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No. They were clearly not capable of giving or having love for another at the time they were lying and deceiving, but they were capable of wanting to receive love (and worship and maid service and hot meals and money and people fighting over them).

Now I am really questioning the kind of love that allowed him to cheat for 2 years

The fact i feel like i can't resolve this within myself is making me really think I need to call.it quits and leave WS.

So prior to Dday I though of love in a lot of ways that popular tells us it is. I could list all kinds of things to describe it. However I can say I had no real idea how to define love or prove love.

After Dday I've move to love is a verb. Loving actions demonstrate love towards someone. If my WS actions were indicative of love during her A then, No she did not love during her A.

It is the best answer I have. Going forward she has to perform loving actions that I can see and understand. We no longer have the liberty of assuming that there is love there.

The funny thing is that performing loving actions for my wife allows me to feel my love for her. She says the same.

Short answer: Love is not automatic or easy. It takes effort in language you each can understand (which maybe different love languages).

You have to forward, not backward. I think arguing this point between the two of you is making things worse.

Using the verb definition, no he did not love you while pursuing his A. He might have acted lovingly at other times, but while focusing on his A . . .I don't see pursuing an A as a loving action at all.

NaiveandDeceived-I have struggled with this since dday 3 years ago. Like many here on SI, I too heard the "I never stopped loving you". In fact, I heard it again yesterday. At one point, I asked my fWH to stop saying this to me, it was that upsetting.

I have a hard time understanding this thinking. But I do have moments of clarity-at least I think I do. This happens most often when I try to view the A through his eyes. Did he love her? NO-at least he says that he never loved her. Did he tell her he did-YES. Does this make sense, not in the least.

Did he think of me during the A? NO. Selfish, wayward thinking doesn't allow it. He had suffered a huge job loss 2 years prior to the A-the AP hired him after a dozen or so job interviews that didn't work out. He was approaching 50. She was his boss for the year they worked together. She gave him endless compliments, long lingering looks, brief touches on the arm. Grooming and manipulating on her part? YES. Was he attracted to her during the time they worked together? NO.

Then, she was fired. He triggered remembering what it was like when he was fired a few years earlier. He wanted to help. He felt sorry for her. She had hired him...she had "wanted" him. Gone was his one source (in his opinion) of external validation. He still wasn't strong enough or whole enough to realize that he was good enough-the thought of losing this (external) validation was devastating.

What does this have to do with him loving her? Nothing. He didn't love her - he loved what she reflected back to him. She reflected back to him that he was good enough, brilliant actually, in his career-at least that was his interpretation. I could not give that to him, no matter how hard I tried, because he did not believe it himself. I believe that deep down he thought that I didn't think he was good enough (even though that is so far from the truth) - he struggled with me because in his mind, he had let me down financially and couldn't be the provider to his family that he so desperately wanted to be.

He did not love her. He maintains that he said those words to her to get what he wanted from her. Sex. I believe that she gave him sex to get what she wanted from him-words of affirmation and a feeling of being wanted by another man other than your husband.

So, a very long answer. Those of you still reading thank you. I believe that he loved me before, during, and after the A. Did he show it? NO. His actions during that time were far from loving. But he was not capable of loving anyone truly during that time because he wasn't loving himself. In his mind, he never stopped loving me. So in moments of clarity, I try to understand. And I do.

Strength to you.

Is there a book like Love Dare that doesn't have a religious slant?

Cheaters love only themselves. They can devastate, use, destroy, and humiliate their betrayeds due to loving #1; themselves.

So much of what we're talking about here is really just language.

Language, on the whole, is a huge force, full of debris, not unlike a big, nasty hurricane. It's more than just "wind" (words?).

It's super complicated, but I think it's worth noting that the "debris" that can hurt us the most includes assumptions, vague/fuzzy definitions, irony and metaphor (you may find these in the subtle lies you've been told), etymology (talkin personal here, like the "history" of certain words/definitions that the talker carries with him/her).

So we're unpacking 'love' here in this thread. Easy to see how we can all have different definitions. WS can clearly define it one way, BS can define it another. Ok, fine.

But how about this sentence?

I was never going to leave you and never would even if I hated you

Wtf? Very interested in WS's definition of 'leave' here, or 'never would'. Cause from where I'm standing he 'left,' proving he 'absolutely would.'

How about the word 'unhappy'? Vague. Hard to define for your guy.

All of us can probably pick apart what the WS says into infinity. Hard to do in the moment, though.

I dunno, just some thoughts. Not sure this is helpful. But I know that I am proud that, moving forward, I am conscious of the language I use and careful to always be honest, accurate, and real. Because in truth, language is fallible, imperfect, capable of doing great harm, often in subtle, almost imperceptible ways. Trying to not let that happen on my watch.

I would hope that all BS are moving forward in the same way.

[This message edited by Okokok at 11:27 AM, October 9th (Monday)]

My husband was a late life baby. His sisters were much older than him. By the time he came along, his parents had already spent years building a strong marriage. Overseas with the marines, in the US building their dream home, etc. They were old enough and strong enough to pursue their individual dreams without hurting the bonds that they had formed in the previous decades. His dad spent the early years in overseas assignments. When his dad returned, his mom lived in the capital city during the week working for the Congress and traveled for the DAR. They came together on the weekends and enjoyed their family.

So, from his earliest perspective, love just is. He never saw the work-the couple working through issues, the bond building through fixing life's problems. He thought love just is. And people could be wholly themselves without that impacting their love. He never even considered that the early years may have been different. His entire view of love is based on that. He was this detached person very much in love from day one of our marriage. He thinks that if you love someone, you let them be themselves in all ways. His love was a big and passive love. He never really thought that love and actions are so tied together. To hm, conflict is lack of love.

He realized a lot of things as we talked after DD. He realized that he never engaged in the marriage. He never wholly committed like people do in the early years. He was acting like a couple who had already built the married Team without ever building the Team. He thought the Team just happened if you love someone.

It is all complicated by the fact that his parents had Great Expectations for hm, from the school he would attend to the high-profile career he would pursue. And he wasn't suited to any of it. And didn't want it. So, true love meant accepting all of her m for exactly who he is.

And letting him be him meant he could still flirt and be the guy he had become before marriage. Marriage, in his eyes, doesn't change who you are. He wouldn't have pursued anything before this all happened (when his parents were dying). But he still acted single and that is a hard thing for him to wrap his head around. A cognitive dissonance for him.

I can't judge him for that. I was the same way in my first marriage. I didn't know that you had to work on relationships. I loved greatly, but passively. It is hard for a person to feel love when loved passively. Or when loved by someone who disconnects actions from feelings. Someone who compartmentalizes actions from feelings. Someone who doesn't understand that in-live and love are two different things.

My point is that some people are better at others in active rather than passive love. - at acting in concert with their feelings.

No, WH admitted that he wasn't loving me at the moments he was with her. But he didn't love her at all. He still loved me, passively, and he compartmented me out of his head and heart when he was with her.

I can't judge him for not being in love with me at times because there are times I am most certainly not in love with him. Still love him, even when I want to smash him into the ground like the roadrunner under an anvil and run away. He dreamed of running away and didn't have the psychological tools needed to make the marriage work. I do, but then I have better coping mechanisms and the experience to recognize and ride the waves of a long-term relationship. He doesn't. And I do take issue with his coping mechanisms when he was unhappy with the marriage.

Personally, I don't think a marriage has to be a great passionate love story anymore. In-love comes and goes. (too bad he didn't know that.) People marry for many valid reasons and a good marriage needs way more than just love to survive.

Fortunately, I've healed to the point that if this ever happens again I will hurt but I will also consider him too stupid to be my husband anymore.

[This message edited by ncharge at 2:35 PM, October 9th (Monday)]

This is something I posted very recently on another thread in General. The question was "He said he always loved me." Btw, my FWH said the exact same things as your's except for this part: and never would even if I hated you

Once again, something they can sincerely believe. And, hey, who knows maybe they did. But, it is a moot point. Whether they loved us or not they still did what they did. Feeling that they still/always loved us does not mitigate their actions.

And how can they do this? How can they think they aren't going to hurt us?

They oftentimes can completely compartmentalize. They can separate their two different "lives" and feel that the one "life" doesn't affect the other "life" and they have nothing to do with each other.

Pretty much agree with everything ncharge posted. Good post, ncharge.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 11:52 AM, October 9th (Monday)]

For me it was a slope, first inappropriate talk, comfort and finally I slept with him. I was not able to see another way, the shame and the devastation from one year of fake soberity fuelled my anger and helped me leave sane thought behind. But I did love him, just not the active addict he was.

I think my WH was very attached to me. He was an addict (drugs, alcohol, shopping, porn, freakin' everything), so the love he felt for me was like a drug for a while, I think. Once the high wore off, I just became an extension of him in his mind. Something that belonged to him. I remember him saying during his infidelity time that I was like his mother, I'd do anything for him. I was a bit horrified by that, but I couldn't get him to explain that further. Ew. Not what I was looking to be, but that's how he'd begun to see me. I don't think he loved me. I think I was comforting to come home to after he'd lived his fun life elsewhere.

Now, after rehab and recovery, he suddenly really loves me. I think he does, based on actions more than words. One day I may even come to truly believe it in my heart, but I know that takes time. One of the hardest things for him to face was that while I was being a pretty great wife and considered him in my decisions, I didn't mean a damned thing to him. I was like his teddy bear or something. Not a separate person with feelings and needs. He just assumed I'd always be there and took me completely for granted. He was outrageously selfish. He has made great strides in all areas of his life that were affected by his selfishness and I hope he continues to.

But no. He didn't even come close to "loving" me during that time. Maybe not really ever until now.

I don't think they know what true love is. My WH went from 'ILYBINILWY we should divorce because i haven't been in love with you for over a year' to 'I love you and I want to reconcile'. Love cannot be switched on and off. I think WS are immature, their definition of love is whatever they are feeling at the moment. Love is more than a fleeting feeling. I still don't believe my WH truly loves me. He's never cheated on anyone else and he's also never told anyone else he loves them....lucky me .

I don't know if I will ever believe that he does. I also worry about his love for the children. Will it change once they are teenagers and don't make him feel good like they do as young kids? If love is a feeling his feelings will change as the kids do. He's a good dad but selfish because he chose himself over the kids in having the affair and ONS.

For love to be as simple as it is, it becomes a very difficult topic when we begin to try to describe it - largely because we've ALL lost the understanding of what it truly is. At the basis of this is a very spiritual question that can best be answered by simply asking - Who am I?

I think we can see this answer in the examples of something like the recent mass shooting in LV...where complete strangers used their own bodies, gave their own lives, for the benefit of another...even a complete stranger. Or firemen that rushed into a burning building on 911. We call them courageous, brave, heroes...but the simplicity is that they were essentially acting in response to who they are at the core - which is Love. These folks in LV didn't have time to choose bravery. The firemen didn't ask - "Exactly who are the people in this building?...because the OM works here." It's why almost every "hero" will immediately claim they aren't a hero. This isn't false modesty (though it may become that when the Love response gets adulterated by attention and fame)...these are people that were acting out of the basic essence of WHO they are.

Love can (and should) manifest itself in the actions of others. That should be a natural occurrence when we are in alignment with who we truly are. It flows out of us organically, without thought. It's testimony to both it's presence/existence...and to the state of self-awareness of the person/soul who IS it.

And herein lies the rub with infidelity. Obviously, lying and cheating are not acts reflective of love. But we ourselves are just as unaware of the Love that we are, because we are relying on the behavior of others to demonstrate love, to give us love, because WE don't understand we already ARE Love. We are no different than our own WSs because we are just as out of alignment with WHO we are..and are just as eagerly searching for the essence of that in something OUTSIDE of ourselves.

It's a big topic...probably much too big to have here, in the midst of such shocking empty-handedness..and often after such grave efforts on our part to demonstrate ourselves worthy (which we already are...so we will never reach that mark by the very fact that we cannot recognize that we already are. Same with Love).

All this to say...this becomes a much easier conversation when you simply leave love out of it. The behaviors themselves are much easier to negotiate and reconcile...without muddying those waters or adulterating Love by bringing it into the mix. Ask for what you want...the same way you order your pizza. And if your WS keeps flubbing up the order, then learn to appreciate the uniqueness of pineapple and cheese...or find a different joint.

These are scary threads to jump into, as a WS.

I think it's pretty safe to say that no BS feels loved when their spouse has an affair. WS shouldn't feel loving when having one, either. It isn't a loving action, nor is it a loving mindset. Ever. And ultimately, if you don't feel loved, what does it matter if they do or don't? Perception is reality.

But I think about it as a very extreme example on a large spectrum. We all do unloving things on a regular basis. Maybe it's spending money on something that you know your spouse wouldn't like, or badmouthing their friends. Maybe it's leaving your dirty socks on the floor for days even though you know it drives them crazy. Maybe it's driving recklessly, or belittling their career. Maybe it's swearing like a sailor, or avoiding spending time with their FOO. Maybe it's undermining their parenting, or criticising their sense of humor. Maybe it's drinking too much, or throwing up what you eat.

Doing those things doesn't mean you don't love your spouse. It means you did something unloving, and the reason you did that probably has a lot more to do with you than it does with them. All unloving actions put the self over the relationship. They all say "I am not thinking/don't care about your feelings right now". I think infidelity is the most extreme example of that.

For me personally, I was thinking only about how to prop up my self esteem and my self worth, and until that was taken care of, nothing else mattered to me. I wasn't equipped to handle the depressive episode I was going through, and I made the worst possible choices in an attempt to cope, but it wasn't about if I did or did not love BH. It was about stopping the figurative bleeding in my head.

I think it's important to remember that it's true when they say the affair had nothing to do with the BS. That includes (in my mind) the love that may or may not be felt. Obviously no WS has an affair because they love their spouse, but I do think some do despite it.

Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disregard.

Truthsetmefree, that was pretty awesome and deep. Got me thinking.

You think maybe the reason so many of us are blindsided and utterly shocked by our WS' actions to the point where we cease to understand or trust humanity at large is that we naively project who we are onto other people? Maybe it opens us up to the reality that we are at our core all very different people and we can't necessarily know who a person is until they face that moment and have to become a hero or a coward. We think we're with heroes, but when the bullets start flying, they throw us in front of them and run away.

If they're lucky, they are horrified by that and work towards becoming Love instead of Fear.

If we're lucky, we figure out who we are at our cores and love that person with all of our hearts.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 3:09 PM, October 9th (Monday)]

ThisEffingSucks

I coulkd have written almost word for word what you posted. WW said very much the same thing

I think it's important to remember that it's true when they say the affair had nothing to do with the BS. That includes (in my mind) the love that may or may not be felt. Obviously no WS has an affair because they love their spouse, but I do think some do despite it.

As a MH, I can only speak for myself. When I had my RA, I did not love my husband. I didn't love myself, I didn't love anything in the world. It was definitely about him, but I didn't love. I was nothing but rage and pain. If he cheated out of unbearable pain as he says, I don't think he had the capacity to love me at all.

Wow, ncharge and truth, I thought I had a grip on things but you have both shown me again that we learn every single day. Amazing posts!

CantSleepCantEat A lot of what you wrote resonates with me. I don't think my WH ever stopped loving me, but I do think he was thinking more about his own needs than our needs as a couple. He loved me, but his actions were not loving. He compartmentalized his love for me and it had no bearing on what he did with the OW. He's explained that he was extremely conflicted during the A. At no point did he think of leaving me (and it wouldn't have been hard really since we weren't married yet). He was "falling in love" with the OW because he was spending more time with her than he was with me. She was there in his city while I finished up my degree in a different city. I think another big factor was that we were in different phases our relationships with my WH. While he and I were fairly well established (5 years together long distance) his relationship with the OW was in the infatuation stage.