SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think we are uniquely qualified to make a decision, silver lining I guess. If I were in that boat, I would ask directly, "And what do you learn from that?" That answer tells you everything you need to know. As a mad hatter, I am acutely aware that cheaters can change. But that question right there will tell you everything you need to know.

steadychevy , your story is , of course , the stuff that haunts me, scares me, makes my life miserable even on days when I think I am getting better, doing okay.... That is my worst fear...that I am putting myself through this hell for nothing in the end

Darknessfalls, excuse my snarky comment coming from the very hurt mind of a recently BS....but your response doesn't really surprise....because you are a Wayward, and waywards have a problem with "thinking" things through, and they tend to "feel" things from a selfish instant gratification level.

but your response doesn't really surprise....because you are a Wayward, and waywards have a problem with "thinking" things through, and they tend to "feel" things from a selfish instant gratification level.

Wow, Lucidity. Just . . . wow.

I thought DF's response to another poster's observation was good. She gave her perspective as a wayward. That's helpful. I saw nothing entitled or not "thinking things through" at all.

I realize you are new to your pain, but attacking people who have put in the work and who stick around to help others like you is really not what this place is all about.

DF is not YOUR WS. She is a FORMER WS. Big difference. I'll wager you know none of her story or her journey.

Cat

To answer your generic question, for me the answer is "it depends". Like BrokenheartedUK, I believe people can/do change, learn, and grow from experiences. It's a matter of whether they have/not worked to understand their behavior and made the necessary changes to not repeat the same choices.

Broadly speaking, I wouldn't immediately next a former wayward but it would very much depend on the circumstances of that particular person, their history, and what has happened since they cheated.

The reason I left XH wasn't actually the cheating. It was the lack of responsibility, it was the selfishness, it was the inability to do the hard work needed for himself, and the lack of a true partner. All of this was exhibited in myriad ways in his overall behavior. Frankly, cheating was merely a symptom of the deeper issues.

So, it depends.

I'll give it a bit more time and hear more about how she sees it, but I can more clearly see the red flags you all have pointed out.

I definitely don't think it true to say "once a cheater always a cheater," but it's true that she doesn't sound like she has really examined what about herself let her treat someone so badly, and the whole thing is so raw for me that she would have to be near-perfect in her recovery for me to be okay, and she may not there. Bummer, in all other ways she is really is a great fit for me.

[This message edited by Jose68 at 6:40 AM, April 7th (Friday)]

LucidityLost,

I have no "feelings" whatsoever about what has been posted. Just stating my experience as a WS who dated a BH and didn't feel that I "got away with" anything or that I was entitled to treat him like crap or that he must have feelings of low self-worth.

That's all.

Catwoman, in your very passionate response to me you conveniently left out how I prefaced my comment with" Please excuse my snarky comment coming from the very hurt mind of a recently betrayed spouse..." and in so doing completely losing my somewhat tongue in cheek tone. Also I was in no way attacking her, just referring to her thought process which I would assume from the past ( her past as the WW, and most likely still dealing with some issues from that) You are right, of course that I do not know much of her story other than what I can gather from her signature. I really didn't think my comment was horrible and definitely didn't warrant the multiple exclamations of surprise. Quite honestly I feel attacked by you. And I stand by my snarky comment. WW's do not "think" the same way as Betrayeds do. That is why they cheat and we keep our boundaries. My WH admits this to be true, and he is also working hard to fix this. But also believe that they can change, and that is most likely the case for Darkness.

Also I was concerned about the description of the OP's date, and her continued blame shifting. Don't you also think that there is a problem with her behavior. If there is one thing I have learned from here is that it is never the BS fault that the other person cheated. They can get out of marriage or address the problem. His date states it was because of lack of attention etc. This is most likely not a woman who "gets" it, or has put in the work.

Darkness Falls, I am glad you are sharing your experiences and perspective. I, in no way, meant to attack you and hope you did not feel that I was. It was just a snarky comment. And I will admit to still having a lot of very mixed emotions. I can get so angry....but mostly I am just broken to the core.

Lucidiylost - Per the Guidelines, please do not generalize WSs, for whatever reason. Thank you.

I'll take this back to my original post, both because that will be nicer than they way this has digressed and also as I don't think one of my key questions was answered.

Assuming that the former WS has done the work, etc. (I get it that in this case this person may not be have), do you think it's possible for a BS to get to a place of peace with someone else's WS? I know that around my own XWS, my adrenaline is just too high to ever to be comfortable and there was just too much dishonesty to trust her.

But for example, I have good friends who have done hurtful things to other people, but I don't have a hard time being around them, because I feel they have my back and they have never done it to me. Is it possible to get to a similar place with a BS dating a former WS? Or are we just too traumatized and are going to be allergic to that now? Please leave aside for the moment whether or not a WS will betray again.

[This message edited by Jose68 at 6:40 AM, April 7th (Friday)]

Not that I feel once a cheater always a cheater, because in my first M I had an exit affair (I know, horrible, and yes I learned) but in my second M I had 30 years some great, some crappy, with many opportunities to cheat and never did. I'm the BS now )

But I personally wouldn't choose a woman like this who doesn't seem to fully acknowledge her crap. She may just not be fully opening up her feelings on this because it's early in the relationship with you. I'd be careful, if you want to explore this further.

But I'd hate to see you "settle" this early in the game. I'm sure there's a great lady out there for you. She may be it, but I think you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find the prince. Don't give up or sell yourself short!

As a side note, I don't think all waywards think the same, especially those who have worked on themselves so much and realize the mistakes they've made and the hurt they've caused.

do you think it's possible for a BS to get to a place of peace with someone else's WS?

I don't think I could. I think I would automatically lose a ton of respect for the person and be too afraid to trust or develop any closeness to them. Reformed cheater or not, I'm not a psychologist so I don't know whats in their head and heart.

I think its easier to be friends with someone that did wrong to someone else before, because its foreign to us. Dating a ex-WS would be too close to home for me to handle.

[This message edited by Randy1133 at 1:25 PM, April 4th (Tuesday)]

Assuming that the former WS has done the work, etc. (I get it that in this case this woman may not be safe), do you think it's possible for a BS to get to a place of peace with someone else's WS?

I do.

Couple of things, though.

First off, it's very important that you don't make your future relationships "pay" for your past. By that, I mean that you need to ditch the mindset "since-I-was-cheated-on-I-expect-you-to-handle-me-with-kid-gloves." I hate that. I really do. Being a BS does not mean that you should expect future relationship partners to "understand" and to treat you accordingly. Certainly I'm not advocating putting up with crappy treatment, and certainly I'm not saying that you can't tell your new partner what you need (i.e. "I feel panicky and hurt when you stay out later than you said you would without letting me know--please call me and let me know when your plans change").

Someone who has never experienced infidelity won't understand some of these things, and that's okay! The further you get from your experience as a BS, the less it matters.

I am a big believer in not investing more than you can afford to lose. By that, I mean that we "invest" small amounts of trust in a person initially. You know, trusting that they will show up when they said they would, or that they will call when they said they would. As time goes on, you invest larger amounts of trust (provided, of course, that they prove trustworthy). It's when you want to go from 0 to 60 in 3.2 seconds that the trouble can start.

You're awfully new out from infidelity, so expect some bumps in the road and expect to have more perspective as you continue in your journey. I noticed that the healthier I got, the better choices I made in people to date.

Cat

Is it possible to get to a similar place with a BS dating a former WS? Or are we just too traumatized and are going to be allergic to that now? Please leave aside for the moment whether or not a WS will betray again.

I would, under the right circumstances, date a former wayward.

No two relationships are the same, and when you have a new combination of behaviors, experiences, thoughts, etc. it can/does lead to different outcomes. However, if that's a bridge too far for someone, that is their right to say nope.

I probably would not date a former WS, but I also try to avoid BS's for some of the reasons Cat outlined. I think many BS's learn all the wrong lessons from their infidelity experience - how to be sneaky, how to suspend empathy, how to be more selfish, how to be nihilistic about relationships - and end up being bad partners. My IC first planted this idea based on her patients and research in this area and I've seen it play out a lot IRL and on this forum. Just something to think about.

My IC first planted this idea based on her patients and research in this area and I've seen it play out a lot IRL and on this forum. Just something to think about.

I think, as humans, what we expect to see is sometimes what we find. That is what causes prejudice, stereotyping, discrimination. As humans striving to become better, healthier people we have to be aware of our bias. Sometimes our past experience helps us but sometimes it hurts.

Personally, I think I could get involved with a recovered wayward but I struggle everyday with people I catch in a lie. I don't know that I will ever be able to get to a normal tolerance level.

Personally, I think I could get involved with a recovered wayward

But thats the thing...how do you know they are recovered? If the people in reconciliation have a very hard time figuring it out with their spouses, what makes us think we can after a few dates? And are you willing to put your heart on the line to try and figure it out with the possibility that its all bullshit?

And they may be reformed or whatever and never cheat again, but I'm not about to make the same mistake another made. Like my old history professor said, we teach history because we don't want the world to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Any person who has cheated and hasn't taken full accountability for their poor decisions still believes that cheating is justifiable or at least caused by forces external to themselves.

Run.

This question is easier to frame if you replace the word "cheater" with "alcohol-fueled date rapist." Under what circumstances should one emotionally invest in an attractive, charming date-rapist? I would think it would require a clearly demonstrated total reconstruction of their personality.

Sorry if I don't post this my head will just explode.

If you have people in your life who "have done bad/hurtful" things in your life (that you are aware of like first hand, not gossip) DUMP THEM. Honestly it's only a matter of time until they do it to you too.

I had a twenty year friendship end. I knew my friend was a liar. I watched her do it frequently but thought my friendship with her immunzed me from that. Nope, not a bit.

If you know someone is behaving badly they are mad likely to do it to you when it works for them.

I finally got an A on this test :D

do you think it's possible for a BS to get to a place of peace with someone else's WS

I do believe so. I believe you can take what you have learned about relationships, boundaries, and indicators of wayward thinking and blameshifting and apply them to your new relationship without lumping the new partner in with your former WS. I believe that it is entirely possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has done the work and developed healthy coping mechanisms for when times become difficult (as they inevitably do in any relationship once in a while).

That said, this bears being addressed again:

It doesn't matter how long she went without cheating. My husband went 17 years. Then he went another 7 before he did it again. The fact is, her coping mechanism for difficulties in her relationship involved searching for outside gratification rather than inward introspection and resolution efforts with her current partner. The current blameshifting indicates that she still engages in wayward thinking which means that when she feels unloved or unheard, she does not feel that cheating was a completely unacceptable response. It indicates that she looks for an acceptable reason to explain away very shameful behavior. While she knows her behavior was shameful, she cannot accept the behavior as her own without a disclaimer to go with it.

Once she can put aside justifications for her bad behavior, own it 100%, and accept that she must work on her coping mechanisms and her boundaries, she might be a healthier person to date. Since you are just dating, I can't see the harm unless, of course, you are falling in love. Because, at this point, she simply is not safe.

I think the fact that she told you she cheated is a good thing. I think the fact that she justifies her cheating is a bad thing. Unfortunately, the two things cancelling each other out do not exactly make a neutral. What matters now is what she has done to work on herself.

How will she handle issues in your relationship if there is a lull in the passion or you are so busy you aren't connecting? Is she conflict avoidant or will she talk to you about her needs so that she doesn't feel the need to get her ego stroked elsewhere? What are her boundaries with friends of the opposite sex? Will she tell you if she feels she is developing an attraction to someone else or fear that you'll fly off the handle and hide it? And what are YOUR boundaries and deal breakers based on what you've learned from your prior relationship? Have you discussed those with her to see if she agrees or feels that you are overbearing or just untrusting?

It may be too soon in the relationship to dig into all of this. But, then again, you've already discussed the reasons for the ending of your prior relationships- so maybe not.

I believe she could be a safe partner with work. I just don't believe she is now. I guess it depends on whether or not you want to hang around for the work. Then again, if you do hang around and she actually does the work, you might get a really good relationship out of it.