SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

M1965 I really appreciate your long well said and thought out reply. After reading it I really felt that you understand the place that I am in, and I really believe this is an accurate assessment of my situation. Although some others have presented also possible assessments I believe (with information not shared and having shared a bed with this woman for 13 years) that this is the starting point from which I will begin looking to examine how to move forward.

There is no shame in loving a person. And please do not get diverted down the blind alley of 'self-respect' and 'not putting up with any crap', etc. Loving a fallible person does not mean you have no self-respect, or that you are a soft touch who gets walked all over (isn't the male ego a wonderful thing? How we torment ourselves with this stuff...)

This really stuck with me. This is something I will have to accept. Everybody is human and I can't expect her to ever be perfect.

ramius you are correct as well and I have actively been seeking IC in an effort to get answers to questions about myself and my role in the destruction of my relationship. I am in no way absolving her of complete blame for the A but I am also insightful enough to recognize my part in the dysfunction. She has a lot of issues (alcohol dependence/abuse, early childhood trauma, etc.) that I did not bring up PRECISELY because I didn't want to make excuses. These have been ongoing issues within our relationship, but obviously do not justify her CHOOSING to have an A. I hope we can build better communication so that I am given a chance to fulfill those needs for her if we decide to move forward.

Alchemy I appreciate your perspective as well. I never had a problem with the "non-traditional" household that we have and she has never shown me she has either. This was a decision we made years ago that took into account financial situation as well as both of us wanting our children to be raised by us, as opposed to a nanny or child-care facility. I agree there are some women out there who feel the need to be with men who fit the typical gender roles in a relationship, I didn't believe (don't believe) the woman I'm with did. Thank you for the kind words.

Thank you everyone else for the kind words. It really has helped move me through the day and get some things done. Just being able to check back and read another message has been beyond helpful today, and will hopefully motivate me to keep trudging along.

Alchemy,

Generalizing is against the guidelines of this site. In addition, there's no need to beat up a brand new member.

You've received a lot of good advice and steps to take here. If you have not read all the texts between her and the AP yet then you are not getting the whole story. Has she given open access to all her accounts for the past and future? And I agree: Ask for the ring back. Tell her you love her and want nothing more to give it back someday and ask her again in the future to marry you, but the promise she made when you got engaged has been broken. When she's done the work to earn your trust and love again it will be a priveledge for both of you of you to ask her again. But engaged people do not sleep with other people and therefore you are not engaged.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:29 PM, April 26th (Wednesday)]

...I have actively been seeking IC in an effort to get answers to questions about myself and my role in the destruction of my relationship. I am in no way absolving her of complete blame for the A but I am also insightful enough to recognize my part in the dysfunction.

These are two separate issues, hurtpenguin. A dysfunctional marriage is a good reason to attend marriage counseling, for a separation, or a divorce. It's not a reason for infidelity. I think it's fairly common for a BS to wonder what they did wrong or how they could have been a better partner, etc., but it's a no-win game and best not to even play. You did nothing wrong. It's not your fault. There are betrayed spouses on this site who truly and honestly believed they had a great and healthy marriage. There are wayward spouses on this site who will admit that they had a great and healthy marriage, and yet they still choose to have an affair(s). It's entirely possible--if not probably--that she would have cheated no matter who she was with. What lead her down that path are her issues and hers alone.

It's not your fault.

This is just my 2c here, brother, but I think you might want to put that wedding on hold for a while longer. You've already waited 13 years, right? What's another year or two? For most folks, it takes two to five years to reconcile and heal from infidelity.

My FWW effectively annihilated any trust I'd ever had in her within 48 hours of D-day. She could have been speaking an entirely different language and it wouldn't have made any difference. Nothing she said was believable. Waywards lie, distort, obfuscate, rationalize, justify... and 90% is absolute bullshit.

She wouldn't tell me who the OM was. I had to find that out for myself. I hesitated to inform the OBS. My FWW tried to talk me out of telling her, making up all sorts of bullshit along the way (more lies). When I finally decided to inform her... well, let's just I could have saved this woman a LOT of pain had I acted sooner.

Waywards will take affairs deeper underground. I'm not saying this is true in your situation, but it does happen. Since your fiancé and the OM still work together and there is still continued contact, the affair is exposed, but not necessarily over. Until you can be absolutely sure that there is NC firmly established, reconciling is going to be damned near impossible. (This is when the OBS can become your greatest ally).

***

t/j Alchemy, the level of sheer disdain you've displayed here is beyond reprehensible. I think you owe the OP a massive apology, if you're even capable of it.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:43 PM, April 26th (Wednesday)]

Penguin,

I'm so sorry you're here. This sucks at so many levels. I was a SAHM about 6 weeks before kid #3 was born, so I understand that feeling of financial vulnerability and the tradeoffs that I made for the family that felt not only not valued, but totally undermined.

It sounds like you have good boundaries and instincts in that you have made demands for what you need right up front. I think that you're doing a lot of the right things by being reflective, taking time to grieve and take stock.

The time thing sucks. There is no way around that. But it's also how you use the time that counts. We attempted R for about a year, and it was totally hell. BUT...I'm glad I gave myself that time to rejoin the workforce, get a post-nup, and do a lot of my own personal healing. I was able to assess whether this was a blip or a catastrophe. When I made the painful decision to D., I knew that I had done the work and that I wasn't making it from a reactionary place, but a place of strength. It really benefited me emotionally and financially. I spent the last 10% of the relationship assessing if it was worth saving. It was a worthy investment of my time and I'm proud that I can tell my children that I was that serious about it.

I wish you all the very best as you navigate this. I don't know if any of the Menz have come by with an invite, but they have a Betrayed Menz thread in the I Can Relate forum and in addition to beer they have pretty good wisdom.

Not much to add here, as I do agree with much of the points being made, especially taking back the ring.

She may be the mother of your children at this point, but she is now completely unworthy of being your wife, or life partner, or girlfriend...whatever.

That's a privileged position that requires trust, and she has proven herself lacking.

I would, however, advise a pre-nup if you do eventually decide to R.

If she wont sign a pre-nup, then take R off the table as an option.

Hi hurtpenguin, i agree with the others but wanted to add that I really hope you tell the OBS. I was told about my partners affair by the OBS and I can guarantee that had I had not been told the affair would have continued. Even though her husband knew she still sent mine an email after dday saying if he ever wanted to hook up again she would game. No one wants to be the bearer of bad news but just remember that you did not cause this. It was her husband.

HurtP,

Possibly the biggest mistake our posters make is thinking they are “special”.

I mean no disrespect when I maintain that there is ONLY one unique factor in what you are dealing with; namely that YOU are dealing with it. A fiancé that cheats? We have seen that. A workplace affair? Seen that. Both combined? Seen that. Still working together? Seen that. Not tell OMW? Seen that. Looking for a new job? Seen that. Intent on R? Seen that. Failed R? Seen that. Successful R? Seen that… We have seen all that and we have seen all combination of that…

The reason I point this out is because IF you think you are special then you start thinking the common consensus here on SI doesn’t apply to your “special” situation. You start cherry-picking your path. And that beats the purpose of seeking advice…

I have this theory… or methodology… call it what you like.

Right now, your goal isn’t to end the relationship nor reconcile. Right now, your goal is to get out of infidelity. That’s it. Plain and simple. 12 months from now you DO NOT want to be wondering if “working late” actually means dinner with OM or if it’s really “only a business meeting”.

Right now – while there is still infidelity – trying to go to MC, or to reconcile is like redecorating a burning house. Get the flames out, evaluate the damage and THEN get to work!

Still infidelity? Well… Yes… Maybe not active infidelity but if there is contact, if you don’t feel safe and if the conditions are conductive to infidelity and counter conductive to R there is infidelity…

Imagine your wife had a drinking problem. Would you be OK with her if she told you she had stopped drinking but went back to her job as a bartender? Wouldn’t you want her away from her temptations?

There are two basics that we old-timers here on SI have seen again and again and again:

Letting EVERYONE in the loop know will help IMMENSELY in finding resolution. So yes – tell OMW. Don’t threaten to do it, warn ahead of time or let fiancé know. Just do it. What is there to fear? Experience tells us that in 9/10 cases the OM throws his AP into the dust and tries to save the marriage. Nothing kills infidelity attraction faster than a firm rejection from the OM. If OM leaves his wife and tries to get your fiancé, then her resolution will be tested. If she leaves for him, well… isn’t it better to know NOW rather than x years from now? To me it’s a total win-win situation and is the ultimate infidelity-breaker.

The second is total and accountable NC. Your fiancé and OM were together at two separate work trips. Employees don’t get to choose where they go and when they go. Chances are they will travel again. Heck… You have NO WAY of knowing if your fiancé is traveling with Jeana from sales, or Brad from accounting. You have NO WAY to feel safe. You have NO WAY of preventing the glances, across the room at meetings. You have NO WAY of being able to feel safe. There is NO WAY they can work together and you two have a healthy reconciliation.

Get those two items in line and while doing so don’t focus on R or D. Focus on creating the situation where either is attainable.

To use a comparison: What lies ahead is a marathon. You might still be on the first yards but you are carrying a 100-pound weight (secrecy to OMW) and dragging a piano (NC issue). Theoretically you might still finish the marathon but your chances of success AND your time to goal will improve the sooner you get rid of both.

And Hurt…

Generally going to MC right after d-day to discover what was “wrong” with the relationship that made her have an affair… It’s not going to work. She didn’t cheat because the relationship was “wrong” – she cheated because that’s how she reacted to some possible issues in your relationship.

All relationships can improve. In fact, that might be an indicator of a good marriage when both actively constantly pursue (or are open for ) improvement. Stagnation is bad in a marriage. But once you allow yourself to say “AHA! She cheated because I did (or didn’t do) something” then you are opening up for her to cheat again because you did or did not do something. What about 5 years from now when you don’t put enough starch in her laundry? Will she have to give someone a BJ because of your fault?

Definitely go to MC to get some key messages across: Truth, honesty, accountability, communications… but don’t go there to be told how she had to cheat because of issues in the marriage.

“Although some others have presented also possible assessments I believe (with information not shared and having shared a bed with this woman for 13 years) that this is the starting point from which I will begin looking to examine how to move forward.”

Hurt, that is the best way to use this forum. Get as wide an array of views and suggestions as possible, and use your judgement about what actions seem most likely to lead to your goal for the future. By that, I mean what you are aiming for, whether it is reconciliation, breaking up, a trial separation, a complete rebuild of the relationship from scratch…Not every suggestion suits every target outcome. However, Bigger makes good points about what to do in the immediate aftermath of discovering infidelity, which is to get 'out' of it by neutralising the basic elements that sustained it. Those are: (1) secrecy, (2) proximity of the affair partners, (3) contact between the affair partners. They are the fundamental things that have to be disempowered to ensure the affair is truly over. If you like, these are the first things to do when you find your house is on fire. It is after the fire is out that you decide on how to rebuild and redecorate, or if you demolish the place and move elsewhere.

In the early days after infidelity is discovered, it can be very confusing to know what you want, and people often switch from day to day, and sometimes hour to hour. As time passes, you will start to settle on a goal that feels right for you. And that is another key point: ten people faced with exactly the same situation could come up with ten different ideal outcomes. There is hardly ever a single ‘right’ outcome, except in the most extreme scenarios. As the days pass, and you think through lots of different options, you will start to find that your ‘ideal’ outcome will become clearer, and that clarity will help you pick out the moves that are suitable to make to achieve it.

“ramius you are correct as well and I have actively been seeking IC in an effort to get answers to questions about myself and my role in the destruction of my relationship.”

Destruction? That has a ring of finality about it. You have said you are quite ‘black and white’ in your views and decision making, and I must admit that I am the same. Are you sure the relationship is ‘destroyed’, or is it just ‘damaged’? I’m not playing word-games, but if you feel the relationship is really destroyed, you are in a position of either ending it, or bulldozing away the rubble and trying to build a better, stronger one in its place. In previous threads, posters have said that infidelity does basically end an existing relationship, and that even when people reconcile, they are not continuing the old relationship, but beginning a new one, post-infidelity. I think there is a lot of wisdom there, because even if both people totally re-commit to each other, they can never quite go back to how things were. My take on that is that it may not be such a bad thing. Infidelity sucks, plain and simple, but if it prompts a couple to pull apart their relationship and try to rebuild a better version of it, that rebuilding process can have positive results. It sounds like you might have a similar perspective on rebuilding a better relationship, because you say:

“I am in no way absolving her of complete blame for the A but I am also insightful enough to recognize my part in the dysfunction. She has a lot of issues (alcohol dependence/abuse, early childhood trauma, etc.) that I did not bring up PRECISELY because I didn't want to make excuses. These have been ongoing issues within our relationship, but obviously do not justify her CHOOSING to have an A. I hope we can build better communication so that I am given a chance to fulfill those needs for her if we decide to move forward.”

It can be very difficult to identify what elements in a relationship may or may not have contributed to an affair, and I think people can get bogged down trying to figure it out. If you are looking to rebuild the relationship, I would take a pragmatic approach, and identify the elements of it that weren’t functioning as well as they could have, but keep them completely separate from your fiance’s decision to have an affair. Almost everyone in the forum would agree that there is never a justifiable excuse for having an affair. The decision to have an affair comes from within the person who decides to have it, and is governed by their values, boundaries, decision-making process, personality, etc. I think your decision to examine things from a perspective of what you could have done differently in the relationship (and how it can be improved), not from the perspective of how those things may have contributed to the infidelity, is exactly right and positive if you are aiming at a rebuild of the relationship.

“I hope we can build better communication so that I am given a chance to fulfill those needs for her if we decide to move forward.”

You have hit a very important issue here; no-one in a relationship can provide what their partner needs if they are not aware of that need in the first place. Better, more open communication is the key, and that means learning new patterns of behaviour, like not bottling things up, mentioning if something feels lacking, and so on. People often don’t do that, and then they wonder why a relationship fell apart. However, I would not make too strong a connection between communication and the decision to have an affair. The sad thing is that affairs happen in ideal relationships, where communication is good, the sex is good, there are no money worries, no domestic abuse, the people seem to get on really well. The one element that hardly ever gets mentioned is boredom, and yet from what I have seen and experienced, it is a huge contributory factor to people having affairs.

When we establish a relationship, and particularly a significant one, we strive hard to set up a home, get a secure, regular income, establish a routine, shared activities, etc, etc. And that rolls along for a time, and everything seems fine, but what is lacking is the thrill of something new and exciting. We may have a great partner, a great house, a great job, great kids, but it’s human nature to start taking those things for granted and not seeing them as the amazing blessings that they are. And we get bored with our lovely, safe little routine. We shouldn’t, but we do. And then something new, different, exciting, forbidden comes along, and we have to decide whether we ride the rollercoaster. And that’s where some people get in trouble; they steal the car, they take the drugs, they have the affair, they embezzle the money from that account at work that hardly anyone knows about. And what a giddy adrenalin rush it provides…Until the cops show up or your significant other is heading out the door clutching a suitcase and pledging to never return. Only then do the exciting new diversions appear in their true colours: cheap thrills and fool’s gold, bought at great cost.

The point of all this is that you can be the best life-partner ever, but the decision to have an affair comes from within your partner, not as a product of anything you have or haven’t done. And the key to preventing a recurrence is for them to fix whatever it is inside themselves that enabled them to cross the boundary into doing something that they should not have done. Is it that there was no boundary there? Is it that they have a self-destructive streak and like to gamble with high stakes? Do they not think things through or make reckless decisions? Do they have a poor moral compass? Are they attracted by anything taboo and forbidden? This is where individual counselling comes into its own. Going by what you have said about the issues your fiancé has had in the past, it looks like there are some elements mentioned here that may strike a chord with you, but they are things that can only be fixed in your fiancé, not in you or the relationship. That is something you can factor into your way forward, because it is the person who has had the affair who has the biggest issues to fix if a relationship is to be continued or rebuilt. By all means try and improve yourself, but it is your fiancé who has the most work to do to figure out the reasons she cheated, and how they can be fixed.

Oh, and before I shut up…

“I hope we can build better communication so that I am given a chance to fulfill those needs for her if we decide to move forward.”

That is fine, but your fiancé must be made aware of your needs and truly commit to fulfilling them too. You sound like a good and caring guy, prepared to be thoughtful and supportive, someone a person with issues really needs (I mean nothing derogatory by that). She has been very silly to risk losing you for the sake of the fool’s gold affair she had, and it is in her interest to prove that she appreciates just how valuable you are. Way beyond fool’s gold!

I wish you well as you move forward.

I do think it is important for you to start looking for a job. You need to get your independence back and that also involves your financial independence. R or D, it doesn't really matter, she cheated on you, so this changes the daddy daycare scenario. It changes everything. You have to be prepared for the worse and its hard to do that if she has access to all the income. There is nothing wrong with childcare, my kid did it and it helped with her social (made friends) and mental development (teachers). I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a stay at home dad, just not in your current situation.

I will reinforce all that have recommended you tell the OM wife. I recommend by phone. I have never seen the benefit to write a letter of any kind, as you have no guarantee it will be received, and no chance to answer any questions.

I would note that Bigger has been here since Jesus was a carpenter, even longer than I have, and it refreshing to see him still active after I have been away so long. I tend to agree wholeheartedly will 99% of his advice and he has, in my mind, a proven record of rational, sound, and helpful insights that I hope you give much weight.

I will reiterate what I have said before, there are two reasons why spouses cheat:

1. They want to.

2. They think they can get away with it.

Everything else is excuses and justification.

You can fix the latter by exposing it to the other spouse. The secrecy, which is the thrilling and exciting part, gets blown up and turns to shame and embarrassment. And you now have another set of eyes looking from the other direction to make sure it stops.

It most cases this shuts down the possibility of continuing or going underground by a huge percentage. The last thing you want is to start wondering if it's still going on.

Find a way to get the OM's wifes phone number, by what ever means necessary, and you may have to get creative. Do not let the your "wife" or the OM find out that you are trying to contact her. Once the "thrill" of it has been eliminated, you can start to try and put the pieces back together.

A dysfunctional marriage is a good reason to attend marriage counseling, for a separation, or a divorce. It's not a reason for infidelity

I agree with Unhinged on this one. See reason number one. She wanted to. That has nothing to do with you. It's a character flaw, not a problem in your marriage. Most people have marriage issues, most don't see cheating as an answer.

In your zeal to find "the problem" we tend to grasp at any magic answer to justify such actions because we can't believe the love of our life could ever do such a thing to us. We find a way to blame ourselves, or some long lost childhood event, or the particular work environment, to protect the ones we love.

The moment you take ANY blame for this is the moment you have lost.

I don't see your "non-traditional" household has anything at all to do with this, not a factor in my opinion.

Put me squarely in the contact OBS. I waited 3 weeks. It wasn't until I found this site that I was convinced it was the right thing to do. I tried leaving a Facebook message and she never responded. Turns out she wasn't a big fb user so I got her work number.

As it turned out my wife was lying her ass off about quite a few things. It wasn't until I contacted her that I was able to see what my life was like during the betrayal. If you are thinking of just threatening the OM with exposing him to his wife, save your breath. He didn't respect you then and won't now. Do it by phone snd with as much info you can gather. Offer it to her and let her decide how much she needs to know. The OBS could tell by my voice that i was not getting any pleasure from it and that I was very sorry this happened. It the smartest thing I did and gave me control of the whole situation.

Hi Hurtpenguin, sorry you are here,

One thing I will say straight up is that you should focus on YOU and YOUR RECOVERY from the trauma of discovery that your fiance and mother of your kids is a liar and a cheater.

While it's unfortunate you are in this situation, it could definitely be worse in that you might not have found out until after the wedding.

Without passing any judgement on your decision to organize your family with her being the breadwinner and you the stay at home parent, I do think you should reconsider this arrangement and focus on your own personal development and strengthen your capacity to support yourself and your kids on your own.

Think about getting a part time job or enrolling in classes online or at a local community college. Do some research on this and spend some time visualizing rebuilding a new life for yourself without her in it.

I don't mean you should dump her right now, but I do mean you should wrap your head around that possibility now. Let your mind wander down that pathway and confront the concept of detaching your life story from hers. One of the worst things you can do right now is to cling desperately to what you thought you had. You will develop a very weak and helpless mindset that makes you feel victimized.

Read up on the 180 as a method of redirecting your attention onto you and away from being the nurturer and supporter of her.

She should also have to confront the notion that you are going to leave and to entertain the idea that she will have to negotiate custody and child support as a consequence of her crappy choices.

Don't beg her to come back to you and you only. If your relationship is to survive it can't be because of how much YOU want to reconcile. You can't do that on your own no matter how much you wish you could.

Women do not respect stay at home dads. They can say they do but tens of thousands of years of evolution has taken that card off the table.

Google the divorce rate of SAHDs

Check out other threads about stay at home dads..

So far you haven't understood what people here are telling you. There is a small chance you can make it work. But not a chance with what you are saying and planning.

You are subordinate in her mind. The man she is banging is her subordinate. That's beginning to look lovely me a pattern.

DNA your kids and make certain she knows you are doing it.

Nothing a person does turns their spouse into a cheater. She is 100% responsible for that. If she respected you and loved you, the last thing on her mind would have been to poke her subordinate. She needs to quit drinking too.

Hurtpenguin just want you to know that some women are much more enlightened and evolved to make your family dynamic work. I happen to be one of them. I know how much work goes into being a stay at home parent. I have dealt with really poor daycare. I am grateful that my husband and I chose the same path that you and your SO have because our kids are loved and safe. I have a great deal of respect for my husband and for any man who chooses to raise his children in a safe and loving environment. Ignore the naysayers on that one.

That being said, you may need to consider working only so that you can be financially independent if you need to be in case of a break up. NOT because women don't respect a sahd because that is simply not true. Maybe some don't but I assure you that many women do. Parenting is the toughest job in the world.

Only a fiancee? PLEASE pleas please.....don't marry this person. There are no papers between you. Run. Run fast and don't look back!

How does she feel about the other man now? Still attracted to him sexually? Romantically? Emotionally? Respects him? If not, how could her feelings change so quickly? If so, then how can she resist communicating being him?

Get a voice activated recorder. Put it in her car. Look at it every day for a week. Do this one week a month until she leaves that job.

Not likely she told the truth about the start and end of the affair. Especially the start. Ask her to give you a timeline and ask if she would be willing to take a polygraph based on starting, ending, and frequency. I suspect strongly that this has been going much longer than she admits, and more frequently. Just based on other situations similar to yours, there is a better than 50-50 chance that she has communicated with him for at least a short relapse or for the infamous "closure." Actually, a fond farewell closure talk is just about a lock.

Tell other man's wife. It is the single most effective action to end the affair, or help prevent a recurrence. Get a private investigator to give you the contact info, but your fiance knows all about the competition and can give you the info. If you trust her not to warn the other man. Is your fiance on your side or would she still want to protect other man? Putting her to this test could give you an indication. Asking her to handwrite a no contact letter and giving it to you to read and mail also could help you see where her loyalties lie, and how strongly.

Your fiance likes him. Maybe loves him. Present or past? I wonder. Did you ask her what she loved about him?

I want you to remember the "why isn't she trying to win me back" question. Pay attention to conflicting messages between actions and words. That is one. Give extreme emphasis to actions over words. This is still a very fluid situation. She might be as much worried about her own reputation than your feelings. Based on her past recent history, I'd say that's a good bet.

Have you checked her texting/phone frequency prior to you catching her? Did she delete messages? Can you recover it with a consultant with expertise? Have you checked her browsing history? What is she searching on the internet? What songs has she been listening to? Lyrics about star-crossed lovers denied? These are a couple things that can help you see inside her thoughts.

Who knew about the affair? She was on business travel, what other business associates or colleagues knew that your fiance and other man were making kissy-faces with each other over dinner? Slept in the same room? Any confidantes she told? Encouraged? Or discouraged?

Look at the whole picture, not just the "mandatory rules" you set up.

I would definitely consider postponing the wedding.

Also, put me in the "tell OBS " camp. I didn't, and my husband and his skanky whore took the affair underground for the next 3.5 years.

I suggest taking the wedding off the table for the time being. Don't let that be her reason for reconciling, and not you and your feelings. I personally would not want to get married within one year at minimum. Knowing what I know, I would suggest the wedding date can be set again after one year has lapsed if things are going well.

Think strongly about this.