SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

One of the early bombshells to explode was that the girlfriend who recommended AM was a marriage counselor, and justified it by saying it helped her own marriage by convincing her that her husband wasn't so bad compared to the men she met on AM.

Wow!!! That is the worst MC I have ever heard of. I'm enraged. I agree with the others. Report her.

Very sorry you are here but glad that you have found us. You have been getting some excellent advice mhca. I would like to add, is this "friend" still in contact with your wife? Because this "friend" is certainly not a friend to your marriage. In order to move forwards with R, if that the direction you end up going in, I would say she has to go NC with the "friend" too. She's an MC and she fucks up marriages. Nice!

Does sound like your WW was/maybe is on her way out the door. Here's a couple of links that you should read up on and keep in your back pocket. You may not have to go 180 yet, but you should know what it is and keep it in your back pocket for now. t is designed for you to detach and can be found under BS FAQ here:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

And more 180 info under the target thread here:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=232785

I would also recommend reading these target threads in the Just Found Out forum:

Tactical Primer

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=235051

Great Posts for Newbies to Read

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=361740

Boundaries and Consequences 101 for all new BS

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=385631

Before You Say Reconcile...

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548

yop

The more I think about that MC, the angrier it makes me.

Do you realize how wrong it is if that MC was getting some kind of referral payments. I have no idea if AM does that, but a lot of website pay for referrals. Nice scam this MC possibly has going on.

MHCA,

I understand your pain. My wife was on AM for 20 months before I found out. She was directed to it by one of her BFF's who was in our wedding party. She used to send my wife dick pics of the men she was fucking, guess my wife couldn't resist or wanted to one up her with better dicks. If you get a chance, out every one of those assholes that you can to their wives.

Glad you found SI. It saved my sanity.

Am I the only one that has never heard of this site before? I am looking on it now for WH.

MHCA, since the BFF threw a grenade in your marriage, you should at least return the favor and tell her betrayed Husband what his wife is up to.

Everyone, thanks so much for your thoughtful advice. I've been in a sea of emotion shifting back and forth and being torn apart. It's good to hear from people who want to help and have some perspective.

The marriage and family counselor who recommended AM (I'll call her MCGF) is really the motivation for me posting here on SI. WW and I were gradually coming together after DD#2 (April). She answered my questions for the most part, though didn't volunteer much or help me much in my inquiry. But it was something. We had some hysterical bonding which was fun, and it looked to me like we might have a chance.

About 10 days ago we were talking and I asked her "Why won't you tell me the name of MCGF? I don't even know her, what's the problem?" I was thinking I'd like to look at MCGF's web site and see if there was any weird new age psychological principles she advocated. I also had a strong need to know the name so I understood the story of the affair well enough to heal.

WW said that the conversation was in confidence and didn't want to "betray" MCGF by revealing private conversation. She said that MCGF was just a friend and they'd had a few drinks and it wasn't MCGF's fault anyway. So I got upset and said it was a bad decision not to tell me, and that it drove a separation between us and it was hard to understand her priorities.

She then said the words that will ring in my mind, maybe forever:

"I will not tell you the name, and if that ends the marriage, I'll be sad."

I was shocked. I said, "It just might" and walked off.

About an hour later I came home. She asked if I would keep the name a secret and I said yes. She told me.

It was the name of a friend. I know her, and I know the husband. I've coached her kids.

So another lie exposed (she told me that I didn't know this person intentionally to keep me from figuring out who she is.) Another betrayal (MCGF knows me and should have foreseen what this would do to me.)

WW created another threat to destroy the marriage instead of meeting my need to know what happened.

But wait, it gets worse. Over the next few days I noticed that I had said several times that what MCGF did was "wrong" and it was my right to blame MCGF for that. I noticed that WW kept defending her by saying the A was her own decision (true enough) and that what MC did was "gray" (not true for anyone who expects to be married to me) and she blamed me for black and white thinking.

I was so upset. I asked her, "Would it be 'wrong' for me to recommend AM to our DS after he got married in case his marriage got in trouble?" She said it would be "inappropriate." She couldn't bring herself to say it was "wrong." It was as if she's swimming in a sea of gray where nothing is right and wrong.

Only later did she finally admit to me that these things are in fact "wrong" but kept saying how upset she was that I pressed the issue so hard without allowing her to retreat and wait for our (real) MC to intervene. She kept saying that she was upset and felt pinned down and that she can't think in times like that (so I guess I'm supposed to give her a pass for whatever BS she says in times like that?)

Up to that point I'd wanted to be close to WW. I wanted to touch her and talk to her and have sex and all that. I've been nervous that she'd regress, and of course there wasn't much trust there.

But now I feel numb and can barely stand to look at her. I feel totally out of love. It's like I'm starting a 180 but not on purpose, it's just natural. I took my ring off a few days ago, can't stand to wear it. I'm thinking about life alone and coming to accept what that might look like. I look around our beautiful house and look at our fantastic children but I can't visualize holding it together.

All this started because she wouldn't tell me what MCGF did was "wrong."

and she blamed me for black and white thinking.

My God, I got almost the exact words from my wife. Hers were that life is full of colors and not everything was black and white like I thought it should be.

I knew right then and there it was not her talking, I was hearing the words of the OM coming out. Those were not her words, they were the crap the OM was feeding her.

Your wife is in a very defensive mood, but I have seen a lot worse defensive moods. Your wife might be worried you will do something to the MC.

Until your wife really gets it, she wont say the word WRONG.

I always like turning the questions around. Ask your wife if she thinks it would be WRONG if you were the one who signed onto AM and not her.

Are you going to discuss all of this with your real MC?

While now my WW does admit what she did was wrong, before DD#2 she resisted any kind of judgement, at one point saying "I don't see why you think what I did was such a big betrayal."

This was during false R when I thought the affair was over, and had never resulted in sex, but at the time she said it she had started having sex with the OM.

She also resisted telling me the names of the other OM she met AM, saying "it wouldn't be fair to them." I have the names of the main players but I have to take her word that for some of them she never learned their names.

Last week she said she didn't want to say these other people were wrong because she was raised a Christian and shouldn't judge other people. Never mind she judged the hell out of me as she told me what a shitty husband I was last year.

The way she twisted her ethical framework makes me sick. I used to think of her as such a solid, earnest person.

You are at war. You have to expose her friend to her husband now.

nuance: You are at war. You have to expose her friend to her husband now.

WW wouldn't tell me the name unless I promised to keep the information to myself and not use it. Maybe I should have taken a harder line but I was desperate and beaten down and accepted her offer.

I did this with the main OM's identity too. I believe she is currently faithful and I'm not sure if the other betrayeds would want to know given that I think all the affairs are over.

I believe that I have a right to contact these people but so far (unlike her) I've kept all my promises and always told the truth. I don't want to renege on a promise without deep consideration, or maybe after something like her breaking NC. If we move to D I might go scorched earth and tell everyone, not sure.

[This message edited by mhca at 4:57 PM, June 13th (Friday)]

I am sorry you are here but you need to get your head out of your a**. " she only told me after I promised to not tell".

She made a promise to you to forsake all others. Did she keep her promise? Was not her promise greater than this promise of exposing the other players? You do not owe her loyalty at this point. Was she loyal to you?

kenny55: I get you. I'm still conflicted though. Two questions:

#1: How will exposing help me right now, vs. holding exposure as an option to be used later? Certainly pulling the trigger now will escalate the situation to DEFCON 1 but I'm not sure if that helps me.

#2: Do I have a duty to the other betrayeds to tell them, or is this optional? I'd hate to tell someone just to have them reply "I wish you hadn't told me that."

There might be other coming who can answer that better than me. Exposing takes some of the "shine" off the affair that it sounds like you wife still has." I didn't think you would take it that bad". She still sees this as all fun. If it was not disgusting why would exposure hurt? The one about the other spouse is one I have strrugled with myself. I had an employee who cheated on her husband for almost half ot their 30 year marriage. I saw her get in the OM car. I was able to listen to their calls w/o them knowing because this was part of the job requirement. I have not told. I have seen ehr pictures on Facebook and they look happy. I have met him a couple of times and found him to be a good person. I do not know if he would like to know or not? I would want to know. I found out years later that my WW was still seeing the OM after she had commited to reconciliation. It took me down to losing my job. Betrayal is brutal.

MHCA, when you tell the betrayed Husband it will cause fallout, your wife will get to see that bad ideas have bad consequences, your wife may feel betrayed that you broke a promise,--- good! you can then tell her you weren't doing wrong that it was grey, I'll wager she won't like being on the receiving end of things,Perhaps this would be the start of her getting it. but most of all telling the other Husband is the right thing to do, it doesn't matter what your reason is, it is the right thing to do.

WW wouldn't tell me the name unless I promised to keep the information to myself and not use it.

I did this with the main OM's identity too.

Actually, Kenny makes a good point. If your wife doesn't think what she did was so wrong, or disgusting, what is the problem with you talking to her friend MC?

What is so wrong with you talking to these OM?

Contradictions all with the WW. Seen this so many times before.

Says one thing and then another.

Call her out on that one. If not so bad, what is wrong with a nice "friendly" chat with MC friend and the OM.

As for telling the OM wife or wive's, you would have to find their numbers first I assume.

I never had to deal with that because the OM was twice or maybe three times divorced before he ruined my life.

As I stew on the "expose or not" question, I'll throw out a few more thoughts:

* I think she wants R pretty badly, but her shame and desire to rugsweep keep her from going all in the way I want her to do before I trust her enough to start R. I tell her I'm not going to be a chump again, that she needs to earn my trust, but I don't see decisive action from her.

* Her family would disapprove of D pretty badly. She's one of five siblings, none of the others have had a D.

* She's in IC but lied to her IC about the A until DD#2. Likewise of course she lied to our MC until I uncovered the truth. I don't know how effective her IC is. She says that it helps.

* She likes to act as if everything is fine, happy demeanor etc until I insist on talking about the A. Then she gets sad. Luckily she doesn't run away from the conversations anymore but it still seems like I do all the initiating and drive the conversations.

* She complains that I want her to do reading and that I'm not being fair when I say she's not "getting it." I think she reads but doesn't really internalize the messages (books include Not Just Friends, After the Affair, etc.) I think it's painful for her to really think about what she's done and so she doesn't want to let the messages in the books to sink in. She tells me that "I learn differently than you, the self help stuff just doesn't work for me." This pisses me off.

* In the reading she keeps on talking about the parts that say we should do fun things in addition to hard things. I tell her I'd like to stop bleeding first.

* Until about a week ago I told her that I loved her several times a day. After the latest explosion where she protected the girlfriend at my expense I find myself unable to say it. And I'm starting to get used to not wearing my ring. I guess this means gravity is pulling me towards D but it's not conclusive yet.

Mhca,

First of all, I agree with those that said your wife still thinks that this A on AM site was a fun thing and has some sense of entitlement that it was really no big deal, just a little girl fun.

The reasons I think you should out the friend (counselor) are as follows:

(1) what she did was unethical, although she would claim your wife was her client and her job was to help your wife, even in a way that hurt you. Im not agreeing with that, but that is what she would probably claim.

(2) her husband deserves to know what his wife did. I am sure you would like someone to have told you rather than think your marriage was fine.

(3) you need to blow up this friendship between your wife and this woman BIG TIME , so she does not give your wife any more "free advice". It is disrespectful for your wife to have any contact with a woman who advised her on how to cheat on you.

(4) this will show you wife she is not in total control here, and that you are not going to put up with this shit anymore.

Yes, she will get mad. Guess what, were you happy when you found out she was banging another guy. There needs to be some consequences here.

MHCA, Your Wife doesn't want to recover badly enough to overcome her shame in discussing things, She wants to rugsweep, this leads not to recovery but to reoffending, she needs to understand the "why" Why did she think it is okay for a married woman to date and understand the damage she has caused to the marriage. MC and IC are of no use when advice is based on falsehoods, She complains about reading assignments (not Getting it) She complains about you saying she's not getting it, Again Not Getting it. She wants to do fun things while her husband is like a man skinned alive, again not getting it. Tell her to move out and in with her parents, tell her parents why you are asking her to move out, She needs to start getting it or you will just be an angry man waiting to divorec

She likes to act as if everything is fine, happy demeanor etc until I insist on talking about the A. Then she gets sad. Luckily she doesn't run away from the conversations anymore but it still seems like I do all the initiating and drive the conversations.

Do you still need questions answered...what do you want to talk to her about.

If there are actual unanswered questions, have her write it all out. Have her write a timeline out for you to read.

Writing is easier for some WS than talking.

Tell her the shame or embarrassment will stay between you two and no family members will know of this...as long as she is willing to do everything it takes to fix this problem.

And yes, it was and still is a problem. And there can be no rugsweeping.

Hi

Welcome to SI, I am sorry you had to find us...but glad you did.

I just wanted to give you my experience with telling the OBS (other betrayed spouse).

I did not tell my husband I was going to tell. I called him and met him 5 minutes later down the street from where they lived.

I exposed and further exposed a weekend they had planned to take.

When we began R (at 5 months after dday) we talked about me telling the OBS (um...and many others, I was kinda bat-shit - crazy)

He asked if I told people to hurt him or if I told for myself.

I explained my need to tell, nothing to do with hurting him.

He was sad, because I was so hurt, but he never once questioned who I told or why again. He took responsibility for his actions and never tried to protect anyone, including himself.

We are 7 years out. Have reconciled...but only because we both worked our asses off and he was remorseful.

Your wife isn't there yet. Her ONLY concern right now should be your pain, healing and her need to make it right.

Protect yourself, she is not safe for your heart right now.

(((hugs)))