoples actions, but you do have control on how you react to them"

I think that is very sound advice, don't you ?

Saveus,

We are hear to offer advice based entirely on our own experiences and the results we got from doing the things we did.

You have to do what you need to do. Even with the hindsight I have now I still think I would send one or two letters. It was my way of ensuring that she knew how I felt. I never wanted to be accused of not fighting for our marriage. I can hold my head up high and look my children in the eyes and tell them that I did everything I could. One day even the exW may realise that everything I wrote was true.

I might choose to reword my letters and reduce the level of begging but I don't regret sending them even though I know they made no difference. She was already gone. So at least I feel I got my perspective voiced.

I also found myself sending her snippets of information from infidelity websites, psychology experts etc in the hopes she could see that she was acting in a textbook fashion and was blameshifting, re-writing the marriage and deluded. I even sent her a link about cognitive dissonance which she laughed at.

Ironically a few months later she told me that I was a narcissistic sociopath and was suffering from cognitive dissonance. I couldn't believe it. Projection at its worst.

Whatever you do, we'll be here. I've lost count the number of times I've been hit over the head by all these good people each and every time I went 'pain shopping' or breaking NC. The support is amazing.

I would add this, don't make demands you won't back up.

If you insist on transparency "or else!" make sure you back it up.

Don't say "you must stop seeing him," if you're not prepared to enforce consequences.

If you make a demand for an NC letter and she laughs at you, or simply says, "no, you can't control me," you have to be prepared to ask her to move out.

If you don't back up your demands, she will never take them seriously again.

I realize that she may have the dominant personality in your relationship. that doesn't matter. You don't have to go all alpha male if that's not really who you are.

However, you need to determine what you will put with if you are going to stay married. If you can't stand what is happening, you can simply say to her, "honey, I love you, but I can't live like this. If you want him, go get him. But I won't continue even another day sharing my wife. So go do what you must. But if you are not choosing me, I'm going to have to file for divorce. I'm sorry it's come to this. But I won't share my wife for even a day."

She'll say she needs time. That she doesn't know what to do. That she can't make her mind up on the spot like this. But you respond with, "I'm sorry, I won't share my wife for even a day. I can't give you time. I love you, but it's not fair to me."

Sure.. it may sound dangerous. But it's the only thing you can do. Otherwise she'll just drag you along while she's getting "I love you" texts from another man.

Tell me, it must have been brutal when you read his text to her "are you breaking up with me?" Man... I would have hit the roof.

You see? You need to determine what is acceptable for you. And then lay it on the line for her. If she doesn't budge, you need to move on. That is the only way she will even have a chance of coming out of the selfish fog she is in.

[This message edited by mike7 at 4:10 AM, May 2nd (Friday)]

I know what you mean about wanting to compose a full summary of, well, everything. I tried. We've all tried. And the letter will be a little different tomorrow when you try it again. That's good, though. This is all part of processing what has happened. It's natural to want to get back to where you thought you were in your marriage.

Whatever happens, though... Whether your marriage succeeds or fails... It will be different. There's no substitute for the work she has to do to be a good partner again.

You've obviously read a lot about this over the past two weeks. There are common elements to most of these stories. She's in what we call the Fog of an affair. She has invented an alternate reality in which you're the villain. This is how most partners justify an affair that they know is wrong.

But it's called the Fog because it's too thick to see through. Unfortunately, you're the last person she'll trust to guide her through it.

On the plus side, OM sounds rather pathetic, and now that the affair is exposed, he's becoming less appealing by the minute. So that's reason for hope. It sounds like he'll self-destruct if left to his own devices.

There's no substitute for your wife needing to discover all of this on her own. She can't be told about it. This isn't an easy road and it isn't a short road.

I don't think there's any point offering her a TripTik when she doesn't know where she wants to go. When it's time, she'll tell you. Transparency is a piece of the trip that's a long way from here. NC letters, I think, backfire more often than not.

But, yeah, I remember very well that need to get everything on paper. For me. Just so I knew I was doing the work. It won't fix the problem, but it has value. Yes, it will seem weak to her in her current state. It will annoy her. But your focus has to be on what you need right now.

I think writing letters is a Great idea, with caveats. The best reason to write a letter is for you. It helps synthesize your thoughts -- it is cathartic. Many many times posters have submitted drafts of such letters on this site and received critiques. Not the grammar type, but help in taking out the whining pleading, weak stuff.

Many times the result was sent to the WS and many times it ended up staying in cyberspace. In either situation it almost universally helped the BS in gathering their thoughts and focusing on how to interact with the wayward. I say start the exercise and get feedback.

[This message edited by crisp at 6:42 AM, May 2nd (Friday)]