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Your WW is not even close to remorseful. No, no, no, and no. You cannot work on a marriage without a committed partner and your WW is not committed right now. She's focused on doing damage control for herself and wants to rug sweep and also most likely to continue the affair. She is not digging into her why or understanding the gravity of how she has hurt you.

Focus on you right now. Step back and watch her actions--forget her words. And please consult with a lawyer to figure out your options.

You have to define your boundaries and be willing to set consequences and then enforce them if she breaks them. But right now, focus on taking care of you and let her worry about the state of the marriage. You can't solve this alone and that's what you're trying to do right now. I get it -- you're hurt and you want to repair the damage. It takes a while for the shock and reality of it to set in. But you will be so much better off when you reclaim the power for what happens.

[This message edited by norabird at 12:23 PM, June 23rd (Monday)]

RE: I want the truth. I want an honest wife. I have told her I would bare my soul. If she asks me ANYTHING, I will answer it truthfully even if it hurts me/her/others. I expect the same and don't know how to get it or even if she is giving it if it's the whole truth.:

Brother, we all do, we all want the truth, the problem with the truth if you want to stay with this woman is you will eventally hate the truth and the truth is going to expose nerves you didn't think you had. You will feel so betrayed there will be no excape, she will tell you things they did, thoughts and feelings and passions she has that you would want for yourself, if they did things you never did together your trust and respect for her will go to negative 100000000. Be very carful what you ask for, my wife cheated on me a few times and is now starting to tell the truth, she is now starting to try and tell me how the OMs "were", so I could do better (BARFS)..fucking madness. Look, we area all ill with these cheaters, they are tainted, they are not trustworthy, most will not renew vows or will never change. Think about that. If what she did to you was so horrible forget about the truth, it will only harm you. Consider moving on, keep your ego in place and make a stand for honorable living. Good luck, write to me anytime.

I wish I could say something to make you feel better. When the details come out, they are like living knives in your flesh, they will never really go away,at least not for me. The details of the affair that killed me from the inside out (that is what It felt like to me), still hurt like hell, and it has been five years. I still have the 'anniversary' dates encoded in my body: I get especially nervous around July/August every year now, and that's when it started for me. I know, I know, the details, the back of the pick up, the shaking your hand, the 'have fun' innocent trust, the deception is so horribly horribly cruel. I have my own details that won't go away, like you have yours.

And I also understand your desperation to make it ok, to reconcile. I am in that boat too. I forgave my WBF before he even admitted it to me! He admitted it AFTER I told him I forgave him! That is how desperate I was to make it OK.

Try to hold onto yourself, to all the beautiful and wonderful things you have in the world. I cannot say there is light at the end of the tunnel because I am still in that tunnel, but enough people here say there is, so I am trusting in that light. But it's not easy.

And she probably has little comprehension of what she's caused. I do hope and pray for your sake she may come to know and understand, and that reconciliation is possible, but I am too much in a mess myself to see your situation with any clarity.

So so sorry for your pain. Hope it at least helps to know you are not alone.

Jomarion - I too am sorry for you. You sound like a wonderful person and your kind words for me actually mean a lot. The old adage misery loves company couldn't be more apropos at this point. I feel like those that browse this board and those that respond are sharing in each other their pain and in doing so are lessening the hurt. I actually feel better when I'm responding or venting or airing here.

And she probably has little comprehension of what she's caused. I do hope and pray for your sake she may come to know and understand, and that reconciliation is possible, but I am too much in a mess myself to see your situation with any clarity.

We just had that discussion. She feels remorse and regret. I don't think she comprehends just how bad it is for me. I'm sure she feels bad. Feels guilty. Feels ashamed. Feels bad for hurting me. I can hear it in her voice. She cried too.

However, the panic attack last night was the worse experience of my life. I couldn't breathe. I mean I was breathing, but I couldn't stop. I couldn't slow it down. It was scary. That is the level of the hurt. So deep that I can't control my own body. So yes, she is hurting too. But the depths of my pain are indescribable. I can't put it in words. But I don't need to tell you that. You, and others reading this, have been there. You actually understand me and my pain. For that I am very grateful.

I'm still not eating much. The drugs were supposed to help, but I'm not convinced that they have yet.

Jomarion - July coming up. I hope it's better for you this year than in the past. I hope you can get by without too much reopening of the wound. I'm pulling for you. Stay happy, healthy, and as you said to me....notice the beautiful and wonderful things in your life and in this world.

You need to see her phone records. Ask her to provide an itemized cell phone record. If it is a company phone, she can get it, even if she says she cannot.

As far as the NC request, what your WW did was sufficient if they actually are NC. You may want a more emotional one sent, but short and sweet is best. The OM does not care that you are torn apart, depressed, and barely able to function.

Your WW sounds like she is still not getting it. She says she wants to go forward, but that is usually WS speak for "I tell you what I chose, now get over it, no discussion. And too bad she cannot sleep...she should not be able to sleep after what she has done. She should feel like crap. Do not let her make this about her and her pain.

I am so sorry that you are here. That being said this is the best place to be when we find ourselves on the shit end of being betrayed. If only a ws would be honest and tell us the truth about things.

I myself am fairly new to this but just wanted to let you know we are here for you.

((Hugs))

the panic attack last night was the worse experience of my life. I couldn't breathe. I mean I was breathing, but I couldn't stop. I couldn't slow it down. It was scary. That is the level of the hurt. So deep that I can't control my own body.

When she feels this for what she did to you, then we are talking remorse. You're not getting that from her.

Did she really ask why you couldn't do what the OM did to her in the back of the truck?!?! ARE YOU SHITTING ME!?!?!?

How about why she didn't ask you to do this first?

Remorse? NAAAH, more like regret.

crap. was posting reply and lost it.

Good and Bad day.

First IC today. What a wonderful listener. Gave me lots of good feedback and some special advice for when WW and I see each other in 6 days.

Gave me three book recommendations, the first of which I am already half through and think it's worth the time and money:

After The Affair - Janis Sperry

Private Lies - Frank Pittman

NOT Just Friends - Shirley Glass

I'm about half way through the first book already and can recommend it. I want to read the last one before I ask my WW to read it but the reviews seem good.

Anyway ... the bad part

More TT - maybe the bottom. 3 sexual encounters including one early this year, one in 2006/2007 when they previously had "just kissed" and one oral only sexual encounter around that same time.

It actually doesn't hurt any more than the back of the truck and leaving me at the in-laws and I even thanked her for coming clean.

Still insists no one else, and I want to believe.

Oh ... one more wrinkle. an OW ... and guess what ... I'M FINE WITH IT! I could care less about an OW. She asks, "Why? It's the same for me." I don't know why. I'm not threatened by another woman. Maybe it's that I can't compete there. I can't give her what another woman can.

Don't go down the sex addict path in the responses. I have known she had bi tendencies in the past. However, there may be something about the "secrecy" that she needs. Maybe the sneaking around was part of the appeal....

So, tonight I had a xanax and some beer. I'm actually doing better. Ya I learned more than I knew yesterday or the day before....but are the details really additive?

Maybe I'll wake up with another panic attack. Maybe I'm done with those.

My heart goes out to all of you and I appreciate your heartfelt responses.

Stay strong. Stay healthy.. Stay sane. If PMs were easier, I would PM all of those that I really personally that I want to thank, but I can't (yet).

Hi Shortie. First of all I'm deeply sorry you have to go through this. It's the worst pain in the world. Luckily you came to the right place.

Going back to your previous post: my ex also tried the whole "why don't we do stuff like that". It's bullshit. Total and complete bullshit. I (like you) enjoy gardening and taking care of my animals. I'm a homebody. After our initial confrontation where he bowed and scraped he started in on me. First he said that it was because I didn't send him enough packages (and racey photos) while he was in Afghanistan. Then he claimed that we didn't get out and live exciting lives so he felt like he had to make his exciting. Yeah right.

But anyway we started going to rock climbing places and making plans to go camping... the list goes on and on. For a while I made SUCH an effort to do these things. Any whim he had I indulged. I was so caught up in thinking about how to fix what was wrong with me that I neglected to think about what he'd done. This is part of the web cheating spouses weave. They poke and prod at your insecurities so that eventually you believe that YOU were the one who fucked up.

Fortunately for me it turned out that the girls he liked were underage. He got arrested and I moved home. I know that's not the solution you're hoping for (haha it's not a solution anyone hopes for lololol) but that's what broke the cycle for me and allowed me to think critically about everything. Otherwise (as horrible as it is) I might have stayed indefinitely, thinking there was something wrong with me. Looking back I can see we were heading for divorce anyway but it would have taken me a lot longer then it did and who knows what could have happened during that time?

Basically my point is don't let her turn this into your fault. Any time she says "I did x because you wouldn't do y" ignore it. Better yet call her on it. This is about her problems not yours. If she continues to bring it up calmly suggest that y'all talk about the subject post reconciliation. And I mean post reconciliation. Like 6 months down the road. Or more. So yeah. That's my two cents.

Wow, Sorry if I'm coming on strong here, but you deserve and are entitled to so much better. There are just too many wonderful lonely honorable ladies out there to settle for anything less.

Make it clear that the window of opportunity to save and build a wonderful marriage-is fleeting. That you must, out of self preservation, make certain demands that are absolutely essential if trust is to someday be re-established. Truth and transparency must be the new foundation you build on, and someday trust will follow. Remind her that this is not a courtship, it is an emergency resuscitation. She effed-up royally and needs to make a swift and extraordinary effort to resuscitate this marriage with force equal to the damage caused. She must nurse you back to health with the passion and conviction befitting that of a true loving spouse-as you would do for her if she were in need. She has to work for it and be willing to make great sacrifices. You are worth it buddy-and you better start believing it. If she is not absolutely transparent about the past and the present-You will walk. If she doesn't maintain proper marital boundaries-you will walk. If she breaks NC-you will walk. If she has a problem with any conditions you set down-conditions that make you feel safe, secure and loved...Buh-Bye Baby. Remorse-if she isn't convincing you-walk or forever be haunted. She may need a little guidance and support. If she is worth her salt, is strong, and loves you enough, she will pull it off. If she can't, you will find someone else who can or will, at least, have fun looking.

This reminds me of a person i once knew.

He found out that his 30+ year marriage was a lie from day one. We are talking multiple ONS, multiple long-term affairs, abortions etc.

He went from putting a gun to his head/jumping off a bridge, to writing down his 'bucket list' e.g. Egyptian pyramids, Great Wall of China, Rio de Janeiro etc.

He resigned from his job and got all his legal/property stuff in order. He took the next flight to South America and started his adventure.

Last time he checked in (2+ years ago) he was having the time of his life.

Not really sure why I'm mentioning this but...yeah...

More TT - maybe the bottom. 3 sexual encounters including one early this year, one in 2006/2007 when they previously had "just kissed" and one oral only sexual encounter around that same time

.

There's more. They didn't stay in constant contact for a decade, and yet only have sex once every 3 years, give or take. She's lying by omission.

However, there may be something about the "secrecy" that she needs. Maybe the sneaking around was part of the appeal....

It is part of the appeal of the affair, or it seems to be, but she does NOT need it. No one needs to be a sneak and a liar. Is it fun? Sure. Need? No, and don't give her a pass on that. This OW IS someone else, so there was more than just OM. You may not be bothered by her cheating with a female, but the lying should bother you. Your wife cheats, whenever she feels like it.

Please, before you decide you want R, make sure she's going to put the work in to make the changes she needs to make.

Oh, I have no idea why she's so far away for an entire month, but if my marriage was crumbling, I'd come home. She's not that concerned apparently. Please don't say she can't get out of whatever it is she's doing. If there was a death in her family, she'd get out of it. If she found out a family member was severely injured, she'd get out of it. Guess what? YOU have been severely injured, and she's hiding from it by not coming home.

she said it wasn't a definite yes, but she "thought" it might happen.

Minimizing and a lie. I heard that exact same phrase also.

still insists no one else, and I want to believe.

Oh ... one more wrinkle. an OW ... and guess what ... I'M FINE WITH IT! I could care less about an OW. She asks, "Why? It's the same for me." I don't know why. I'm not threatened by another woman. Maybe it's that I can't compete there. I can't give her what another woman can.

She is completely lying to you about how many other people...most likely. She states there was no one else, than says another woman. Well both statements cant be true so one of them is a lie.

First of all, your wife is a good liar and now used to lying to you, she is able to sneak around, have sex with other people and act totally normal around you. Not good.

You say you are not threatened by another woman. There is a thread on JFO I think it is. He found out his wife was having an affair with another woman. His wife moved out and has chosen to be with this OW.

Your wife basically has stolen at least 8 years of your life from you.

The first step is she has to understand the huge magnitude of what she has done. She has destroyed you for her selfish reasons.

The book Not Just Friends is a good one. She needs to read it.

You should have your wife write you out a completely honest timeline of everything that happened, where, when and with who.

She needs to tell you the WHY she did these things.

There can be no sweeping under the carpet or minimizing the truth by her.

You say she likes the secrets. I heard almost the same thing. My wife basically said her affair was about having something of her own. I came to sort of understand that.

Does your wife have feelings for this OM? Has she told you she loves him or what has she said. I believe that woman can have PA's without much emotion. They are trading sex for attention. Maybe that is your wife.

You say your wife sent a NC. Wonderful, now how do you plan to make sure that there is NC. Has she given you complete access to all of her passwords and phone records. If not, then NC doesnt mean a thing.

Try to take a good multivitamin with plenty of B vitamins in it. They help the nerves.

Drinking always made me feel worse. The hangovers from any alcohol would raise my blood pressure and also made the anxiety attacks far worse.

Eat light meals, and light foods. Dont eat heavy or fried or lots of meat. They can also raise the blood pressure and make that heart beating feeling worse.

Oh Shortyneedshelp, so very sorry for the next information you have received.

Your situation sounds so much like mine in many ways, except I am 5 years post-discovery. I did not know what to do to make it better. I did not have the help of SI, and I wish I did. I have taken the advice here on detaching, the 180, and infact it so far is more effective than any of the other things I tried, many of which you seem to be trying now. Things I did that did not work (or were band-aids , not real help)

-trying to 'model' how to behave, in a relationship, hoping he would copy it. I saw he was very insecure, so I would always tell him where I was going, who I was seeing. I thought this would make him secure, more confident, and therefore closer to me. Did not work.

-telling him how much I loved him, and trying to show him that by doing extra nice things for him so he could see what a good life with me would be like

-listening to his problems, and helping him with his problems ad nauseum.

-trying to give him what I thought the OW had given him.

-telling him I could not live without him, I loved him so much.

In retrospect, these actions/words, only seemed to give him more power to say/do what he wanted.Totally contrary to my understanding of love, more what I'd expect if I was giving in to a horse that bites by giving him more treats by hand.

In these past few weeks I have had more change in him than these past five years by:

-not telling him where I am going. Who I am seeing. He gets nervous now and will sometimes ask sometimes is too scared to ask.

-trying not to care where he goes. This is hard to do. Not speaking a lot, asking questions. He does not deserve to know how I am.

-not picking up the phone all the time when he phones, and I initiate hanging up, I am too busy to talk.

-joined a Co-dependent's group to help with my understanding of my tolerance to bad behaviour, and focussing on how I can change, with or without him in my life, I need to make changes in myself FOR myself.

These things, which basically add up to 'detaching', are helping me get stronger and, surprisingly (to me) helping him feel what it is like without me there. He misses me, he is being nicer to me, but more importantly he is seeing his behaviours have consequences that are not pleasant for him, and it is up to HIM to do something about those behaviours. And he is. I do not yet know if it will be enough, as he is one messed up man (which he admits, at least).

And screaming, yelling, using words did not ever help. We just yelled, were verbally abusive to each other, made up, then slowly the behaviour continued on both our parts.

You said in an earlier post you work at home. So do I, and this can make it very comforting for the WS to know they are 'safe' with you, while they go off wherever with whomever.

I agree that she should have come home immediately on hearing of your upset and shock.

I also liked the idea of the man who said his friend just made a list and is seeing all the great things in this world there are to see.

I hope I do not make things worse, and just making excuses for your WS, but just as you are new to this horrible experience of the affair/s poisonous truth emerging into the light for both of you to face, she too is in that same position, and she may deeply want to repair the damage but is clueless and not knowing how. As a BS, I made many mistakes in trying to repair a relationship. Though it is completely her responsibility, the affair, she may also be quite clueless, frightened, ashamed, and unable to know what to do to repair the mess SHE has made. She has survived on lies for many years, it is not surprising that this survival tactic (lying and deception) will be a habit that will not change overnight, despite her perhaps genuine desire to repair the damage the very lies and deceptions have created.

I will be going camping the next few days so will not be at a computer, but my thoughts will be with you when she arrives home on the 30th.

Thanks for thinking of me too.

I know how very hard it is to draw back and not be able to 'relax' and be open with one you love. It goes contrary to all expectations of what love normally provides. All this'detaching' feels crazy to me. But then, infidelity is crazy, and the normal love behaviours can't apply.

She comes home today. She asked if I could move her flights so I checked and it was free of charge. I'm anxious. A bit scared.

I feel that we both have made a ton of progress. The IC that I have been to was great, the AD meds and Xanax keep my emotions on a bit more of an even keel. And the books my therapist recommended are very helpful.

I asked my WW to read as well and she has been reading one of the same books as me. Any other recommendations for her reading would be helpful. I have finished After the Affair and she is about half way through.

Last night I said to her that I felt I was doing more work than she was. She explained that a lot of my venting and emotional hours long phone calls have been work for her and beneficial for both of us. She agreed she would continue to read and has agreed to MC and IC for herself.

She has come clean as far as I can tell. A few more details, and they are hard to hear. I think we have an agreement for truth and transparency. I have all passwords and have actually found that I get a bit anxious when poking around and it's not a good feeling so I want to limit my time doing that and maybe not even at all unless I am already anxious and just need a "test" (as my therapist calls it).

I think my biggest breakthrough was recognizing problems in our marriage around the time this shit started. I'm not taking any responsibility for what she did, but I can now understand how our issues at the time may have created a lot of uncertainty on her part and left a crack (an opening if you will). It was 8 years ago. I was depressed and on AD meds. Quit my job, sold a lot of our assets (mostly stock from a company I had worked for when it went public) to keep us afloat. At the time, we were both going through a LOT of changes in our personal and professional lives.

I look back on the changes in her since our marriage and they are significant. She is much more educated, powerful, confident, assertive, and really a wonderful woman. While I still blame her and she accepts most of that blame, I have to admit that we are both different people. Her education since we have been married, her positions now as the boss in the room (she is a surgeon) make her a different person. I think she still has some social feelings of inadequacy while I am the social, fun, outgoing one are a bit of a juxtaposition, but it's life and living through change is what makes us human.

I feel like we've made a lot ... maybe even too much progress which is strange as we haven't even seen each other since the discovery. I know that today will be tears and I don't want to explode, I want to try to have a good afternoon with her after I pick her up from the airport. We don't have ANY plans so I plan on sitting on the couch and talking and maybe spending time with the horses, which we both enjoy, but her more so than I.

I do love her. Even with the hurt and pain, I do. As I've shared before, it's one of the reasons I am having a hard time.

Last night she said, "I'm still the same person you know." This was when I was explaining my anxiety of seeing her today. It made me question some things and my response was, "but the person that I thought I knew wouldn't have done that to me." And that's the most clear way I can put this to her and to the rest of you.

The books, this board, all say that it will never be the same. That there will be some of the same comforts, but that the relationship will have to be built anew. There is already a much different dynamic than when we wed, and now there is this 800,000,000,000 pound gorilla in the room.

Again, I feel as if we are rushing it. We both want so bad to put it behind us. I am working on it, she is working on it. Any advice on trying to move on too fast? Are we setting ourselves up for a six month or 1 year explosion?

Wish me luck this afternoon. Keep me in your thoughts as I keep all of you in mine when I hear of your pain. I do appreciate all your kind words. It's nice to have a virtual shoulder to cry on and get feedback. This board, my therapist, the authors I'm reading, and the drugs, make a huge difference.

So much hope that from this nightmare comes a healing of your marriage.

Sounds like you are both trying. That you can see problems which existed before the affair/s, is, in my opinion, a huge step.

For me, 'triggers' lasted much much longer than my partner wanted to accept. He would get exasperated with me. But I, on the other hand,could not help these triggers from happening, they were there, next thing I knew I would be weak and afraid. I wanted him to comfort me, but he could not, and just wanted to forget it all. And even if I do not stay with him, I think these triggers will remain. This affair has changed me forever, not just the relationship, but me, independently of any relationship. I do not know if that will happen to you, too.

It sounds as if you wife wants to figure out why she did what she did, and is at least beginning to do the painful work.

I think for me, I was surprised by the degree of anger I had, once the fear subsided.

Also, the total confusion that someone who said he loved me, could wantonly do what he did.

Also, I am surprised by how long the pain lasts.

I just hope that from all this pain comes a healing and deeper understanding that brings a newer dimension of closeness you did not know possible in your marriage.