SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Neutrality is the appropriate position to take until enough information is available to make an informed judgement. Too often, we tend to see other situations through the lenses of our own experiences and additional information should be gathered before delivering guidance that may be inappropriate given the situation.

lmrw, it sounds to me based on what you've written that you are not up for the roller coaster of healing that will be required for R. You've got to be in it 100%. You need to be the one carrying your partner through rough times when they struggle. You need to be the vulnerable one when they are accusing you of atrocities (some warranted and some not). You need to be an open book and not expect the same of your spouse. You need to drop all other issues in the marriage for a few years while the healing from your betrayal takes place. If you are not prepared to do all these things, you need to get out of the marriage or come up with honest terms with your spouse about how to move forward to make the family work.

^^^^^100% this.

Perseverabo - I know. I literally just got done having a conversation with him about if we decide to R. And your right. I'm not sure I am up for it. I don't think I can handle the amount of resentment he will have towards me. And the amount of work it's going to take to rebuild. Not because I'm not capable of doing to work. But when I imagine myself emotionally supporting him I can't find the motivation.

What's odd and confusing for me is that when he isn't around I do miss him. I fantasize about comforting him and making our lives better. But the very second he steps into my presence I feel an overwhelming amount of anger, disgust, frustration, and annoyance towards him. It's hard for me to undeterstand why that is. I suppose I can try to process it in IC.

Zug - Have you forgiven yourself?

OP - I read an analogy here shortly after dday that made so much sense to me. Say you are in a car accident that is your fault. The other party has a serious head injury and you have a broken wrist. You have to make sure the head injury is addressed first.

Now, what I learned over the first few months is that I could not work on my self-esteem and be a better partner while BH was calling me names and bashing me. I told him this and he has really worked on it. I knew that I had to change. I had tolerated the disrespect for so long and I couldn't fall back into that dynamic.

donewiththatlife - I'm just not sure if we are able to fix it. That's where my head is at.

I told him I think we owe it to at least try under honest conditions. However, I still am not sure if I will be able to give him the 1000000% support dedication that he will require right now. I know that sounds selfish, but if there is no motivation to fix the relationship and our foundation was shattered before the affair ever began, I just don't know how fixable this is.

I can try, but I also think there needs to be a level of love, respect and commitment at the core and I don't feel those things right now.

We go for MC tomorrow, which I know is going to go terribly.

He is unable to see anything besides the affair right now. And I understand your analogy, but There is a bigger picture here that I will need him to see if he ever wants to make our relationship civil, divorced or not.

Zug - Have you forgiven yourself?

Yes, why?

Neutrality is the appropriate position to take until enough information is available to make an informed judgement. Too often, we tend to see other situations through the lenses of our own experiences and additional information should be gathered before delivering guidance that may be inappropriate given the situation.

See, I just don't think that is ever the possibility here. We will never know all the details to make the best judgement. People say what they want to say and leave out a lot. Sometimes because they don't think it is relevant. Sometimes to protect their ego. Sometimes for so many other reasons.

Some, like myself read between the lines. See things. I don't pat hands. I am not an emotional person like that. I just point out things. That is the beauty of SI, it is filled with so many different people and characters based on so many factors. Some, are more compassionate and nurturing. Some are like me. Some are the way they are because it is a female or male thing. Just all different. I don't run around telling the really nurturing ones to stop what they are doing because I see it as enabling wayward behavior. I acknowledge it takes all types.

I could be totally wrong. Or I could be spot on and a person doesn't want to face it. Some might be right and some not? What it does do is make people think and question. That is more my goal as opposed to comforting. There are plenty here to comfort a wayward. I choose to usually not play that role. I question. I point out. Maybe it should be more in question form then?

Many get riled because they are uncomfortable with the truth and facing it. Or they get riled and don't like to be judged. But, isn't that a problem in itself? If a person gets riled from what a stranger thinks? Why should they care if a stranger gets it wrong? If it matters that much, then that is one more thing they need to fix and change.

Like I said. Like many said. Take what you can use and leave the rest. There is no way to not judge a situation and most situations are judge through experience or from seeing a pattern of certain behaviors for me. Much of what goes on with waywards come down to some basics. Caring what other people think to the point of needing validation is one of them.

I just don't see that what I state is guidance. I see it as getting people to think and question themselves. I am not a doctor, I don't come to the situation saying this is you to a tee and take this guidance. That is for their IC to do. I will make suggestions and I will give my opinions. I don't come on here thinking that the opinions given here are the law. You make choices.

People make opinions about me based on my posts. The good news is that I am healthy enough that it doesn't matter to me at all. I don't get riled about it. They are entitled to their opinions. They don't know me in real life. What one might call is brash or arrogant, another might call as basic and honest. Just like the list from I think it is "Not Just Friends" qualities are all based on an individuals perceptions.

I just don't think true neutrality exists. A person would be a computer for that.

Zug - Have you forgiven yourself?

Yes, why?

I dunno. It just seems like you have such little compassion for other waywards, I was wondering if you had found any for yourself.

^^^ Basically.

I get it. Cause I used to be a cocky witch, throwing lumber around under the guise of "They don't need compassion. They're cheaters and need to be beaten with the truth." The truth was, I had no compassion because I refused to see other waywards as people with feelings and hurts. They were monsters. And I got off on being "superior" to them because y'all, I "got it". Bullcrap. And also, I hadn't forgiven myself. It was a twisted little mess in my head.

We can stand up for morals and right without being insensitive douche canoes.

Seek first to understand. Instead of just blowing them out of the water with what we deem as the "right way", seek to understand why they think the way they do. Going in with a lumber yard immediately puts people on the defensive and why should they open up? Seeking first to understand is being neutral and asking questions without the motive of "I'm arming myself to knock you the crap out with truth".

Sure. 2x4s have their time and place. But it's not for every person and in every instance.

But that's just me and what I've learned along the way.

Dead on Aubrie, I remember those days

If we cannot have some compassion for those people that we once were then why are we here?

Why are you guys going to MC?

You keep making it sound like you want nothing to do with him or trying to save your M. So what's the point of MC.

To see if his going to be civil or not?

And if his not?

Why do you think he needs to be civil when you told him about your A like a week ago? Your worried about it going bad bc all he can think about is the A.

What else is going to think about when you put a huge bomb in his world?

I guess I am more confused then ever....

Mmmm...what are you looking for in MC when it sounds like you want to runaway from the M and him?

lmrw,

Right now there is no bigger picture for him to see. If you cannot see this, MC is the biggest mistake he can make right now with you. Honestly, you need to cancel that appt. You will do more damage to him if you go.

You took all of the resentment you had towards him for the marriage, and instead of dealing with it in a healthy way, such as divorce, MC, etc, you had an affair. That is not his fault, that is not the fault of the marriage, that is your fault, and only your fault.

Look, my H cheated on my for 18 yrs before I cheated. Did I deal with that before we dealt with my A? No. It was really hard not to, especially when he went and cheated again 2 yrs into R. But I focused on me and fixed my shit. And now the past two years we have focused on the marriage issues. Six years into R. That is how this is done. If you cannot get to the place where you can put marriage issues on the shelf for the next 2 years while he heals, then D is probably the best option.

Zug

Keep doing what your doing. I think your comments were right on for this situation. I know that the straight up no feelings bullshit was just what I needed to realize that the man who got involved was a bad man and needed to change.

^^^thank you. For some, my approach works. If it doesn't that is what the other posters are there for. Takes all kinds.

No, forgiven myself just fine. I have compassion for myself. I have compassion for all waywards that try. I don't have compassion for what goes against my basic ideas of jumping on the bandwagon of righteousness. And my compassion doesn't have to be patting on the hand and babying them. In my eyes, that is an enabling behavior for way wards. Might work for a BS or a healthy person. But IMO from experience. For myself that had a second affair to get that. It is just another form of medicine or baby food. That didn't work for me. Hard to explain. What is good for the goose is good for the gander type of stuff. I don't subscribe to the two wrongs don't make a right theory so I think many of what I post don't sit well because of many things with my character. 1. I don't believe in God or an afterlife, so I hate seeing people waste time. 2. I have more compassion for the BS than the WS. 3. I believe in consequences and that if you play with fire, the only way to learn is to be burned. That has nothing to do with forgiveness. That is just reality. The BS got burned and why should the wayward be treated any different? Because of compassion? Because of forgiveness? Which BTW doesn't come till you own it and change. I feel bad for them. I feel compassion, but I don't feel I need to soothe. I am just honest. No point dancing around it. Just come out and say what I think and mean. Devoid of being more emotional or what you call compassion in my honesty? I guess. But, that is who I am and believe me, it is a lot better than who I used to be. Just basic and just what many call "brutally honest". I call it real life.

They were monsters. Well anyone that knows me here or been here long enough knows I believe we are or were. Cruel selfish assholes. It doesn't bother me because I faced it, felt it, owned it, and changed it. Just because there is a decal on me somewhere that I was a monster and might even be capable of being a monster doesn't define me or my future. That is where many people seem to get stuck. They don't want to ever face who and what they are. Of course that is just my take on waywards. Sure, it isn't just waywards. I am sure there are plenty of BS that have their issues. But, why mention that? This isn't a psych forum about how BS have faults too, it is about the way ward and way ward behavior and mindset. Why would I waste time talking about their part in marriages that often or give that much sympathy for what the BS has done to the wayward. If a wayward needs that, to me that is for a marriage forum. I think I fit into a small niche where I just say it how it is-and of course from opinion. I am sure being a male also plays into it. I am not a nurturer of that I am certain. No offense but you two come across to me as such. Of course what type of wayward I was also plays into it. I was just a selfish basic 7yritch entitled cake eater. I didn't have an exit affair. I would also think that anyone that did would have already exhausted the avenues of fixing the marriage or the possibilities of their partner changing long before they even made having an exit affair an option. So, why go back after being found out?

Perhaps I do lack a little less compassion for this particular poster because of years of frustration at seeing my sister make the same type of excuses for her controlling abusive marriage. You see someone you care about get hurt for so long it is hard to muster compassion for someone that just keeps doing the same thing over that doesn't work. But I have already explained that. At some point a person grows numb to the plight to save their own self because they get hurt at the same time their sister does. After a while it is hard to feel bad for someone that sticks their hand in a boiling pot of water and keeps doing it expecting a different outcome than it will burn and hurt. People around the abused just get emotionally drained and numb.

And I got off on being "superior" to them because y'all, I "got it".

Nope, not at all. Not the first time someone said that though. I just hate seeing people waste their time and I hate seeing the BS dragged behind. Of course they have the decision to be dragged behind while a wayward takes their time facing themselves. But, still. I did it for a long time. I have forgiven myself. But, it doesn't change that I still hold myself accountable to be better than that and I hold others at the same time to that higher expectation.

We can stand up for morals and right without being insensitive douche canoes.

so, then I should say "Gently-I think you are being selfish and manipulative." That works better? Why? Again. Where was the sensitivity to the BS. I sure as Hell wasn't that way. I wouldn't expect someone to be sensitive to me after the shit I pulled. Again, if you can't handle being burned then don't play with fire.

Seek first to understand. Instead of just blowing them out of the water with what we deem as the "right way", seek to understand why they think the way they do. Going in with a lumber yard immediately puts people on the defensive and why should they open up? Seeking first to understand is being neutral and asking questions without the motive of "I'm arming myself to knock you the crap out with truth".

Sure. 2x4s have their time and place. But it's not for every person and in every instance.

But that's just me and what I've learned along the way.

I have learned that if you can't handle a 2x4 from a stranger, you aren't really serious about changing. Because the shit coming from a BS is going to be a Hell of a lot harder from a BS.

But if how I am responding is chasing off posters or making them feel unsafe and not wanting to open up and heal, then I can just stop posting. I certainly don't want to chase off someone that easy to chase off. This isn't my site. The moderators haven't come to me with complaints. But, regardless. The waywards will have to get thicker skin if they want to survive the rollercoasters of their BS and their own personal shame and guilt. Again. I am just a stranger giving an opinion. It isn't the law. It isn't an order. Just opinions. It was the "right way" that worked for me. If the poster wants other opinions, then those people need to post with the "right way" that worked for them.

Final reply because it's not fair for the continued threadjack. (Apologies OP)

I think many of what I post don't sit well because of many things with my character. 1. I don't believe in God or an afterlife, so I hate seeing people waste time. 2. I have more compassion for the BS than the WS. 3. I believe in consequences and that if you play with fire, the only way to learn is to be burned. That has nothing to do with forgiveness.

Couple things here. 1. Religion or lack thereof has nothing to do with it. 2. You suggest that if we're not constantly throwing lumber that we care less for the BS? 3. At the same time, broken people play with fire. This is a betrayal of self as much as, if not more than the betrayal of the BS. You don't have time for me to elaborate on the extreme self-hate and depreciation I had for myself. And there was alot of lumber here that chased me away more than it helped. The only reason I stayed was because I got to know a couple people personally and they gave me the encouragement to stick around.

Additionally, I learned how to navigate this place in ways that alleviated the lumber. Because of the responses I'd gotten here, there was much I worked on behind the scenes. (Kinda like that time you kept on my case about insisting that I'd married my dad. Not true. But when I said "Ok ok." you backed off and shut up about it.)

Gender has nothing to do with it. Don't know why that's even mentioned. I've seen many people respond to men who took half a second to try to understand where that person is coming from.

I'm not sure where the thought that being kind or neutral is "soothing" and therefore feeding the monster. How many times do waywards come here completely and totally beat down? Many. Going in, balls to the wall when they're already beat down kind of defeats the purpose of healing. And I get it. Waywards don't deserve kindness. But sometimes the compassion and understanding from someone who has been there before, can give that wayward the courage to look in the mirror.

This is predominately a site dedicated to infidelity, but it is also marriage centered. I understand that you don't feel a wayward has any right to discuss anothing about their BS. That is simply not true. Waywards have feelings too. Based on the reaction from some people when I was hurt by my husaband is the very reason I don't post here about it. Because of the mixed responses when I brought my hurt here after killing myself for 4 years of R and my husband crapping on it, I've backed away from detail or hashing my still present hurts out here. Why? It's a mess enough. I don't need or want "What he did is nothing compared to you. It's what you deserve. Tit for tat. See? Now you understand betrayal." How does that help? WS are allowed to address BS issues. Immediately after Dday? Of course not. But when R is on the table, absolutely. Isn't there a a whole "Three things have to heal" bit we always preach? If this isn't a marriage site, why is there a R forum?

I have learned that if you can't handle a 2x4 from a stranger, you aren't really serious about changing.

Yeah. I thought that too. Till I beat a woman with 2x4s and she never came back. I comforted myself with "She just wasn't ready to look in the mirror." Maybe she was. Maybe she wasn't. But I sure didn't give her the space to settle in and let her know she was safe her to work out her problems. My 2x4s were neither the time nor the place. I still wonder today what happened to her. That woman caused me to really look at myself and my reason for being here and continuing to post to waywards. She was a turning point for me.

But if how I am responding is chasing off posters or making them feel unsafe and not wanting to open up and heal, then I can just stop posting. I certainly don't want to chase off someone that easy to chase off. This isn't my site. The moderators haven't come to me with complaints. But, regardless.

This comes off as passive aggressive and I wonder if it's a residual wayward tendency issue within you? Just an observation.

Ultimately you do you. This approach that you have feels very familiar to me. I was much like your posting style about 2-3 years out from Dday. I have asked questions because of the familiarity. You can keep the bull in a china shop approach if you feel it's appropriate. But consider scaling back on the projection (you admitted to it in this thread) and maybe question whether balls to the wall is acceptable in every situation.

End t/j

Yes, I apologize for the T/J as well.

1. Religion does matter to me. 2. Not at all. I am just saying that is who I am. I don't tell you how to give advice. I don't understand this need for everyone to be just like you in giving advice. We are all different. I don't expect you to be like me nor would I want you to be. We all fill different niches. Yes, I do know about self hate. Every remorseful way ward goes through it I am sure. 3. I was referring to the wayward forum with M. I will not elaborate into what I was specifically talking about otherwise this will become a whole other issue. 4. IMO gender plays into a lot of things in SI. Mainly sensitivity and all things being equal. 5. Not all a passive aggressive ploy. If by giving advice my approach is doing more damage then helping, then I have no problems stepping back. 6. Thank you for the advice. I will consider being more appropriate with my wording so as not to offend to be more polite because your fears are not my own about people leaving. But I do understand your viewpoint and where you are coming from. I see it in a very different perspective. Who, knows years from now it may change and be like yours.

I think I started this derailment. Sorry OP. Zug you do you. I'll do me. I can continue to think that you are too harsh and you can continue to think that I am too soft. It takes all kinds. I can't help but be surprised that you are so busy defending your style that you don't seem to really be hearing what Aubrie is saying. Maybe you need someone to bash you over the head with it before you can consider it. Just a thought.

When you grow up being told you are worthless and a screw-up and then spend your life fighting to build your self-worth and confidence, 2x4s are particularly hard to take, especially when you recognize how colossally you have just screwed up. People come to these boards not for sympathy but to understand and process. They come to learn how to repair the damage they have caused. There is no place to be disrespectful or belittling in my opinion. That screaming football coach trying to make you better by telling you how worthless you are may work for some people, but not for me. I no longer start any post where I am looking for feedback or how to process what I'm going through because of the constant 2x4s that Zug has replied with on my posts. And that has nothing to be with my being remorseful or not.

Donewiththatlife

you do you. I'll do me.

Thank you. I do hear what she is saying different approaches for different people at different times. I hear it. I just think differently. I think people like us wayward want easy and expect easy. Do cruel things to other people to get easy. They want to heal in their comfort zone. Hey, if it works for some. That is fine. There are others that state it doesn't and allows for years of rugsweeping to never be called out to face the truth. I also hear I am too harsh. Got it all. My style doesn't work with everyone. I always just went with what makes you uncomfortable is something that needs facing or if it makes you uncomfortable, perhaps it is wayward sensitivity. But, I am done discussing this on their thread. If you guys want to discuss how I am too harsh. Please start a new one.

Imrw - not sure if you're still there but how are you doing?

It's nearly a year since I confessed and it's been a rollercoaster ever since. Some great days, some very dark days.

It's ok to be confused, just try not to pressure yourself too much. You don't have to make decisions until you're ready to.