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And you needed this? In order to feel good about yourself? Agree with smokenfire. there is a difference between open marriages and having affairs to make yourself feel better or to harm someone else. One might be considered healthy and ok. The latter is dysfunctional and destructive.

Nicenomore:

I definitely was thinking about / hoping that something would develop between me and the OBS for revenge purposes, but in my situation, attempting to do so would have been taking advantage of her. She was, understandably, crushed (as we all are), but an RA just wasn't where her head was at and how she felt she needed to heal. She was really sweet and it just wasn't something that I'd have proactively sought out with her.

In your case, though, it sounds like the OBS was angry and felt the same way about an RA and you and I do. I wish.

In any event, I don't talk about RA to brag or anything like that. I feel like shit to be in this situation at all, but I think that in the grand scheme of things, I handled things well. I never truly flipped out and barely even fought with her in front of the kids on or after d-day, and never just sat there screaming at her, etc. Two days after d-day, she also refused to promise to never say another word to her LTA AP, and seemed crushed by me insisting that she not even be allowed to say goodbye to him. Of course, she then met up with him and rastled with him again one last time (at least).

So, I checked out for a few months and had my fun, and finally relented to her attempts to reignite something between us. The OM threw her under the bus, not because he was attempting to R with the OBS (she kicked him out and is divorcing him), but because my W was convinced that they were going to run off into the sunset together, get married, and live happily ever after, and was freaking the OM the fuck out. My poor, poor W then finally realized that he was just banging her because she was dishing it out so easily, and wasn't interested in being a step-father to her 3 different kids with 2 different men (DIRRRRRRR!) Meanwhile, she was aware that the woman I started dating (and dated for a few months) didn't have any kids, was attractive, and was, you know, SINGLE!

I get that not everyone thinks it is the moral thing to do. But for the life of me, I don't understand how people argue that it's the same thing.

[This message edited by SilverLinings55 at 2:58 PM, November 13th (Monday)]

I get that not everyone thinks it is the moral thing to do. But for the life of me, I don't understand how people argue that it's the same thing.

Its not the same. Its people that see only black and white and can't get off their moral high horse. Or they prefer the moral high horse because it gives them a sense of righteousness. I mean you can call the death sentence murder and technically it is since you are taking a life, But on the other side of the coin, you are taking the life of someone that chose to kill someone in cold blood and using it as a form of punishment. Am I really suppose to feel all that bad for a petty murderer and equate the two things as the same? Nobody had to be murdered but obviously one begat the other.

After an affair, a part of me says, your marriage has been so destroyed, just fuck it all and stab it dead.

Zug- anyone can make an argument for or against RAs. I would classify what i did as open and honest. I never withheld information, i told my exw that If she felt like our marriage wasn’t enough, she had every right to tell me, and move on with integrity. But by lying and sneaking around, she unilaterally made a decision to end the marital vows and kept me in the dark like a fool. Now she’s would say it was just exciting, caught up in it, she wanted our M, didn’t love him, etc etc, she did in fact cut all ties to OM after dday...she realized what it was she’s stood to lose. But i unlike her, was upfront. I told her i no longer felt committed, and that regardless of what she did or whether we were to be together, i would have the right to discover what Is truly best for me, and make a decision then. As i have stated before, i told her i could pretend to R, and sneak around on her. That to me would have been immoral, and a true RA. But I did not. I told her until I decided otherwise, i was free to find love, passion and comfort where i saw fit, and so was she. This may have hurt her, and I regret the collateral pain she’s suffered even though she destroyed my world 10 fold, but it wasn’t out of a place of malice. It was for my own benefit. As others have stated, I’ve never tolerated disrespect from others in maybe life up to that point; and i wasn’t about to start as a cuckold who didn’t have the spine to do what felt right for me at the time. You can say what you beleive, I’ll respect others opinions, but i know it helped me discover truths about my life. And her response to my attitude clearly showed me that by having respect for my own decisions and being firm in my resolve, she had respect for me. She saw right away that I wouldn’t tolerate bullshit, and knew games would be ineffective. As for the OM and his OBS, the goal initially was not to sleep with her. That was a byproduct of our bonding, An we helped each other through a very difficult time in each other’s lives. We may have used each other to some where, but i can assure you we are both grateful for each other to this day. I consider her a good friend, and she the same for me. As for the OM, just the fact that the stars would align for justice was chance. I don’t care what anyone says about hurting him to make myself happier as unhealthy. It’s just not true. One of the single biggest reasons i have been able to find happiness in my life after this trauma, was knowing that I wasn’t left kicked in the gut with no justice for my pain. i may not relish as much in what i did tonhim these days, but I see nothing wrong in taking satisfaction in being attacked, and mortally wounding my attacker. I think it follows natural order. If a man breaks into your home and tries shooting at you, do you sit there with your arms crossed taking each bullet, or do you fire back to protect your life? i view what I did as the equivalent to protecting my honor and self respect. I was attacked, the OM knew us, knew I was her husband, and didn’t care. I took my attacker, and put him down like a rabid dog (not literally). at this stage in my life, despite what she did to me, i am empathetic to my exw, and feel guilt for the pain my actions caused her, but to this day I don’t feel an OUNCE of shame guilt or empathy for the OM. Only his wife who was/is an amazing person who deserves far better. Some will say the OM owed me nothing, and if he was a total stranger who didn’t know she was married, I would agree. i can’t hate a a fellow man for trying to do what is natural. I can hate a man for disrespecting me and not paying the piper for it. Had he been a wiser man, he would have known I was not one to be messed with.

Randy, Silver lining, and Nicenomore. Thank you so much for your contributions. I was hoping you guys would respond. I agree with the points you say, although Nicenomore, I like the idea of revenge on an AP but always feel the WS is the #1 real issue.

Randy, I have admired and respected your posts from afar for a while now. When others argued with you, I passively unspoken agreed with you. I agree with your pros and cons for RAs. Although my marriage situation is very different than yours was (I'm sorry you went through all that with such a remorseless bitch wife, but also glad you got out), I have been in a situation very much like yours years back. Except it was with a bf who I'd only dated for a matter of months, not a wife. His A was basically an exit affair. He was unremorseful and had planned to continue dating his AP, and did so for a while. Like your situation with your ex wife, it was rather unnecessary for me to call it "revenge" and although a felt vindicated from moving on as well, it did not compare to what he'd done to me. When we were fighting, he even rubbed salt in the wound by bragging that he'd cheated first. (It was also a very immature "relationship" as you can probably tell) In situations like yours and my aforementioned ex-bf situation, I think the choice to have a RA really depends on how willing and happy the BS/BP is to have a ONS or fling. If someone is a prude or won't derive any fun from a fling, then yeah trying to have an affair for attempted "revenge" will backfire. In my case, I had no moral qualms against ONS especially since my revenge ONS was with an ex I'd already knew well, not just some random stranger. I enjoyed a promiscuous lifestyle before the WBF, and had put that lifestyle on halt in order to obligatorily be a good GF to the WBF...which was where most of my resentment lay, that being good for once only made me a fool. The WBF's affair also left me sex deprived while it was in process, which also had me feeling resentful and looking to stray (yes I was/am a SA). But I just wrote a whole lot of yadda yadda about a frivolous ex-bf not worth that much effort. Lol. So yes, I agree with many of your points.

Silverlining, like you, I wouldn't have been able to R without having flings of my own, voluntarily or psychologically. I see examples of BSs who literally went off the deep end after staying victims. Example, a soap opera my grandmother used to watch. A BW ended up in the mental hospital for 3 decades after her husband fathered an affair baby. Yes that is just a stupid TV show. But the point still remains. Boards like this have suicide contemplation threads in the general board for a reason. I'm glad you stood up for your needs.

Smokenfire, I am very sorry you disagree so staunchly with me and feel I should post here. I'm only trying to offer an alternative view since the conventional suck it up and "take the higher road" with a WS isn't a viable, desirable, realistic option for some of us. What is your story and how did everything pan out?

Zug- anyone can make an argument for or against RAs.

I am not saying anything about having an open relationship or being upfront and in a relationship. I am talking about using people to make yourself feel better about yourself. Call yourself a BS or WS it is still the same side of the coin if you are doing it to seek validation. IMO just as bad if done with vengeful intentions. But maybe I can't understand since I was just a classic cake eater and didn't have my affair out of spite, resentment, or vengeance. It is one thing to think the marriage is over. It is another thing to seek vengeance or to use another person to build yourself up. The latter just is wayward mentality. There is nothing good or healthy about needing to use someone to build yourself up. Been there done that, and I will call BS when I see it because I have learned that lesson. Do I understand it and the need? Of course. Afterall I am wayward, but do I think it is okay just because you got cheated on? No. Never. Because the intentions behind it are still unhealthy and toxic.

Your argument makes some logical sense- but I would posit that as the first ws your “need” for unhealthy validation wasn’t cut from the same cloth as a bs need after an affair. The first one who cheats may be bored of the mundane, have unmet needs, foo issues...or any combination of the above. A bs responding with the newfound need after their WS affair has been shattered in the worst way possible, To equate the justifications for the need for validation as all equally reprehensible i think would be a generalization. The “unhealthy” may never have existed in the betrayed until the core of self esteem has been shattered. I cannot for any reason see how a cheated spouse seeking their own happiness after being betrayed can compare to the lying and deceiving the first cheater has to maintain. But, i was the betrayed first, so l am surely also biased. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one

that it’s more malicious because we set out to cause pain, that we lost the moral high ground...but truthfully that’s just a lot of holier than thou bs. As a betrayed. You have the right to live your life and get your damn self respect back. If the waywards don’t like it, it’s too bad, you reap what you sew. And if they dare make the hypocritical claim that they want you back but couldn’t live with you being with someone else then know that your lucky to be getting a way from them, because they have no idea what real personal sacrifice looks like. Had my exw spouted any of that shit off to me, i wouldn’t have even given her a chance.

Yes, that is how I have always thought too. I've been the initial WP in other relationships and I afforded the BP a chance to get even. Did I like it or want that? No. But I lost that right when I chose to stray.

I also agree that if someone is a cheater but won't stay with you after you stray on them, then yes they're not someone worth staying with.

I like the idea of revenge on an AP but always feel the WS is the #1 real issue

This is a thread I didn't believe I would ever see here, a totally justified affair. Imagine that.

Smoken..affair doesn’t suit what i had. I laid all the card on the table. I disclosed my intentions and what my actions would be. i told exw In no uncertain terms that at the time she was as free as I was. An affair to me would imply that i was secretive in my actions, that i employed deception, trickle truthing, gas lighting. I did none of those things. I viewed myself as a single man from the time of her affair on, and while i had made clear i was willing to consider taking her back and working on R, that she was free to pursue whatever avenue she wished. From my perspective i was not having affairs. In technical terms maybe infidelity by law,but for practical purposes i had promised her nothing that i didn’t deliver on, or rather reneged on. There was no dishonesty from me.

Since you asked...

I was originally the WS. My ex (found out after the fact he was never faithful) cheated through out the marriage, but that's what happens when you have no soul. Mine was an exit affair that failed and I ended up staying for twenty more years.

I doubt this site is a good fit for you because while you have the absolute right to live your life anyway you wish, this site, and specifically this board is for WS who are remorseful and are working hard to change themselves and save their marriage. Sometimes there are RA and more often not. To state freely and endorse having a revenge affair and that you have no remorse is a slap in the faces of those who are actively working to save their marriage.

Recently you posted:

I've been on both sides. I know I wouldn't be able to reconcile with a cheater while staying loyal. Yes, you are hypocritical to not want to stay with her after an affair yet you had multiple affairs. Shame on you. When I cheated on someone (who never even made me his gf or anything with any required monogamy), I told him soon after and when I saw how hurt he was, I gave him permission to have a fling himself. Turns out he was seeing girls or at least looking for something better the whole time I knew him. He was an all around jerk and he did eventually hypocritically hold my own fling against me, even after having flings before and after mine while seeing me. So obviously things did not work out. But even with a jerk I afforded him that opportunity.

In my current marriage, I cheated after he did (but I didn't know for sure he did at the time). I was already planning to suggest a threesome so I could feel that he'd become even with me. In fact, I might still do that because 1 it'd be fun and 2 technically he's not even with me because he did less sexually than I did. But I've also realized recently that I'm really not the monogamous type and neither is my husband. (We both have a history of SA)

How much do you value your marriage and keeping her? That should guide your empathy towards her need to scratch an itch. And I can't blame her.

Do you know the OP well and his story? Did you miss the part where he realized it could be a consequence to his initial actions? Have you spent months watching him bust his ass, going far above and beyond what most people do?

How was you said helpful? The truth is that infidelity for some folks, no matter how willing they are to work on the marriage, is a deal breaker. I've seen BSs who WANTED to be married to their spouse, put in really hard work only to find they could not move past it. WS's are aware it could happen and they deal with that in many different ways.

You've clearly dug your heals in on this one, but I can tell you from experience, if you were the WS and said you had no remorse, you'd get 2 x 4s because we hold each other to a standard.

I put a section in boldface because I found it interesting and telling. You cheated BEFORE you knew for sure. Do you have any idea how many people use that exact excuse to have an affair? TONS. Oh well they were cheating first. Watch any show that offers lie detectors and you'll see what I mean. One party is super jealous and accuses of cheating and the person takes the test and BAM they never cheated but the other did because they THOUGHT they were cheating. It's a common means to justify what they want to do and the one thing WSs are not good at is originality. There's a play book somewhere that we all use.

ETA:

By that logic, if your spouse forgets your birthday or anniversary, that gives you the ability to commit infidelity. I mean after all you did promise to love, cherish and honor them and you couldn't even remember their birthday.

[This message edited by smokenfire at 9:52 PM, November 13th (Monday)]

Smoken- I’m sure you have some points about marylins post that are justifiably questionable...not that i wish to attack her for telling her story or sharing her opinions in her experiences, but i questioned her stepping out before she had conclusive proof of her husbands infidelity, and to her credit, she did comment on the fact that she regretted that. Im still not in favor of how she handled that, but I can’t say she didn’t acknowledge her errors there...and again...I’m not one to judge so I won’t...

But I would say the logic you used regarding forgetting a birthday as justification for an affair seems a little skewed...i mean the scale of the marital offense needs to hold more weight than just the binary concept of upholding vows versus not.. forgetting an anniversary makes someone apathetic, or an idiot, but is certainly not of the same offense caliber as infidelity or domestic violence...know what i mean? In the court of law we put punish convicted murderers and serial rapists with life in prison, , but I’ve never seen someone get a life sentence at a Supermax for stealing From a store...guess my point is logic in a vacuum makes sense, but the heinous nature of the offense bears weight in the depth of the repercussion...in both the humanitarian sense of justice, and the legal form of it. Just my 2cents

I still don't understand this thread. The OP DID NOT have a revenge affair. So whether you agree or disagree about the merits of revenge affairs is irrelevant. She had an affair period. I have read on here so many times where a WS justified their affair by saying they thought the other spouse was cheating so they figured it was fine. The fact that you found out your suspicions were true after the fact doesn't give you some moral high ground. You're both just cheaters. And you're actually the worst kind, a remorseless WS.

I cheated first. I never told my husband his cheating was okay. Does that make me a hypocrite? No because I told him mine was not okay either. Would leaving because he cheated have made me a hypocrite? Possibly but I didn't I stayed and worked just like he did. We have not only survived but thrived because we both have remorse and worked hard to build something awesome. We would not be together if he ever said any of what you are. And he had way more justification because he knew for a fact all the details. Does he feel the same level of regret I do? Probably not and that's fine, I understand why and would probably feel the same way.

We would not be together if he had your attitude. Not because of the cheating but because you can't care very much about someone you are so proud of hurting.

I doubt this site is a good fit for you because while you have the absolute right to live your life anyway you wish, this site, and specifically this board is for WS who are remorseful and are working hard to change themselves and save their marriage. Sometimes there are RA and more often not. To state freely and endorse having a revenge affair and that you have no remorse is a slap in the faces of those who are actively working to save their marriage.

I'm not so sure that is correct for everyone. You are lumping everyone into the wayward category, but there are so many variations. There are several posters that I've heard say that they couldn't have reconciled if they hadn't had an RA. SL once described it as being "uncucked" which made a lot of sense to me. I kind of think of it as restoring a sense of balance in the marriage. As long as that imbalance exists there is going to be resentment. I'm not saying having an RA will solve that imbalance completely, but saying its not a valid option (apart from divorcing your wayward or stay faithful to your wayward) might be a bit presumptuous.

That said, I somehow doubt the success rates of RA's vs the SI way are that good. But what may work for some, may not work for others. Also, I think having remorse for someone that stayed faithful is different than having remorse for someone that did not. Affairs are things where it seems after that box is opened, all bets are off.

I must ask though, in hindsight do you think your ONS was simply a regrettable impulse act due to being angry in the heat of the moment, or do you think it was something you felt was necessary even once you calmed down from the shock of DDay? If you could redo DDay, would you still have had the ONS? Also, do you feel 1 ONS was sufficient against his multiple hookers or do you think you'll need to do this again?

I think if I'd had any sanity about me that day, I'd have just packed up and left him. I'd have been done. I can't tell you whether the right choice would have been to end the marriage or to have had the RA and thus been able to stay and work on it. Only time will tell on that.

No, there is no true vengeance against anyone who cheats first. I didn't cause him a tenth of the pain he caused me. I will not do this again. Either this marriage will work out or I will be single and thus free to do whatever I want.

I think it is important to clarify, as I think nicenomore did, that I wasn't sneaking around or anything. I very definitively told her that we were DONE after I walked in on what I did on d-day.

All of this having been said, despite the history and the fact that I'd have to rack up multiple additional AP's over 4 years to "even the score", now that we are firmly attempting R, we are operating with the same set of standards for our conduct.

I'm going to be brutally honest here. I think it is outrageous for someone to say I jumped the gun on my RA simply because I didn't have proof of my WH"s cheatings. I waited well over a year, trying my hardest to collect evidence and elicit a confession. Nothing worked other than obtaining a mountain of evidence that showed I'd be totally naive to NOT think he was cheating or at least had at one point or another. I wrote on other websites and everyone, I mean everyone, said it was super obvious he'd cheated. They even went so far as to accuse me of putting on blinders and making excuses for WH. They didn't know what I was waiting for when it came to responding accordingly to it (whether that be divorcing, having a RA, etc). This wasn't a case of me having no evidence at all and using an outlandish accusation to justify me tasting different flavors. This was a case of me lashing out after stupidly, naively applying the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept, which only resulted in $100s going missing that he was continuing to spend on other women (as Google Locations clearly showed). This was a case of WH's cheatings, physical and/or financial, continuing after he already knew I was suspicious and extremely,extremely angry. As I predicted, he later admitted he kept doing it because he thought nothing's gonna change (so to aptly quote the Limp Bizkit song "Nookie," about a guy who knows he's being cheated on but never leaves and never reacts). I was getting angry and paying for MC, but never actually leaving or cheating back. I do not think it is fair to compare me to someone who conjures up accusations with no factual basis, to use as a lame excuse to cheat. Oh and by the way, in addition to all the evidence I had against him, as a "fringe benefit" he did forget my birthday and anniversary too, yet spent hundreds on another girl only a few weeks later. So I got the worst of it all.

Randy 1133, once again you are the voice of reason and wisdom! I agree with everyone you've said. And no, I would not have been able to R with feeling so uneven. I was already declaring to WH and my in laws that I was divorcing him, a day before I had sex with that 24-yr-old college student sex worker.

I feel people are not very open-minded.i guess the only SI-approvable choices I had in my plight was to R with an unremorseful serial cheater, or vent on here while carrying out the motions of a codependent marriage. Or divorce, which literally would have put me homeless, since I cannot afford the bills on my own let alone pay all the bills + pay child support and alimony. I would have lost my house and in turn lose custody of my kids to my in laws...so who would have been the one really getting punished most for my husband's cheatings?

[This message edited by madhattermarilyn at 12:41 PM, November 14th (Tuesday)]

Fyi not sure how much longer I'll be sticking around here, given how I'm already getting reprimanded in PM about not choosing to stay loyal to a cheater. To those of you who actually related to me, you can reach me at: DO NOT POST PERSONAL INFO

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:55 PM, November 14th (Tuesday)]