SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you all for your posts. Wants sleep can't eat thank you for posting it means alot. I hear what you are saying and I know that there is truth in it. It's hard for me to come to grips that one. An be in that mental state for 2 years and watch me give birth two his only 2 kids and still behave in that manner and feel no love towards me. That's a scary thing.

I do think his affair was about him getting his ego stroked. Me having kids I felt should have been a wake up call but instead I think it didn't help things as I recall him fomenting that no one cared about him once I was pregnant. It's just so sad and selfish.

When my husband, prior to d-day, thought of love, he was not thinking "what am I giving?" Instead, he was thinking, "what am I getting?" It's all take, take, take. And, that can never be a real definition of love.

I loved my husband, he wanted me to continue to love him, but he didn't want to give love, do the work of love. He wanted to take from as many sources as he could find, but not give. So, when he would say he always loved me, it was him saying he always wanted me to continue giving and him to continue taking. And, so under his definition of love, he loved me and whomever else gave him what he wanted.

Now, he has learned a new definition of love. Love is what you give, not what you take. So, he didn't really love his APs, yay! That, however, is cold comfort because he also didn't really love me either. And, it was a struggle for him to finally completely break down and admit that according to the definition of love he now knows, he never loved anyone, including me. But, it was also freeing.

That, however, is cold comfort because he also didn't really love me either. And, it was a struggle for him to finally completely break down and admit that according to the definition of love he now knows, he never loved anyone, including me. But, it was also freeing.

EDarcy, that was awfully tough for my WH too, but it was necessary that he face it. He had to face it in regards to his own child, and that was pretty awful too.

I heard the same generic and cliché response almost everyone here has. "Of course I love you. I always have and always will." Yeah right, because nothing screams love like a LTA.

During his LTA no I do not believe he loved me. I think he hated me. Does he love me now? Who knows. I don't believe anything anymore.

we can't necessarily know who a person is until they face that moment and have to become a hero or a coward.

DevastatedDee - I would actually take that one step further. We cannot know the place from which a person is operating until the bullets start flying. I think in those incidents we either see recognition/alignment of the Real Self (Love) - or we see the reptilian brain (Fear/preservation of the Ego).

In fairness, it's a rather extreme example to use to cast stones at the reptilian brain - we are humans after all and are bound by certain constraints that this experience entails. I used that more to emphasis the true presentation of Love (extreme because it DID override the reptilian brain). But for the sake of looking at this in terms of infidelity, I think it certainly applies. People that are looking for Love outside of themselves are operating out of the lower self. The Higher Self would never go that avenue to find it...if only because it understands that it isn't missing it. Deep, hard to rap the human brain around it...and largely irrelevant when it comes to negotiating boundaries in a relationship.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 5:36 PM, October 9th (Monday)]

I do not believe my WH loved or loves me. I do believe that there are probably a good number of spouses who do love in spite of everything, though.

Well they say they do .... who the fuck knows - and I have zero desire to really figure it out.

The A was a LTA/Exit/Double Betrayal A - because they were soooo in love. They are still together last I knew which was several yrs ago.

If your cheater is a narcissist, they do not love. They are happy that you love them and make them look and feel awesome. But give love? Narcissists are incapable. They seriously would not understand what that even means.

Someone using the word Love and saying they Love is just one more form of manipulation. They know how we lap it up like dogs. They say, "I always loved you," but that does NOT mean they understand love or feel it as we do. We see their horrid actions. Why are we so hung up on the truth of their words? Are we desperate? We must be if we ignore actions and instead celebrate mere words.

DevastatedDee,

Yes, confronting that love as he now understands it also means he did not love our children was very difficult for him. We were nothing but supporting actors in his play of life, simply there as an extension of himself. This has been a long hard process, for him to realize the depth of this reality. It's funny (not ha ha) that for years he complained that his parents treated him in this way. Realizing he did the same to his own children and to me was monumental.

If my WH would have only cheated on me once, maybe I would think he loved me. But, he did it again. I think he doesn't know how to love. He is working on that in IC.

Lucky me.

Real love is putting someone else above yourself, letting someone into your most inner, intimate and vulnerable place.

This is just one perspective and it might even be the Biblical perspective.

However, in real life, we use words and terminology in very individual ways.

I feel that love means whatever the person using that term thinks it means. Therefor if someone tells their AP they love them, then IMO, they do.

I just posted this on another thread about whether our spouse told the AP they loved them.

Mine did. He admitted saying it but said he didn't really love her, or why would he be able to dump her so quickly? Well, if he "felt" like he loved her enough at the time he said it, then he loved her, that is my view.

He also said he never stopped loving me. It is just words. He treated me horribly during that time and he knows it. It's just words. If he still loved me then it was not a nice way to show it, but I don't really get caught up in the way humans use language. It is just too individual and subjective.

DevastatedDee,

Yes, confronting that love as he now understands it also means he did not love our children was very difficult for him. We were nothing but supporting actors in his play of life, simply there as an extension of himself. This has been a long hard process, for him to realize the depth of this reality. It's funny (not ha ha) that for years he complained that his parents treated him in this way. Realizing he did the same to his own children and to me was monumental.

Yes, so much similarity there. I believe that's what I was, an extension of himself. Something to make him feel good. Mine complained that his dad never really loved him or put him as a priority and had to realize that he had become his dad in the worst way.

Truthsetmefree, you're a pretty smart woman. You've really had me thinking yesterday and today.

People that are looking for Love outside of themselves are operating out of the lower self. The Higher Self would never go that avenue to find it...if only because it understands that it isn't missing it

^^^ This...is so true. Our WSs were operating from the reptilian brain.

Mine did. He admitted saying it but said he didn't really love her, or why would he be able to dump her so quickly? Well, if he "felt" like he loved her enough at the time he said it, then he loved her, that is my view.

He also said he never stopped loving me. It is just words.

^^^And this...also true.

This is why it is so hard to wrap our brains around it. BobbiSue, my fWH said exactly the same-must be a line out of the cheater's handbook.

No answer is right-my fWH wasn't horrible to me. He wasn't overly nice and we were pretty distant, but he wasn't horrible. Sigh...who the fuck knows anymore?

Great question. My WW can't say for sure if she did. She felt the marriage was dead and she wanted to feel loved, wanted, etc. All the things the OP provides. And I wasn't providing ANY of what she needed. I forgave her and I've heard " I love you" more since D Day than in a very long time. I'm hoping it's true and we're stronger now.

If i had to guess one waqy or the other. I'd say they don't. at least at the time of the A. You don't do that if you really love your partner.

, I am in R with one of those 'I loved you the whole time' WS. That's why I didn't leave. I didn't want a D blah blah blah. I'm disgusted just thinking about it!

he went NC immediately. He is working hard to prove his love. The truth was he wasn't loving anyone right, not even our kids. He was living as a complete liar. He was even crappy to our dog and lied to family and friends and it's not like he really loved OW either. He dumped her like nothing. He was self destructive and loathed himsel. He would get sick every morning in the shower. He hated himself when it all came out. I am rambling but don't really know the answer. He was crappy all around at that time. He also started privately drinking. It was all escape and fantasy.

I don't think he knew how to love before. That sacrificial love. That putting someone else's needs first love. That wanting to bless the other person first love I think he was too concerned with his own self validation and happiness. I didn't see this for 15 dang years. It's like he is finally really learning how to love what he really loves.

Naive, other folks have given a lot of good answers... the things you remember him saying sound a lot like depression. And depression lies.

I don't know if your husband loved you, loves you or will love you... i couldnt tell you that even if i met him in person.

But i can tell you... you sound stronger today than you did last year. A lot stronger.

Of course the answer depends on many factors since it is a matter of dealing with unique individuals. It wouldn't be accurate to make a blanket statement that all cheaters never loved their BS.

I am sure that a certain amount of them believed that they did love their spouse but part of the problem, the issue that made cheating a permissable act in their mind, is that they have a warped meaning of love. Love is an action, as the saying goes. "Love is patient, it is kind, it does not envy, it does not brag, it is not proud." I am not a religious person but I do agree with this.

Many cheaters would have to admit that their definition of love, the rules of what loving another person bound them to, just didn't include the abovementioned beliefs.

My ex was impatient: he didn't want to put the time and effort into working on our problems or facing issues that were clearly before him. I think, in his own way, he loved me but that doesn't mean that his love was the kind of love I deserved.

I haven't read all of the other posts yet, but I posted a similar question months ago and the answers really helped me sort my thoughts and my WH identify his true feelings. He said the same things: he always loved me, he never meant to hurt, was never going to leave me, whatever. After reading here, he recognized that what he felt for me was not real love. He was immature and selfish and he loved what I provided him. Companionship, security, comfort, support. We both thought we had a good marriage because we enjoyed each other's company and had great sex. Post-A, we see how he kept me at arm's length, lying about little things (porn use) and then bigger things (how much time he was spending with COW) to maintain control. He was never willing to be vulnerable or put my needs first. Without those, I don't think it can be the kind of deep love that long term marriage requires. I did love him like that, which is why I never cheated even when the opportunity presented itself. I wasn't interested. I don't know if this helps, but these are my thoughts and experience grappling with these questions.

When ever I think of my husband claiming he loved me during the time he was betraying me, I remember the princess bride.

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