SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Btw..... the anonymous tip came from the kids girlfriend. She felt disgusted by her and his behavior. They broke up after he beat the crap out of her. She told me everything. She spoke to others close to him and got even more info which she told me about. Apparently he was screwing other married women in town as well. A real pos. I talked to his mother. Told her someone’s going to kill him if he keeps this shit up. If I had no kids I would have ended his life I swear

Yes many friends know. Many in town know as well. That’s why we moved

So F ing embarrassing. I’m still pissed at her Lin a way I can not even describe

Ks,

Your ambivalence and emotional pain are normal for someone 9 months out. Your trip to Ukraine probably makes your life even more difficult - if it doesn't now, it will.

The age of the ap doesn't really make a difference - it hurts beyond measure no matter who the ap is.

No one here knows as much about you and your W as you do. What you describe is believable. Usually WSes in your sitch lie about what they did and how often they did it, but some WSes tell the truth.

If your W gets and stays sober, if she resolves the pain she's experienced, she can change from cheater to good partner. If she makes that (massive) change, R is eminently possible if you both agree on the shape of your M.

You need to decide what you want. You can wait and watch both yourself and your W, and eventually you'll make that decision. You can also get the help of a good IC, which will probably get you to a decision more quickly.

There are a lot of ways to think of being betrayed, some healthy, some not. If you go for what you want, it's a lot easier to frame being betrayed in healthy ways.

*****

Your W didn't cheat because of anything you did or didn't do. It's all on her.

You may think you cheated because of her actions. In reality, though, you chose to cheat. You chose to do something that wouldn't fill the hole created by your W's cheating.

There's no way to equalize the score. There's no way to punish your W without hurting yourself, unless you D, and even then you need to D very mindfully for the punishment to be effective.

I strongly recommend that you stop thinking about finding someone else and deal with the real issues:

1) Stay or go - R or D.

2) Feeling you anger, grief, fear, and shame and letting them go.

*****

You can heal from this. You can survive and thrive. But you can't do that unless you let your own pain go and stop adding pain to your burden by bringing other sex partners into your life.

Thank you for the kind words. I know we are all different in how we deal and I say to any and all here with complete honesty. I did not screw other women to get her back. I swear to God. I was crushed. My self worth was gone. I was suicidal. Really. I was desperate. I needed to know I was worth something. I needed to feel desired by women. I feel silly saying this. It’s not me. I’ve always been a super stress big guy mentality and physically. This brought me to my knees

As for cheating on her........ is it cheating if I tell her what I was going to do and the details when she asked me? There was no lies , no deceit, I told the truth and why. She was hurt but I nderstood my motives. So did the therapist!

So why am I talking to ladies now? Being faithful for so long I have no idea what it means to have a connection with another woman. The rest of my life starts now. I want our marriage survive this but I need to know it’s “ the right thing” to save. See, I love her but I don’t know if staying is right. I feel if I experience women on an emotional level it may shed light on me to know what to do. I’m living with the W and kids now. I’m trying to protect the children so that is why I have not left. Yes I know....... it’s wrong. I’m starting to feel that I may need to move out to “find myself” and date other women to “see” what I want and need. The wife knows my desire to possibly move out. She said “ I will wait for you forever” knowing I will see other women to figure my shit out. I’m sorry...... I know what I feel is unusual. It’s how I feel. I asked for non of this. I need to get my shit together. I really have this strong desire to know what other women are like. I’m hoping I will find that the grass is not greener with another. This will drive me back to her. Seeing her deal with my transgressions will prove to me deep in my heart that she does love me, want me. Yes...... I’m damaged goods now I know. I will survive this with or without her. If I do not experience other women on an emotional and physical level, I will forever wonder about it. I feel the need to check this box and move on one way or another

KS,

I think you are correct in that you need to put some distance between the two of you for a bit. Being apart might give you the opportunity to clear your head as to what you want and need from a relAtionship. And there is nothing wrong with coming to the decision that your

Wife having an affair is a dealbreaker for you.

What do the kids know?

Good luck and stay strong.

And as a

FYI, I’m on the South Shore.

IDK ... I assume you expected monogamy from your W and from yourself when you got married. Your W didn't meet that commitment. Neither did you. That probably is forcing you to do some sort of number on yourself.

You've placed all your self-worth on being able to attract a woman. You went to Ukraine - how hard was it to attract a woman? Or were the women you met looking for someone? Did the see the real you, or did they see dollar signs? If you attract someone now, how do you know they aren't just attracted to a meal ticket? How do you know they aren't just looking for a warm dildo?

You've got a hole inside. I certainly understand that. 9 years ago as I write, I was 5 hours from learning my W cheated in a very bad way.

But that's a hole that only you can fill. You're looking for 'external validation,' and that just won't solve your problem. You have to fill the hole up yourself. Then external validation will be supportive.

Right now you're attacking yourself with your self-talk. External validation simply can't overcome that.

Some people, I know, think the M is over when one partner cheats. I simply can't see the emotional or intellectual reasoning for that position. But if that's what you tell yourself, so be it.

Telling your W what you were doing ... it's still a violation of your vows.

But if you really want to recover from the damage done by being betrayed, you need to address and resolve the anger, grief, fear, and shame that's eating you up. Finding someone to fuck simply won't do that ... and it brings complications that makes recovery much more difficult.

For some insight into what you've gotten yourself into, read this: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=509142

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:03 PM, December 22nd (Sunday)]

Ks6691,

Even with your last post is shows that you are not listening.

Please listen...

1) Your wife has been screwing this young stud, no matter what your t level is, he is young and new... She has been screwing him every single time she could until you moved and probably after if she could get away...

2) She is lying about everything... Get it everything...

3) Based on how you are leaning, you need to file for D and move on. While you have no idea what you are doing, and are being completely naïve about all of this, I think your gut is not in denial, but your brain is...

File ASAP, and go live your life.

Sisoon nailed it. Seeking external validation or source when you have and internal wound will only pass your pain onto someone else. Did you tell her before or after the Ukraine trip? Unless you have an open relationship, yes it is cheating. If you want to go and explore to see what other woman are like, file for divorce and go. Also know that if you go the D route, your kids will need at least one stable parent. Relationships take up time and that may be time taken away from the kids. Doesn't sound like you're looking for a fuck n go (Ukraine) but a real relationship, it's not going to solve your problems.

Your wife cheated, supposedly for attention and low self esteem.

You cheated to help repair your wounded ego.

You say she is extremely remorseful for cheating. Are You remorseful for cheating on her?

You betrayed your vows. It's cheating.

If your therapist encouraged it, they need to be fired.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:22 PM, December 22nd (Sunday)]

Thanks for the advice and links.

Yes I cheated back but as I said, there were no lies. I told her where I was going and why. I flew there with intentions. No there was no relationship with these girls. They were one night stands. There lies the problem for me. No connection. At first I was all hung up on her blowing this guy later I wanted to know about connection with him. There really was not much there but she stated she kept going back for the attention

As for her having intercourse..... I know how to make her tell the truth. As I said, her parents died suddenly. She adored her parents. Do, when she was initially denying things, I cane up with something I knew she would not lie about. I told her to swear on her parents souls........ then I asked questions. I saw the wheels and cogs turning. I saw her admit stuff under this duress. Of course I asked her the hardest questions including type of sex, how often, other men etc.... her response was coroberated by a few sources that were in the know

As for our marriage? The seal was broken by her when she cheated on me. I do not recognize our marriage anymore and I told her do. Marriage is a piece of paper to the state..... to be, a marriage is a promise between 2 people. She broke that promise so instead eyes the marriage was gone at that point. Going forward I told her if we make it we will be partners. Marriage is just an invisible line to cross now. I say screw that line! As for them having intercourse..... he lives with his parents. Logistically it would be hard. I do wonder though if he had his own place would she have gone all the way. She swears am she would not but I’m not believing that. That does bother me to think about.

Logistically it would be hard.

If you read infidelity stories, you'll read about people getting busy in trucks all the time.

You've evened the score by 'mad hatting' overseas, you've given it 9 months to think about things.

I think the advice you need to hear is make a decision. You sound quite unhappy. I don't think you've written any nice things about your wife.

Either start working together to build a new marriage (and do your best to forgive her), or divorce her. A year from now do you want to be in this same unhappy place?

Hi Snow....

Yes you are right. I am stuck so to speak. No way don’t want to stay in this limbo and I won’t because I can’t. Hi feel I need to make the right choice this is partly why it’s taking a long time for me. Her past traumas are also weighing heavy on my heart. Still had free will but I have to at least consider how her traumas effected her thought process here. Kids add complexity to this also. I want no regrets one way or the other whether I stay or go. I’m not a fucking door Matt so I guess I need to find out if i was treated as such or did she still care for me but lost her head and just was drunk and stupid

Her not opening up to me also makes me second guess everything. She did not care enough to be honest even after being exposed. Did her anxiety disorder effect her ability to openly speak to me or is that bull shit? These are the questions I’m trying to answer before I. And my final decision

Hey Ks6691,

Betrayed here, and going to be a bit blunt, so feel free to skip my post if you are not up to it.

..... I know what I feel is unusual.

Sorry to burst your bubble on this, but you are not unusual. A lot of BS feel this way, it is just that a lot of BS do not act on it because we know that two wrongs do not make a right.

I asked for non of this. I need to get my shit together.

You are kinda correct on this. You did not ask for your WW to have an A, but you went ahead and went to the Ukraine.... & yes, you have to sort out your shit.

Seeing her deal with my transgressions will prove to me deep in my heart that she does love me, want me.

Errm, short answer no. All you will be doing is damaging any chance of R even more. What you are proposing here is that you hurt her (as she has hurt you) and you want her to swallow the pain, and come back to you. Correct? Ever heard of the saying about 'an eye for an eye'? It makes the whole world blind.

I flew there with intentions. No there was no relationship with these girls. They were one night stands. There lies the problem for me. No connection.

So, in your min d, if your WW had no 'connection' with her AP, just mindless sex, it's all okay?

I told her to swear on her parents souls........

Dude, we have seen many WS swear on many things (childrens lives, grandparents souls, parents lives/souls, bibles/quorans/pentateuchs/etc), and it was later found out that they were not telling the truth. The swearing means nothing, especially on souls or the dead, as there are no repercussions.

her response was coroberated by a few sources that were in the know

You mean by the ones who enabled her affair? How sure are you that what they have told you is the truth?

As for our marriage? The seal was broken by her when she cheated on me. I do not recognize our marriage anymore and I told her do. Marriage is a piece of paper to the state..... to be, a marriage is a promise between 2 people. She broke that promise so instead eyes the marriage was gone at that point. Going forward I told her if we make it we will be partners.

You are not wrong here. To have a successful M, it should not be who is 'dominant', but it should be a partnership. Love, mutual respect, and empathy.

As for them having intercourse..... he lives with his parents. Logistically it would be hard.

Hard, yes, but not impossible. Cheaters are like water, they will find a way. Quick one in the toilets in the pool hall, in vehicles, down an alley, in the bushes..... you get the drift. Your only possible consolation is that alcohol tends to reduce the 'ability' in guys....

I do wonder though if he had his own place would she have gone all the way. She swears am she would not but I’m not believing that.

You got this right. The opportunities would have been richer, and it would have gone to a logical conclusion.

All in all, both yo and your WW have given in to your base desires with little to no thinking about the consequences. It might be a good idea to step back, go to see ICs, and stop lashing out, trying to hurt each other.

I know the pain is crippling, but it does not help yourself on the linger term if you try and dish out that pain to others. The saying of 'a suffering shared, is a suffering halved' does not apply in this instance.

Apparently he was screwing other married women in town as well

You and your WW need to get tested for STD.

Also, if your WW had all those issues since childhood, what makes you think it was the first time? She had those issues during those 19 years of your marriage. We read stories here again and again that one AP over the marriage turns into 2 then 3 then 4.... Swearing means nothing. Crying and big tears means nothing. She is in self preservation mode right now.

This is why, the common advice here is to have the Wayward write a timeline, then a Polygraph, which includes a question about sex with any men during the marriage, other than in the timeline.

[This message edited by ShutterHappy at 3:44 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]

Apparently he was screwing other married women in town as well.

I recall your wife was alone with him in his truck 5 times. I think you should assume they had intercourse (and she will never admit it).

I suggest a polygraph test to stop the lying.

Your WW had a PA. In turn you went and had several PA's - fucking 'girls' in Ukraine, and now you're looking at playing the field some more and fuck a bunch more women just to 'know' if you should R. And your testosterone level matters more than being a father/partner. Meanwhile your WW wants to work on things?

Sounds like you have more issues to sort out than just a WW.

[This message edited by MrCleanSlate at 8:06 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]

You say,

Marriage is just an invisible line to cross now. I say screw that line!

Then you go on to say you have kids, and you wonder how her traumas effect her and you. Previously you said you love her, IIRC.

IOW, your M is not an invisible line to you. IMO, you need to honor the line or cut it with formal D.

But what do you want? That where the D/R decision starts. Assuming you can D or R or continue to gather information (any of which you really can do), what do you want?

*****

BTW, from what you've written, I think the connection between your W and the kid was alcoholic. It was a connection made when they had altered their brains. To match it, you need to get drunk yourself and hook up with the same person a few times that you get drunk together.

It's time to take responsibility for yourself and for your actions. Without doing that, you'll stay stuck and in pain.

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:01 AM, December 23rd (Monday)]

Ks,

It is so easy to get women to sleep with you. There is a whole hookup culture out there. There are services you can pay for. There are drunk people who want the temporary relief of mental pain from sex as you well know. The answer to your question of physical desirability is Yes, you will find somebody to sleep with as you proved in the Ukraine. Now you want to know if you can find someone to build a connection with. That is not an unusual reaction at all. You are looking for a back up, a safety net because you don’t want to end up alone. You are taking this opportunity to have an affair for the same reason that your wife did - to make the hole in your heart go away by being with someone else. I can tell you now there is someone out there who would love to have a connection with youZ it may not be the first woman you date. It may be the 20th, but she is out there. Once you find her, what are you going to do? Tell her that you will choose between her and your wife? You will be bringing her into a situation where there is another woman “waiting for you forever.” Is that how you would want to treat someone you have a connection with? Do you want this mess to be the foundation of your new life? I know because I have gone through a similar mess. I told my husband I am divorcing him, that we were separated, that he is free to see AP1, and I am going sleep with someone else that I have an actual connection with. I told him everything. He even bought me a sweat shirt to go on a date with this new guy. I didn’t think I was cheating because there were no lies on my part. I think he was honest with me about his date with AP1, too. This “progressive” reaction was really two broken people acting without boundaries. Whether you consider what I did cheating or not, the repercussions came.

If I had waited to find my footing instead of lashing out immediately, I would have seen that my marriage was salvageable, that I didn’t REALLY want a divorce even though it felt real at the time. What I wanted was to punish him and to feel validated as a woman.

So my advice is do not drag an innocent woman into your mess. You can only attract or feel attracted to a woman who is at your emotional level anyway. Right now you are an emotional black hole. You will attract another emotional black hole. That is not the way to solve your current problem. If you love your wife, get her help. Get her to address her drinking problem and you into IC. Become a better version of yourselves first and then see if you two can make this marriage work.

Honestly, if there is such a thing as evening a score (there isn’t), you already did it with the girls from Ukraine. She was not emotionally attached to her young drunkard either. You see how sleeping around is not as satisfying as you thought, and it doesn’t solve the hole you feel? So you have nothing to lose by trying another tactic for a few months.

As for embarrassment, look around. Do you know how many people get cheated on? It’s all around us. It has zero to do with your attractiveness, ability to provide, etc. It is she dealing with her own demons. No one can point fingers at you because no marriage is affair proofed or at least encountered temptations. Don’t worry about what others are saying or thinking. They are most likely feeling sympathetic and not judging you.

Just focus on making a decision. If this is a deal breaker - be decisive and don’t hold onto your wife as a back up. If you really can’t decide, it’s okay. Maybe you need more information. Put all your effort into healing yourself and your wife (she has to heal herself). See what life is like with her when she is not drinking, not suffering from anxiety, and you are not as distraught and angry. Then judge whether you want to stay or go.

I am sorry you are in pain.

I know nothing else and feel I need to see if the grass is greener. It may be?

This sums up the problem with all cheaters. Using people as objects to make us happy and feel validated. They shouldn't look for greener grass. They should leave because they deserve to be treated with respect and to be happy. Even if it means leaving and being alone. We should be able to be alone. We should be able to have enough self confidence, esteem, love, and respect to be alone. To jump out of bad situations not just from a bad to a good one where the grass is greener. Green is just fine without someone else there waiting.

Sorry just a thing I have been noticing. Waywards looking for greener grass. Being upset when it isn't or using the fact that the grass isn't greener (affaired down) to prove to their BS that they love and value them most. Like objects. Plan A and plan Bs. It is all bullshit no matter if you are BS or WS. Or madhatters. When you are being treated like shit no matter what the circumstances are (cheating, abuse, etc.) by your so-called partner in life, the grass is always greener alone.

Learn how to be alone and happy. Stop looking for replacements.

Some insight into young stud..he isn't. He is a screw-up. Someone she really doesn't value. She doesn't care about him or how he sees her. She will be whatever with him because in the end she knows he is disposable. Druggie, living with parents....the whole nine yards. His opinion of her deep down and who she is doesn't matter except for making him want her. She most likely has affaired down to him because she can control him. She can seduce him easily. She can use him easily. He doesn't require much work to keep. She can be a KISA if she wants. Or maybe wants the bad-boy to want her. If she is anything like I was with my APs who were both a hot mess. Which unfortunately goes both ways. Hot messes are only able to attract similar hot messes. Both parties and easy and needy. Toxic to toxic. We desperately want the AP to want us and will do anything to get it. If the AP turns us away? So-what on to the next one. Disposable. The ironic things is whose opinion that matters the most is the BS. Yet, we do everything contrary to that. The one we don't want to be embarrassed in front of or turned away by. Whose respect we want more. Yet we do everything to make that firmly happen by risking for an ego boost.

If it has been happening for some time over and over with the same easy man. She has chosen to take you for granted and to take advantage of you because you have let her. Sorry. Not trying to be a dick here. That is grace on your part. If there wasn't madhatter attached to it. For her, she is just using you. A doormat. You deserve to be happy and healthy again. Get rid of the toxicity till you do. Maybe she will do the same when you move on.

She’s lying.

You know when he finishes and you know if you swallow it or not. She’s omitting information. Which is still a lie no matter how you spin it. Get tested for STD’s. Her too.