SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

BTW this camera issue is her convenient excuse to be mad at YOU when YOU should be mad at her.

You did nothing wrong. It’s a logical explanation so I don’t know why she would be mad about it.

But let this be an example of how the cheater finds a convenient excuse to be mad at the betrayed. So typical.

She did not have to leave over this. It could have been resolved the way grown ups resolve things - by TALKING about it.

I hate to say this but this probably only fuels the affair now. In her mind she believes you have now given her a reason to cheat.

I’m sorry for you.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:41 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Yes, I agree with you regarding that. Although I really should have just been open and told her about it knowing she'd react this way. Maybe this is for the best.

to finally just tell her, and start the hard 180

I would not reveal details of what you know or how. Simply tell her...

"You are having an adulterous relationship. I won't be your plan B, and I won't share you with a boyfriend. We both took vows to be in an exclusive, monogamous marriage. You have broken those vows. Tell me everything right now. No more lies, no more minimizations, no more half truths. If you do that, we might have a chance. If you don't, then we should be done."

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:42 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Anotheron3,

In case another poster has not already advised, do not ever disclose the source(s) of your information. Just tell her you know, she knows that what you are telling her is true (she was there, involved), and that your source is irrelevant. Do not reveal more than you have to. Do not reveal any knowledge that could allow her to back-trace to the source.

Once she knows sources, she will delete the source/device/practice and move to another.

Also, consider using one or more voice-activated recorders or "VAR" (others on this site can explain and recommend models/techniques) in places where she uses her phone (such as a bedroom or car). Some go to extremes and clone phones/computers/laptops and install keyloggers. Apps are also available to recover deleted messages on phones. Some do hire a Private Investigator to gather information . That is better than you "stalking", but you should be quite convinced that the extent of your surveillance is justified. I would consider using these more extreme measures only if absolutely necessary and WW is highly deceitful. Note that these measures might be detected and backfire on you, thus dooming hope altogether. You already have the taste of experience wrt to the petcam.

The information you garner from these practices are not going to be used in a court of law. They are for your knowledge only to help you respond to/deal with a shitty situation that you did not instigate. I am not recommending the use of any of the measures, just letting you know what is available, and commonly-used.

Also, never reveal this site. It is your safe place and, finding it, would be a treasure chest for her for her counterintelligence measures.

[This message edited by PassThis at 1:55 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

If she begins telling you the truth then...

1. Immediate NC letter, email and text to the other man and she documents it for you.

2. Immediate IC for each of you with your own IC's -- preferably with a betrayal trauma specialist -- no MC, it's completely wasteful and blameshifts onto (like she's already trying to do).

3. Immediate exposure to her family. No weaving a bullshit narrative about how you "grew apart."

4. Immediately inform the OM's girlfriend or SO.

5. She gives you a detailed written timeline of everything she tells you.

6. She submits to a polygraph to back up veracity of written testimonial, detailed day-by-day accounting of her affair.

7. She reads and gives you a specific written plan for implementing the entire set of recommendations in "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda McDonald.

8.She submits her devices for you to run retrieval software on (Fonelab is best).

9. Make sure she understands up front you will not tolerate minimizations, blameshifting, attempts to rugsweep, gaslighting, DARVO, or any other mind games.

10. Then implement the 180.

If she balks on any of these, she's lying and unremorseful. Tears don't matter (they are just a woman's expression of embarrassment, not remorse).

No sources, got it. I got a taste of that already and she moved to other means.

Also, consider using one or more voice-activated recorders or "VAR" (others on this site can explain and recommend models/techniques) in places where she uses her phone (such as a bedroom or car). Some go to extremes and clone phones/computers/laptops and install keyloggers. Apps are also available to recover deleted messages on phones. Some do hire a Private Investigator to gather information . That is better than you "stalking", but you should be quite convinced that the extent of your surveillance is justified. I would consider using these more extreme measures only if absolutely necessary and WW is highly deceitful. Note that these measures might be detected and backfire on you, thus dooming hope altogether. You already have the taste of experience wrt to the petcam.

I actually bought one on Amazon for work and I think she recently saw it on my order history, which made her go on a hunting spree and she found my petcam. I think it wouldn't be wise to do so at this point as she's on the alert. I appreciate the idea.

If she begins telling you the truth then...

Thanks for all of the instructions. I'll have to practice some of these very soon I'm sure. Lots of great advice here.

I couldn't agree with you more here. And you're right. I know she doesn't want to "hurt me" but she already is, every day.

I know she was telling him to move on, but when he started to date she got mad at him and pulled him back in. I don't want to be "plan B" anymore.

Firstly, how you can know anything about her with any certainty?? Secondly what matters is WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW, not what you think you know. You seem to be living in a world of what you think you know vs. WHAT IS HAPPENING.

As others have mentioned the "Pick Me Dance" is playing with the volume turned up past maximum here.

It's your choice. You cant start living your life NOW and make your decisions based up what's happening or based up on what you think you know about her.

Incidentally, I myself am speaking from the experience of someone who did many things we are recommending to you -- but not all of them, at least not in a timely fashion. As a result, I landed in painful limbo and I'd like to prevent that for any other BH if I can.

Here's what I did right:

1. Instinctually I stopped doing the pick me dance about halfway through her affair. It shook her up.

2. I also implemented the 180, but I did it because I was prepping for her to divorce me, because she had convinced me I had falsely accused her. I got lucky here, bc this also unintentionally shook her up.

3. I placed VARs around and got intel leading to the D-Day 1 confrontation. That confrontation was no nonsense and shock and awe.

4. I demanded NC and got it.

5. I exposed immediately to HER family, not to mine (that's important if you think want to stay together). To this day my family doesn't know.

6. While the affair was ongoing, with the 180 I had already started doing Stoppani's size program. I saw incredible results and it set my WW off kilter. I didn't have a bad physique before. I ended up with a physique of a man half my age and have maintained meven over the past several years. Off the charts attention from other women. This helps a lot bc your wife will know you have plenty of options. The iron temple is also a stress reliever like no other for men.

What I did wrong:

1. I didn't get access to her phone to download deleted texts.

2. I didn't get a written detailed timeline right away.

3. I didn't get a polygraph (until 3 years later).

4. I naively agreed to marital counseling.

5. I allowed rugsweeping. But I also did not go weak in the face of her tears and over the course of three years have chipped away at a sense of entitlement and blameshifting. It never should have taken that long, and if I'd take other active steps I could have prevented that.

6. I failed to contact the OBS right away, and not until a year later bc I allowed my MIL to convince me the OBS would be vindictive if she knew - thus, I allowed the OM to spin whatever narrative to his own wife he wanted.

7. I asked her to read "How to Help..." within the first six months. Should have been sooner.

I actually bought one on Amazon for work and I think she recently saw it on my order history, which made her go on a hunting spree and she found my petcam. I think it wouldn't be wise to do so at this point as she's on the alert. I appreciate the idea.

OK your situation might be different. Just realize this is one of your best (and only) methods for getting active and accurate intel.

Women are good at burying information. All too often, female friends will also "empower" and support their infidelity.

They will take it to the grave if they can (and surveys confirm this -- and they probably have been taking it to the grave for millennia; it's just that now it's harder to conceal affairs, which is why women are suddenly "at parity" with men for infidelity, when they probably always have been).

A VAR will cut through all the white noise.

I exposed immediately to HER family, not to mine (that's important if you think want to stay together). To this day my family doesn't know.

Is this a really a good idea? I feel like it would put her over the edge. I did plan on doing this, but I figured a means to inform her I'll have to let them know what went wrong and I will not be to blame. She seems to be very concerned about appearances and what they'll think of her. I suspect the reason she hasn't asked for a D is because of this.

Firstly, how you can know anything about her with any certainty?? Secondly what matters is WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW, not what you think you know. You seem to be living in a world of what you think you know vs. WHAT IS HAPPENING.

I know I need to get out of this mindset. I'm still in the shock of everything perhaps.

[This message edited by Anotheron3 at 2:20 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Is this a really a good idea? I feel like it would put her over the edge.

I'm already sensing balking. You do what you need to for you. There's a saying here, "take what is useful, leave the rest."

However, I'm giving you SOP here. Most situations are not that different or unique. We see the same mistakes and pitfalls time after time.

You are not responsible for her shitty choices, and your in-laws deserve to know the real score, not whatever bullshit narrative she is feeding them. Nota bene, this isn't to get your in-laws on your "side." This is their baby, so don't expect them to do anything other than circle the wagons around her.

No, that's not what this is for. The purpose here is to expose the horrid nature of her affair to the light of day, where it will likely perish in that light -- like a disinfectant. Exposure can be calibrated to different situations. But exposing to her parents is almost near universal as a recommendation.

If you're afraid this puts her over the edge, you're already done.

I didn't care whether this put my wife "over the edge" - I wanted to save my marriage, but I also instinctually knew it would be best for the truth to be out there. Truth and reconciliation must go hand in hand. I didn't have anyone guiding me on the process, and as I said I made mistakes. But telling my MIL was not one of them.

EDIT PS: Among my mistakes, as I noted, was not moving forward with a written timeline and polygraph immediately, as well as not getting access to her phone. What this did was allow her to bury information and not be as forthcoming as she should have been. As a result, I ended up in painful limbo and now "I love her, but I'm not in love with her" and it's because she lied too much. I have a thread in reconciliation where I'm actively talking about divorcing her. This is tragic because I could be in a different place. I want different for you. The truth must come out.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:25 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

I'm already sensing balking.

I apologize for making it seem that way. This is all very new to me and am trying to form a plan that will hopefully end in an R and not a D. I really do appreciate the advice as it has been eyeopening. It's always good to hear what works and what didn't for people!

I figured a means to inform her I'll have to let them know what went wrong and I will not be to blame

You can be very matter of fact about it. No need to be vindictive. Consider something like this:

"She's having an adulterous affair in violation of the sanctity of our marriage and she has repeatedly lied about it and tried to shift responsibility for her poor moral choices onto me. I won't share her with another man, and I won't allow absurd blameshifting or deceptive rationalizations avoiding responsibility. I'd like to try to consider reconciling, but that's a long and painful road that requires both spouses to be all in. And for that to even be remotely considered, I need her to be completely truthful and genuinely remorseful. I've seen neither from her."

"She's having an adulterous affair in violation of the sanctity of our marriage and she has repeatedly lied about it and tried to shift responsibility for her poor moral choices onto me. I won't share her with another man, and I won't allow absurd blameshifting or deceptive rationalizations avoiding responsibility. I'd like to try to consider reconciling, but that's a long and painful road that requires both spouses to be all in. And for that to even be remotely considered, I need her to be completely truthful and genuinely remorseful. I've seen neither from her."

This is a great suggestion! I've never really been great with words like this. Thanks!

will hopefully end in an R and not a D

Just be careful here. The true hope is to be out on infidelity and happy with yourself. If that is with your WW then so be it. If not then find your happiness within yourself and be free of infidelity. The choice here is to be free of this pain. You should really think of it in those terms. You don't want to accept less than what you deserve just to reconcile.

Just be careful here. The true hope is to be out on infidelity and happy with yourself. If that is with your WW then so be it. If not then find your happiness within yourself and be free of infidelity. The choice here is to be free of this pain. You should really think of it in those terms. You don't want to accept less than what you deserve just to reconcile.

This is a very interesting take on this that I haven't even thought of. You're right. Thanks for this.

Thumos you have a PM.

It's only in the movies that the hero (under stress) says all the right words. Don't hesitate to right down some important talking points to guide you.

Even consider writing her a letter in order to get the right words - and for her to relax and comprehend what you say.

The biggest risk is you not responding decisively enough - or if she senses you won't divorce her. In order for her to take you seriously she needs to believe that you are ready to D now. Mr nice and/or patient guy finishes last.

Although it is not intuitive, the most successful actions in response to infidelity (i.e., strategy to get you out of infidelity) is the same whether you currently want to R or D.

It's only in the movies that the hero (under stress) says all the right words. Don't hesitate to right down some important talking points to guide you.

Even consider writing her a letter in order to get the right words - and for her to relax and comprehend what you say.

The biggest risk is you not responding decisively enough - or if she senses you won't divorce her. In order for her to take you seriously she needs to believe that you are ready to D now. Mr nice and/or patient guy finishes last.

Definitely excellent points to take into consideration. I have written her letters in the past and she receives those better than me talking to her. It also helps me from getting sidetracked from any distractions she throws my way. Thanks!

[This message edited by Anotheron3 at 5:39 PM, January 14th (Tuesday)]

Listen you have allowed your WW to date OM right in front of you and all you've been doing is the "pick me dance" which NEVER works, plus this is most likely a PA, adults involved in an A who are in close proximity every day don't just hold hands for that long, she's even been to his house, you should know better, this isn't a court of law where you need a video of her committing the act, keep in mind a PA also involves kissing and other stuff.

If there's a chance to R the first thing that needs to happen is NC, she needs to end her A for that to happen and nothing kills an A faster than FULL EXPOSURE with ALL family and close friends and of course without warning for shock and awe, if that "pushes her over the edge" well that means she was already gone, but honestly your WW is not even remorseful and is still interested in OM and seeing him every day at work, you should simply file for D and have her served at work without warning, if full exposure and D papers don't shock her back to reality then nothing will, D takes a long time and can be stopped if she comes around, otherwise just let D run its course and get out of infidelity, don't forget to get tested for STDs (some may be transmitted via saliva).

Keep posting frequently, this is a crucial moment and the collective wisdom of SI may help you go through this difficult time, we've seen cases like yours play out literally THOUSANDS of times here and other forums.