SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

nekonamida my kids know nothing of his infidelity and I have never acted that way towards him in front of them, we were not even in the house with them when I acted so foul, not EVER.

Brennan87, yup, and my IC even called it 2 years ago.

They are only human and can only take so much abuse and what I was doing was abusive, I recognize that for what it is.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 9:13 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]

Having said that what you have described of your own actions is abuse, plain and simple.

I agree, it was abuse, I am not proud of it.

I think this was more of a wake up call for me than a d-day for me. I know cheating is absolutely inexcusable, but I am the BS and even I almost can't blame him this time, he tried and tried for 4 years.

This time he didn't seek it out, and I feel that some flirty emails and a kiss before he cut it off and drove away, don't erase all the work he's done on himself, and I know some may say he hasn't done the work if he allowed this to happen, but in reality, he has done a ton of work on himself.

We have talked all day, more than we have in a year. I've now admitted to him, that I was awful to him at times, and I've apologized myself for treating him that way which was NEVER something I could do before, I wouldn't ever admit to wrong doing before because I was always the better person and "above him".

We've decided to go back to IC and try to truly, actually heal from this and try again.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 5:49 PM, September 6th (Friday)]

If you don't want a divorce, then don't get one.

I get it, I really do. Our timelines are similar. In fact, right now, I'm at odds with my fWH too. He's been a misery for the past year and not hearing me when I tell him how bad his constant pessimism is sinking me. It's not even about big things. It's daily life, traffic, work, aging, aches and pains, all stuff we have in common if he could just get off his pity pot and notice he's not alone. I feel like he should be happy he had a second chance and he should willing to recognize that I'm not some kind of emotional vomitorium for him to barf out all his negativity every minute of the day. So, for the last five or six months, I've just stepped back. I keep to myself and let him flounder. Initially, I thought, he'll miss me and he'll finally be willing to HEAR me in order to put it back together. But he's a self-centered person and that was NOT something we've been able to resolve in R, and I'm too damned stubborn to back off.

Anyway, I get it. I understand how things can go off track and how we all have our part to play in that. Of course, the choice to cheat is always about the cheater. Your WH could have come to you and noped out before he got himself in a situation where he was kissing a coworker. That's on him.

If R is still what you want though, I do think IC would be helpful in getting your anger under control. At the bottom line, a WS can never change the past. When we take them back, we have to acknowledge that there's not going to be any justice for the injuries they've caused. There's some debate as to whether the WS "gets away with it" when we choose to continue the marriage, and even though some folks say they don't, I think they do. And even worse, we have to let them. Because if we hold onto that need to punish, the nagging insult of injustice, it ends up biting us on the ass. You can't reconcile and punish at the same time. It doesn't work because it doesn't achieve your goals. In R, your goal is a loving, reciprocal, relationship which is satisfying to both partners. It can't work when it's not equal.

It's not an easy thing to let it go. That sense of injustice blazes like the surface of the sun. But it burns BOTH parties when it's let out of the box in the form of punishment. It's basically the Karpman Triangle, becoming a destructive loop.

Your WH could have come to you and noped out before he got himself in a situation where he was kissing a coworker. That's on him.

I completely agree. I refuse to EVER take *blame* or even partial blame for his cheating, never have and never will. BUT this time I can almost understand the "why" of it and how he slipped down that slope a little after being beaten down for 4 years, where he was genuinely trying.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 6:56 PM, September 6th (Friday)]

But after a while, I knew I was being awful. I just always felt more in control that way.

BTDT.

For me, it wasn't about control as much as it was about superiority and power (that's where the control part came in)

I was raised with the notion that all nuclear relationships had winners and loser...whether it was the parent child relationship or the marital one. Clearly being the winner was being better.

My mom also taught me how to cut down others quick as a wink. I got pretty good at making DH feel like absolute shit in under 5 minutes.

I do have to be careful that I don't use these tactics if I want to have positive relationships with my husband and my kids.

^ I mean I think that was part of it too. If I felt superior then I felt in control, if I kept kicking him down, keeping the upper hand myself, and making him feel like shit, then in my mind, he wasn't important enough to have the power to hurt me again.

If I'm reading the situation correctly, your husband has done a lot of work on himself over the last four years, but you have not. When your therapist tried to get you to look at yourself, you quit.

I do think this is a wake up call for you. Whether you R or D, you need to learn to self-soothe, you need to learn to how to process and release anger without being abusive, and you need to work on yourself.

I would also caution against making any large life decisions like moving states right now. Get back with your IC and start unpacking all of this stuff. Make sure that you're not just hoping that your problems won't follow you there.

swmnbc whether it follows us there or not, that is my home state and it's where I would be going in the event of D, I've been waiting for 8 years to go back.

Whether you R or D, you need to learn to self-soothe, you need to learn to how to process and release anger without being abusive

I do need to learn that, but the thing is I've NEVER treated anyone this way, not even him. And I only treat him this way since D-Day 1, which isn't an excuse, but I used to be madly in love with him and would NEVER say those things to him.

I don't ever take my anger out on others that way. Only him, and only since D-Day 1.

So it's not like I have generalized anger issues and can't process them in a healthy way, but yes, with him I started having these issues after D-Day 1.

I do plan to go back to IC, I should never have left. And the move won't be until next summer, so I have time.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 7:55 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]

I think this is something else to explore in IC.

I do need to learn that, but the thing is I've NEVER treated anyone this way, not even him. And I only treat him this way since D-Day 1, which isn't an excuse, but I used to be madly in love with him and would NEVER say those things to him.

I don't ever take my anger out on others that way. Only him, and only since D-Day 1.

So it's not like I have generalized anger issues and can't process them in a healthy way, but yes, with him I started having these issues after D-Day 1.

This is kind of like saying, I only steal from one store, and only because they really deserve it, so I'm not a thief. I'm glad you don't steal indiscriminately from all the stores, but you have been stealing from your husband's store for four years and when the store said, "I can't take this anymore and I'm going to ban you from the store," your response was to steal some more. How would you feel is your husband tried to paint his cheating in a better light by saying, "But hey, I don't cheat in every relationship I've ever been in, just in ours, and just when X happens"?

It's very easy for affairs to turn into a self-perpetuating vicious cycle even after the affair has ended. It takes a lot of hard work to take your husband's unhealthy, abusive choice to have an affair and rebuild something healthy on top of that. "I'm only making unhealthy choices because he made an unhealthy choice first" might be more understandable than "I go around abusing people for sport." But you're still making unhealthy choices and the person you harm most when you do that is yourself.

There's some debate as to whether the WS "gets away with it" when we choose to continue the marriage, and even though some folks say they don't, I think they do. And even worse, we have to let them. Because if we hold onto that need to punish, the nagging insult of injustice, it ends up biting us on the ass. You can't reconcile and punish at the same time. It doesn't work because it doesn't achieve your goals. In R, your goal is a loving, reciprocal, relationship which is satisfying to both partners. It can't work when it's not equal.

It's not an easy thing to let it go. That sense of injustice blazes like the surface of the sun. But it burns BOTH parties when it's let out of the box in the form of punishment.

Definitely something I need to realize and work on. It does feel like injustice and there's no taking it back or erasing it, so I just kept him in punishment mode and kept myself in safe mode.

The two of you are locked into a scenario that is bound for disaster. You are pushing him to see how much he'll take as a litmus test of your value and worth to him. Wouldn't it be better to tell him how you need to be valued in order for you to R?

It seems like you are still in so much pain and that pain has yet to be processed so it is being used to hurt him to make you feel better. It is a paradigm we all know and understand for sure. But hurting him only masks your pain which will only compound the negative energy.

Please get healthy for you. I bet he'll stick around to be there for you but honestly it doesn't matter. He's not healthy either. He chose to lean into someone else when he knows it will destroy his M...likely the same issue that instead of being open and honest he is masking his true feelings. You are both locked in the same dance.

My take is this. Be two healthy people for those beautiful children. Be there for them. Help them see how to relate in the best manner possible. Then see how the two of you feel. Alternatively, separate because the environment is not healthy for either of you.

IC or MC in the picture?

I left IC a while back, he was kind of "graduated" from IC ad they felt he'd worked through his FOO issues, worked through his infidelity, and shown positive growth, they of course said he could still benefit from IC but we moved further away, his schedule changed and it was harder to get to appointments so he ended IC.

It was then recommended that we move on to MC.

We tried and one session in, the therapist told us she was moving out of state.

We can't afford to do a trial separation, and after our big talk and me coming to terms with my own control and and anger issues over the past 4 years, neither of us want to right now. We do want to look back into MC and get back to IC.

It's hard to put yourself back out there and be vulnerable after you've already been crushed by betrayal. We're literally forcing ourselves to behave in a trusting manner with someone who has proved to be duplicitous in the past.

From my perspective, trust is never what it was. It's never naive and innocent again. That said, trust has many aspects. There's trust that your mate will be financially responsible, trust that he'll take care of you if you're sick, trust that he'll care for the children properly, etc. So, I work hard to give genuine trust in areas where it's warranted. But for the rest, I trust in ME. I trust that I will be strong enough to handle whatever comes my way because I've learned to value ME.

Before, I was pretty far down on my own list of priorities, so I make a concerted effort to bump up MY interests. I own my choice to be here, and if it goes sideways again, I might be sad, but I won't be destroyed. I'm not jumping off a cliff without a parachute. The parachute is ME and my hard-won confidence that I'm going to be okay because I'm enough. My choice to be here is a conscious one. It's not foisted upon me by circumstances or any sense of immediacy. I'm here because I chose it with my eyes wide open and I'm where I want to be for now.

There's a saying about R... that we go from victim to volunteer when we choose to stay. And while it sounds harsh, it's not totally inaccurate. Through ownership of my choice to stay, even though I know the risks, I embrace my "volunteer" status. My participation in the process is voluntary. My WH may or may not hold up his end. But I will hold up mine because I said I would, and I will do so until he drops his. My choice. My power. I shake of the shackles of victimization just by making it a conscious one.

I hope that makes sense. It all hinges on recognizing your own power, which is so hard to do when you've been traumatized and had your whole world upended. You might add a copy of Brene Brown's Rising Strong to your reading list. I found her concepts about rewriting our story really helpful, particularly in dealing with smaller, day-to-day disappointments. Her technique makes it easier to manage catastrophic thinking when having a down day.

((hugs))

I would definitely look into MC if you truly want to reconcile and if you think it’s possible for you after this second dday. Healing yourself after a dday is hard. Reconciliation is harder. But punishing your WS is not the answer to a fulfilling marriage. It just isn’t. Both spouses have to make the choice to be all in and it sounds like you never made that choice but expected him to make it.

I was pretty bad for about a year and a half - waiting for my WH to leave and not put up with my BS anymore. I didn’t say hurtful things the way you have - but I did call him a cheater and a liar and tell him I could never forgive him and I would remind him every damn day of what he did.

It’s honestly impressive and worrying at the same time that he stuck by you if what you say is factual. Where were his boundaries? Why was he willing to tolerate that for so long? He really needs to dig into that and figure that out. I don’t believe my WH would have stuck through me abusing him mentally like that. Is your WH codependent? Conflict avoidant? Is that why he chose to go down this route again? It would worry me.

Marriages are a two way street. They need to be mutually satisfying for both parties or there is no marriage. I understand the need after dday to feel like you have the upper hand. I reminded my WH for awhile after dday, with threats of divorce - it was always on the table. But eventually, it needs to be off the table again if you are reconciling and recommitting. I don’t think you are there yet and after this second dday, I don’t think you should be. However, if I were in your shoes and wanting to give my WH a third chance, I would approach things a lot differently this time. Own your behavior. He needs to own his. He needs to figure out why he didn’t leave and chose to go down this road again! That’s not acceptable. It’s not the answer. He needs to explore where that conflict avoidance comes from - FOO issues maybe? And he needs to start overcoming it or there is no hope for reconciliation in my personal opinion.

As for you, there is no controlling another person. Making someone feel terrible for years for their bad choices, does nothing but beat them down. If you see someone actively changing into the person you want them to be - acknowledge it. Maybe read the The Book of Forgiveness - I’m not saying you have to forgive at all. But it may help you deal with your anger and injustice issues. Life is too short to be so mad. We have to learn to accept our choices to stay with someone who has hurt us or leave. Being perpetually mad at that person and/or ourselves gets us nowhere.

(((Howisthisreal))) I hope you take my very long message with the gentlest hug I can offer. If I knew you in person, I’d be saying this over a glass of wine and it would probably come out a lot differently. I only want the best for you, just know that.

It’s honestly impressive and worrying at the same time that he stuck by you if what you say is factual. Where were his boundaries? Why was he willing to tolerate that for so long? He really needs to dig into that and figure that out. I don’t believe my WH would have stuck through me abusing him mentally like that. Is your WH codependent? Conflict avoidant? Is that why he chose to go down this route again? It would worry me.

Don't get me wrong, there were times he did stick up for himself, he didn't just sit there like a sad puppy all these years. There were times he told me he couldn't change the past but that he was working on changing himself and making himself safe for the future and that if we were going to get anywhere I needed to see that, there were times he "fought back" verbally, never to the extent that I did, there were times that he claimed defeat and said he had broken me too much to ever love him again.

We've talked separation and/or D a few times over the years, each time, we'd decide we didn't want that. This last time that he said it sounded serious and it kind of jarred me a little but I didn't change my behavior, and I always seemed to call his bluff.

Every time he stuck up for himself or fought back I'd basically tell him he had no right to.

For the first 3 years, it seems the anger issues were kind of balanced out by the good times, because we would still have good times.

This past year I just put my walls up completely, I guess I was just sick of feeling anything. We kind of just acted friendly, but never touched never hugged, never showed affection, and he craves affection, physical touch/affection is his love language. We both took the quiz a while back at the insistence of our IC's.

I guess he just kept telling himself that he was a piece of shit and deserved it all and I never let him forget it.

And I realize I sound like a horrible, cruel psycho but I wasn't before the first d-day. I let myself go too deep, it was more comforting to stay in the dark feelings, than to be vulnerable and try to be happy.

And thanks, I'll definitely check out that book. Something clicked in me this time, and I realize my actions WILL push him away eventually, and someone else WILL have be interested in him which really isn't something I thought much about before.

He HAS tried, he has changed as a person, he literally did everything I asked of him before. Hell, even my own mother (she knows about the infidelity) has said that I need to cut him some slack and see that he's been trying.

I am finally admitting wrong-doing and I am taking a good, hard, inward look at myself and starting to work on correcting my own actions, instead of dismissing them as justifiable because of what he did to us. And we both plan to return to IC, and possibly MC if we can afford it.

[This message edited by HowIsThisReal at 11:27 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]

PlEASE get back into IC and work on your anger. While it is certainly understandable for a betrayed spouse to feel hurt and angry over being cheated on and betrayed, it doesn't mean it's ok to be abusive and cruel to him. No one deserves that.

Spend time working on your issues and sort out what you really want.