SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

(((Wodnships)))

I see your point.....kinda agree with it.

When we know better we can do better.

As a kid I would ride in the back of a 1969 chevy truck going 55 mph for 6 miles on a county highway......time was 1977. No offense, no foul. My wife almost had CPS called on her for allowing our girls to stand up through the moonroof of a Toyota Camry, going less than 5 mph for 1/2 block to our driveway from the stop sign at the end of the block.

This "change" is what has motivated my walk with God.....my search for truths that don't morph as society does.

Two odd things I have noted.

I didn't think I felt like I was responsible for my dad abandoning me. I have learned I absolutely took at least partial credit for him leaving me. "Why didn't my Dad want me?" Was my thought.

I didn't think I felt like this sex talk was harmful. As I put any other child I know in this same sitch......it is harmful.

The old man who let us ride in the back of his truck was not mean, didn't wish harm on us....but I wouldn't do that with our girls today.

I don't think my parents wanted to harm me either.

My wife didn't think she was harming me at the start of her affair.

"We cannot grow past what we don't know."

My dad came from an alcoholic family......he is more lost in what real healthy intimacy is than I am. But to this day he proudly confess's "my dad's drinking had no affect on me".

I didn't think this sex talk profoundly affected me.......but it did.

So perhaps not abuse but strongly influencial?

Thanks for the counterpoint.

Oh.......and I LOVED riding in the back if that truck with my best friend and my older brother.

I had one of the greatest childhoods a boy could ask for.......dead end country road, lake at end of road, woods to explore and build forts in, cattle and tractors and go-carts, grandpa and nana next door. Fishing and a summer long sun burn (yep, skin damage and high risk cancer exposure.....but we didn't know better).

God is with us all.

I'm going to throw out there that intent may not come into play if a child figures out something is not quite right.

When I was 11 I saw my Dad making out in the park with his OW. I'm sure they didn't INTEND for me to see this but it happened. And I knew something was wrong. Dads and OW shouldn't go together. So that uncomfortable feeling stayed with me a long time.

fast forward to me catching hubby in the park doing the same thing and you can imagine how these events heaped on each other. Because I didn't know what to do with my 11 year old feelings they resurfaced again years later. Didn't matter the intent of either act. In my head they were wrong.

Sure, we can attribute these actions to broken people that had nothing to do with me. But everyone has a value system - even children, they're actually pretty black and white - so when this happens to young people the confusion can be profound and we need to honor that.

Your visualization techniques are something I do in IC as well. All ages of myself help me, although i haven't yet pictured my 80 year old self yet. I hope that you are offering compassion to that young boy, whatever he felt. You're the last person to put yourself in victimhood. But a person does need to look at their experiences and figure out how they were shaped by them.

As a kid I would ride in the back of a 1969 chevy truck going 55 mph for 6 miles on a county highway......time was 1977. No offense, no foul. My wife almost had CPS called on her for allowing our girls to stand up through the moonroof of a Toyota Camry, going less than 5 mph for 1/2 block to our driveway from the stop sign at the end of the block.

This actually further illustrates my point. When I rode in the back of my father's pick up I always thought we were going so fast, but looking back on it now it took us a lot longer to get where we were going.

But now we have a law. It tells us that it was far to dangerous so we can't do it. That's not new information. It's no more or less dangerous now then it was 50 years ago. Do you really think our parents weren't aware of the danger if there was a crash? You, me and thousands of others did it without harm. But let there be a couple of accidents and get some media attention and suddenly it becomes a damaging act. We better make a law. And then years after that law every "now knows" how dangerous it was.

How many children died riding in the back of pick-up trucks? That's the real core of the question. Neither of us even knows the stats. Because that's not what it's about.

This is only relevant to your question about it being abuse or not. As I said before in the end what matters most is how you were effected. Give it any label you want.

((((blakesteele))))

I would consider this abuse. The fact that they were aroused and stayed in the room after points to them having used the experience for their own gratification somehow.

Parents can teach children about bodies without showing their own intimately. There are books and videos for that sort of thing. You were taught an extreme lack of boundaries. You deserved protection and respect, neither of which you received in this incident. Of course, this is my opinion. You do need to see how it affected you personally.

Of course, parents aren't perfect and we do hurt our kids unintentionally. That's why it's so important to learn as much as you can if you've reached a certain level of awareness. Just yesterday I read about something that I've been doing that may be harming my kids. I sometimes ask them to give hugs to grandparents and other family members. I see now that it should always be their choice and should get no pressure to hug. Now I know and I will correct my actions.

We're getting into the stage of recover where we look back at childhood stuff. It is more difficult that I had imagined it would be. I'm also seeing that harm can also come from others, so I've started having safety talks with the kids. We do it once a week now, and I pick a video or topic we can discuss. I've realized that secrecy in my own FOO has caused way too much pain and confusion. I refuse to let it go on any more. And one of the nice things out of our talks is that I'm learning more about them too. Kids want our time and our respect. And that includes their right to be taught by us in a healthy way.

I am very concerned at what that CSAT has told you....to the point where I wonder if he/she should be reported. They are going to cause many couples a lot of problems. I actually don't understand how they could have made it through their training with the views they hold. I'm glad you left this person behind.

[This message edited by sadone29 at 9:50 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

I totally get your point Wodnships.

I just wonder if I HAD said yes to what my parents offered.....touching them it getting naked myself.....when does that line get crossed? What constitutes incest? Touching your dads penis or moms vagina?

This is where I fault man-given guidelines.....left strictly to our own accord we often feel our way to action.....not act our way to feeling.

Is this thought process similar to that employed to get to adultery? A person feeling they are just friends, feeling they are in control and know best? Feelings leading them to further actions?

I also get your point of labels.....

At the end of the day wrong is wrong.

What my parents did was wrong. Parents have a task to shepard their children.....and to do that in healthy ways requires more than just feeling your way into acton.

This is why my wife and I are learning to do things "intentionally".

Part of that process is to honor and recognize our feelings.....express those feelings to each other.....and then and only then act on those feelings.

It is apparent to me that I have done a good job at avoiding and repressing some feelings while foolishly acting immediately on others (that dang teenager in me ).

Good points......thought provoking.

Peace.

(((Sadone29)))

Almost out of battery on iPhone!

Thanks for your support. We also have learned it is necessary for us to expand our knowledge base with our girls......become more intentional parents as well as intentional spouses

Peace

I am so, so sorry Blakesteele. I would call it highly inappropriate, and yes, abuse on some level. You are courageous to bring it up and face it head on.

Blake, here is what I have learned about sexual abuse:

1. It doesn't have to be touching.

2. The intent of the abuser DOES NOT MATTER

What matters is:

1. Whether you as the victim were left with that "ick" feeling after it happened; or have that feeling now.

2. Whether you as a victim developed distorted views of sex and intimacy as a result of what happened.

3. Whether you as the victim had important boundaries violated.

All of the above happened in your case.

My father was a seriously fucked up dude. He is mentally ill and an abuser. However, sexual abuse was on my radar. Here is what went on in my house:

Dad walked around naked until we as kids were too old, I would say I was maybe 8.

He never closed the door to the bathroom when he was in it.

There were sex toys left around the house as well as playboy magazines.

Dad talked about sex a lot, but usually in a really negative way, like weirdly accusing people of incest, or ranting about homosexuality.

When I began developing breasts he made jokes about them.

I recently found out that he took my younger sister bra shopping and had her try the bras on in the car while he was in there. I don't think he asked her to show her her breasts or anything that overt.

My parents had loud sex when I was in the next room and awake.

Combined with this my parents never discussed our developing bodies with us or sex. So we had this messed up highly sexualized energy around us; but no understanding of it. My sex education came from tv and movies.

What happened to me is absolutely sexual abuse. The therapists I have spoken to are unequivocal about this. What happened to you is also sexual abuse. I developed severe body image issues as well as problems equating sex with love. It sounds like you also developed long standing forms of sexual dysfunction as a direct result of the way sex was introduced to you.

I'm so sorry it happened.

[This message edited by Althea at 10:15 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

double post - sorry!

[This message edited by Althea at 10:17 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

Whether this was all intentioned or not, it seems that this does cross the line into abuse.

I mean I grew up in house where we were not ashamed of out bodies, and you either had one set of parts or the other. No need to hide, or be uncomfortable. We also were raised with an openness in regard to what sex was, how it all worked, but never ever ever shown the intimate times. That was reserved for private places.

My parents were very loving toward each other, and yes we witnessed my dad grabbing my moms ass, or boob once in a while, and they hugged and kissed in front of us. That seems normal.

However seeing them naked together in their bedroom. That's just icky. I would never think that would be ok.

Now my H and I too have raised our kids in a similar way you have one set of parts or the other. We don't hide our bodies, you need to ask me a question when I'm in the shower fine come on in. HOWEVER They also know if mom and dad door is closed DO NOT BOTHER Us.

My 14 yo DD gets grossed out when we hug and kiss, but she says that's better than having parents that hate each other, or don't show affection.

You however had a brush with abuse, and no matter how well intentioned was damaging to you on some level. I mean with all the therapy, and digging you just now are realizing this happened. You buried that shit deep for a reason.

I hope your therapist helps you figure out a way to explore it, deal with it, and move on. Kudos to your Wife for being non judgemental and encouraging you to explore your past, and your feelings.

No worries, blakesteele. My past CSA is something I have dealt with and have healed from.

I just wanted to say at no time is it appropriate for a mother to suggest to her 10 year old child that he could/should touch her aroused(or otherwise) vagina. Well intentioned or not.

Do you feel this is abuse, blakesteele? Would you feel it was appropriate to bring your child into your bedroom and have that same talk with her and your wife? Including the show and tell? Im assuming not. Why would you feel it was any different for that 11 year old blakesteele?

[This message edited by confused615 at 11:09 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

I just wonder if I HAD said yes to what my parents offered.....touching them it getting naked myself.....when does that line get crossed? What constitutes incest? Touching your dads penis or moms vagina?

If you having touched them would have been abusive then them offering in itself was abusive. Similar to what Athena pointed out above. But like I said the label is less important then your healing.

This is where I fault man-given guidelines.....left strictly to our own accord we often feel our way to action.....not act our way to feeling.

This is perhaps the most profound thing in this tread.

This goes for our own actions as well as laws. Its a discussion it itself.

As a member of your parents' generation, and as a hippy in my son's eyes, I, too, would chalk what your parents did up to '60s excesses. If this was all they did, it sounds like they genuinely wanted to educate you, not abuse you. But ...

If my parents had done this to me, I would have freaked out - it would have been traumatic to me.

Even if your parents intentions might have been good, it was an incredibly awful mistake, and a terrible violation of all sorts of boundaries. Intentions are one thing. Actions are different, and these actions crossed all sorts of lines that shouldn't be crossed.

Also, your response - thoughts, feelings, LT effects - are crucial to your life. Whether we call it abuse or not, I think most kids would have sustained damage from this. Identifying and recovering from that is important.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:36 AM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

This is where I fault man-given guidelines.....left strictly to our own accord we often feel our way to action.....not act our way to feeling.

Sadly, this is a truth I uncovered as part of my journey away from porn.......and NOT long-standing wisdom of blakesteele.

It is from this realization that I stopped the "How could you?" questions to my wife. I KNEW how my feelings led ME to destructive actions. The whole "log in my own eye" thing.

Nice that you recognized it as important as it is.

This lead me to the truth of how important healthy fellowship and reaching outside of yourself to grow.

Thanks for the kind support.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 12:28 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

Treading carefully because I don't want to re-traumatize any survivors of CSA.

I think your recent recall of your parents (mis)guided adolescent sex talk bears adult sharing -- and validation -- within the safety of your Christian counseling with your wife present.

But I second Wodenship's warning about labels.

And the wisdom of nueroscience: “neurons that fire together wire together.”

Blake you have a tendency to repeat/type your personal narrative over, at length. [This is how we all come to terms with personal trauma -- we repeat it until the trauma (hopefully) loses it's emotional charge.]

I want you to find peace with this new puzzle-piece of personal narrative.

But I would caution you to give it more POWER than it ultimately deserves in your personal narrative. (Your goatee/RA story was a key point in your post-A growth & boundary solidification. But there are times you seem to self-flagellate.)

What's my point?

“neurons that fire together wire together.”

Don't turn your sexual past into one long negative label. Don't create a negative rut in your neural pathways. Don't turn your sexual past into one long shameful narrative.

Remember to include sexual highlights and periods of intense joy.

Sex within a committed partnership can be both fun AND intimate!

Unsure of duration......but more than 15 minutes and less than 30 minutes.

Don't let 30 minutes of your past ruin your present or future.

Thank you so much iWantDoOver.

Not only for this post but for reading me so well....must have read a few of my other posts.

You mentioned ruts.

"Ruts are nothing more than graves with the ends kicked out."

I, too, am aware of the cycle you speak of.....also how a brain gets re-wired.

I have grown much in the past 21 months. I will find my way through this without repeating old cycles or becoming a victim.

Peace.

IWant:

Love your response. Eloquently put.

Blake, for my own selfish reasons, do you mind elaborating on this a little bit? May be a t/j:

It is from this realization that I stopped the "How could you?" questions to my wife. I KNEW how my feelings led ME to destructive actions. The whole "log in my own eye" thing.

Struggling with "how could you" today, and was hoping it might help.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 2:21 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)]

I tried in as many ways as I could to see it wasn't abuse and it's sick and twisted on their part! If a 10 or 11 yr child were to tell an adult the exact story you just told us. Those parents would be under arrest and thst child in child protective services until they can determine if the child could go with family.

I cannot even imagine my parents doing this to me. Weird doesn't even begin to describe it 😣

I don't know why and I might never know why . As a young child around 7- 9 yrs old I could remember cringing around certain men. Just the way they smiled at me and said hi gave me that scary feeling in my gut that they were pervs.

I would love to know why at such a young age did I already know this? There was a guy in particular in his 40's, married to my mom's friend. He gave me the creeps every time they would visit us! I would rush to my room to avoid saying hi.

My mom would apologize to them saying I was rude etc...

He always acted like he loved kids since his wife could not have any (thank God) well once he asked me where the bathroom was and I was like ??? You've come here like 50 times why would he ask me. So I pointed and he said " no take me" so I nervously walked far ahead of him and opened the bthroom door and he went in. As I turned around he was already sitting on toilet and stuck his arm out the door and pulled me by the wrist and with his other hand went up my dress and in slid his hand under my panties and gave my butt a squeeze and said "thank you" with a big smile. I literally froze and then ran to my room. I NEVER told my mom. But I avoided him 1,000% after that. Soo 30+ yrs later my mom tells me " you won't believe who just got sentenced to 20+yrs in prison for molesting kids ?? Yup it was him. He molested like 5+ Nieces through out the yrs and someone finally spoke up.

My mom was so sure he was innocent and sending him bible verses and prayers!!! My mouth just exploded and I told her the entire story and her jaw dropped asking why in the hell didn't I tell her when I was little? Fear, fear of not being believed.

I've had creepy teachers that loved us 10 yr olds to a

Sit on his lap and constantly rubbing our backs.. It would give me panic attacks and I was the only one who knew that this teacher knew he was a pedophile. He never tried that with me.

Sorry for the rambling but as I was reading your story I thought this was out of some crazy book. Like this can't be real!?

This is A LOT for you to start to take in. Take your time, talk to your IC.

Great post IWantDoOver. I remember soon after DDay, I started getting flashbacks from my childhood. One memory was of my dad taking us out while he got drunk and almost crashed us into a house on the way home. I had to run it in my mind repeatedly until I felt like it was done. We never spoke about it in our family, so I never dealt with it.

It's difficult to know when it goes on too long. Just recently, I found something new out about H. It really messing with my mind. I was feeling dissociated from reality, and I kept saying that I felt the world was unreal or alien. Then I'd go through hyper vigilance and all I could concentrate on was my racing heart. But, I'm starting to feel more 'normal' again, so maybe it was just a part of assimilating the new info.

And blakesteele, I definitely know about being too hard on yourself! I've been talking about that in the spouses of SA thread. I have unrealistic expectations of myself, whereas I think others are perfectly right in whatever they feel. Slowly realizing that I'm not God. Life will go on if I make mistakes. And indeed, I make even worse ones when I think so rigidly.