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I'm now wondering whether I should email his wife very late tonight or 6am tomorrow. She can therefore grab his phone before he goes to work. I don't need to see more than I have, whereas she will probably want to...

I'm trying to protect the kids at both ends in this so not speaking to my wife today.

Problem with this plan are:
- is if she checks his phone first thing tomorrow morning then they have an almighty argument with kids there
- chances are he messages my wife before I speak to her, meaning I lose control of the situation....

[This message edited by AB1978 at 5:32 PM, Sunday, September 14th]

What’s your goal with the evidence?

A very common mistake we tend to make when we discover infidelity is having a need to prove it to everyone else. That seldom (if ever) is really necessary. It’s only in the now-rare instance where infidelity might impact divorce, or a pre- or postnup stipulates infidelity or something like that. For most situations the proof only needs to meet one criterion: YOU need to be convinced.

Like... If all you had was a text with a smiley face, strawberry and sweat-droplets emoji she could possibly convince you that she didn’t know the hidden symbology of emoji’s. That she didn’t realize that in some sub-culture the strawberry represents female genitalia and sweat-drops ejaculation. If this was all you had then yes – be suspicious but get more evidence. You have more evidence... the chats you shared with us is a lot more than misunderstanding. Unless you have a reason to think her monthly "fix" is some interesting historical debate about Henry’s wives then you can safely assume it’s about sex.

So that’s the only question that needs answering: Are you certain she’s having an affair?
Could she explain away that the monthly fix is a meeting over a historical debate and that the body-reference is about great minds thinking alike?
If not - then you don’t have to prove it to her or let her know how you know. For all you care it might even be your advantage to lie to her about it: I was told by a friend who saw you or something like that, or even it doesn’t matter how I know – I KNOW.

She refuses – she has a one-time-offer of handing over her phone right now and opening the chat.

I think a major mistake we tend to make on d-day is trying to create a scenario that we control. Like laying out the conditions the WS has to meet. This might sound contrary to my suggestion above that might sound controlling but the big difference is that what you control is yourself and how you act and react. You are in essence accepting the fact she’s having an affair, the fact that you don’t want to share your wife and the fact that unchanged the only logical outcome is a separation and divorce.
The original stance is that she is free to choose what she does. But her freedom is relatively limited. She can decide that this marriage is over – be it to chase OM or she seeing the affair as an indication the marriage is dead. She is totally free to decide on that path. If she does, you simply carry on along your path.
Instead of you monitoring if the affair is ongoing, she needs to convince you that it’s over. Instead of her thinking she’s a prisoner, she is totally free to do what she wants, only if she wants the marriage she needs to meet your conditions.

She can also suggest things like this wasn’t an affair but to make you happy she will stop contacting OM, or that she will end the affair after meeting OM for closure, or the affair is over so you don’t need to know her agenda, access her media and all that... You are free to accept what you decide to accept, but our recommendation would be to stick to your guns and until all conditions are met, you simply assume the affair is ongoing. While it’s ongoing (real or assumed) you plod steadily onwards with the termination of the marriage.

It's a long process and doesn’t necessarily start with filing. You can start by gathering relevant info on finances and commitments. Start splitting joint debt. Separate accounts. Let stakeholders know. Canceling future family plans. Getting the house valued. Learning the process and maybe even deciding on a route (contested, mediation, one solicitor or two...). This can take some weeks, and if she hasn’t met your conditions within 2-3 weeks I guarantee you will feel better about the next steps.

If however she agrees and meets your conditions... You have the liberty to press pause for a couple of weeks and then reevaluating the situation. If she has kept NC -> you might feel more positive, if she has opened her media to you -> positive. If she has arranged IC – positive. Each positive step might make you feel more at ease at stepping off the accelerator towards divorce.

One thing I find key to a marriage and that is the simple fact that the ONLY reason you are married is because you want to. Same applies to her. The mortgage, the kids, the vehicles, the overdraft, the planned holiday in Florida... some and all might be good reasons to work on the marriage but none are a good reason to remain married. Once you realize how delicate the marriage really is... that is when both you and she start treating it with the respect it deserves. Once she realizes that YOU have options and YOU have a choice as to if you want this marriage or not she starts threating it with the respect it deserves. I compare this to carrying a solid marble egg over an empty road. You would simply slip it in your pocket and cross. If you had a precious egg and the road was busy with traffic you would take more care. She needs to realize the marriage is delicate and requires care.

How would you lose control of the situation?
What control is it you wish to have?

The email to OW should be something like:

My name is AB1978. I am sorry to tell you this but believe you have a right to know. Your husband and my wife are having an affair. Her name is xxxxxxxx. If you look up "name on app" on your husband’s WhatsApp you will see texts confirming the relationship.
If you want further information you can reply to this message. I would appreciate acknowledgement that you have received and read this.

That’s about it.
It’s not your role to provide proof or evidence. It’s not your role to convince her.

Imagine this scenario: Someone sent you an email like above about your wife. Would you ignore it? I’m guessing that if it was anonymous then maybe, but seeing as there is a name and a possibility to reply then AT THE VERY LEAST you would ask your wife.
If she was having an affair and was asked... How would she respond? I guess by minimizing and convincing you that OM is just a friend and his wife a nutcase. That’s actually OK... It’s not the purpose of this exposure to convince the OMW. The goal is for the OM to KNOW that the affair is in the open and that his very best bet is to convince his wife that he’s innocent and/or focused on the marriage. The goal is to have the OM dump your wife.

Don’t overthink. I would send it right now and let the chips fall where they fall.

AB,

I never post, mostly just lurk around, but I wanted to jump in here to offer some perspective.

It sounds as if you're expecting your wife to have an A-Ha! moment when you confront her about the affair. I can tell you from experience that isn't how it goes. She's going to go straight into self-protection mode.

You're going to be gaslit, told you're over analyzing everything and that she can explain things. That wanting her monthly fix and bodies together? That only meant meeting up for coffee together at the same cafe.

I agree with what's been said. Reveal nothing at first, ask for her phone and pull up Whatsapp and have her unlock the chat. If she refuses to hand her phone over or refuses to unlock your chat you have her answer.

You can choose to reveal everything you know so far or reveal as little as possible. I recommend revealing as little knowledge as possible as it helps prevent her from framing her answers around everything you know, and makes it easier for you to pick out the lies.

This isn't the woman you thought you knew as your wife, you can't confront thinking of her as your loving wife who has the best interests of your marriage or you in mind, because she has shown she doesn't. Don't expect her to see the light and be on your side.

AB1978,

If you’re hoping to stay with her, either for yourself or the kids, number 4 is not the answer.

It may fizzle out, but it might not.

And even if it does fizzle out, whatever happens between now and then may make staying together impossible, for one or both of you.

And while I appreciate your desire not to worsen her depression, she’s going to know something’s wrong, and not knowing what it is might be worse than knowing.

Best wishes.

Hi Bigger

Thanks for takin the time to reply.

Regarding the evidence question in your first reply, I don't have a goal - I have seen enough hence so not intending to ask her to see the chat. At that point in the conversation, she could of course deny it but then I ask to see the chat, which completely calls her bluff and we move to the next part of the conversation. The fact that someone has a locked chat tells you something anyway.

The 'stick to your guns' part in the middle I agree with - cutting off the other guy and agreeing to counselling. I'd like to think that she agrees to those.

Regarding the evidence question in your second, my email which I've drafted for the OS is along the lines which you say. However one thing which I have read on this site is that often in tis situation the OS won't believe it. And similarly, other people advice (and I think the FAQs does too) to gather all the evidence you can. For this email and call to her, I'm not really intending to do more than inform her and leave it with her. I wouldnt mind giving her the chance to act before he wipes his phones, however the NO Contact email which I hope my wife will send can easily be sent to her as proof.

Thanks for the closing line in your second message; I'll think it over.

[This message edited by AB1978 at 8:54 AM, Tuesday, September 16th]

Hi FormerPeoplePerson

Thanks and I agree. Since writing that I've ruled out numbers 1 and 4 and preparing for the direct course. The risk with fizzle out is that it takes a while and it churns me up inside. So I've moved on with that, and with 1, everyone guides on here to tell the OS directly rather than anonymously so I'm planning to do that. I was planning for that straight after I've spoken with my wife tomorrow morning when the kids have gone to school but considering now whether I do this today.

Thanks for the reply.

[This message edited by AB1978 at 8:55 AM, Tuesday, September 16th]

Hi WisenItUp

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I guess I dont have a dosier of evidence, though I have enough. And the WhatsApp messages are pretty damning so if she denies it then I ask her to see the full chat, at which point she will obviously know she's been rumbled.

Really dreading this conversation. The reason for getting straight to the point with the evidence is to minimise the emotion which invades the conversation. I'd like to control the flow of the conversation so saying that I know what is going on immediately, helps me with that.

I guess I am, perhaps naively, expecting her to opt for option 1 and cutting the other guy off. After that, as others have said and as the FAQS say, it then comes down to actions - remorse etc.

[This message edited by AB1978 at 8:55 AM, Tuesday, September 16th]

What do YOU want to do, AB? Stop being noble and thinking about everyone else - what do YOU want out of this. You are the injured party here and I think you're too quick to blame this on depression. Believe me, I know depression. I'm not running around with some guy because of depression. This may also have started before her obvious depression did - you don't know the history of this. You also don't know if she's cheated on you before. You may be seeing a side of her you simply didn't know existed before - that happens. Once you find out something, that doesn't mean you know everything - maybe you just know the little bit you've seen. So to me, the question is WHAT DO YOU WANT OUT OF THIS? How do YOU feel? I think you're putting yourself as the last person in this mix and to me....you should be the first.

Depression is very common after achieving some major life events....it might even be expected. Once you've hit your heights, accomplished your goal, what's left, what's next? That's something we all have to figure out, what gives meaning to one's life. She has to figure that out herself openly. If she were really treating you as a spouse, she'd be talking to YOU about it. She's not going to find it with this other guy. She may do that anyway, depressed or not - how would you know?

If this were me, I'd collect as much evidence as I can right now (because if you don't she's only gonna lie about it anyway), use the phone or computer if you can get access, get screenshots. If you can afford a PI - I'd at least talk to one and maybe set up some surveillance as he or she recommends. I strongly believe PIs are WORTH IT because they can collect the evidence that makes it real in our minds and it beats the gaslighting right down. You can also use it in court or for settlements as well, so I think it's always money well spent. Evidence is ALWAYS worth it.....because they lie and gaslight. We need to be sure in our own minds - it's good to have a professional who has seen it all, KNOW along with us. It validates us. I would also talk to a lawyer about divorce and what it would look like for you so you know practically what you are dealing with. You need to KNOW. Always get the best you can with your resources. Then maybe talk to an IC for yourself. I would largely avoid marriage counseling because they almost always want to spackle over the marriage. It's a win for them.

Once you get enough evidence that you can counter the inevitable lies and gaslighting, then I would both tell the AP's wife - and I'd just try to contact her directly and tell her. She has a right to know and who knows what else he might be exposing HER to. Also, you need to get an STI test too. Then I would confront your wife with the evidence. Be prepared for any kind of reaction, anger, denial, crying, hysteria, whatever, but I think you have to bring this out into the open at some point. Don't worry about the "depression". Part of the depression may be living a lie - I think honesty is a good first step for getting out of depression. If she threatens to hurt herself or others, call the police/emts. It's their job to handle people in that state, they know what to do.

It's not your job to raise her or heal her, she's an adult. Maybe you'll want to help once you have an open and honest position about the state of your marriage....maybe you'll want a divorce. I would want a divorce personally, but that's me. Whatever you want is okay, as long as it's what you genuinely want FOR YOURSELF and not because you're sacrificing yourself for her or other people. Get an STI test, talk to a lawyer, collect evidence, maybe get a PI (I really recommend this because it will take a lot off you and they are pros), and get an IC if you can. Do what is best for you and try to decide if you really want to stay with this person. Would you marry this person again knowing what you do now? Maybe you would. But don't just do things for other people. Take care of yourself, physically and mentally. YOU AND YOUR KIDS AND THE AP'S FAMILY ARE THE INJURED PARTIES HERE - NOT HER.

I’m sorry you are in this dilemma. For many of us we want to protect our kids, reconcile with our cheating spouse AND have the affair end at that instant (known as discovery day or Dday).

But it rarely happens that way.

As others have mentioned, you need to be prepared for the cheater to:
Lie
Gaslight you
Call you crazy
Deny any evidence or hide the proof you saw
Blame you (the betrayed spouse)
Threaten you (as in you will never see your kids again or I’ll take all your $ if you try find me)

Here’s a bit of advice. You do not need this to be a trial or something out of a movie. My H tried that game and lost instantly. I told him I knew the affair didn’t end. I told him 3 things I knew. He denied it and told me I was mistaken.

I turned around and left the room. There was no point in discussing anything with a liar.

I’m suggesting if your wife suddenly starts down that path — you tell her (calmly) that you were expecting her to be upfront with you and have a conversation about it that is based in truth and honesty. However since she chooses to lie, the conversation stops here.

Read up on the 180. You may have to start down that path to protect yourself from further emotional hits. Your wife may become someone you no longer recognize.

If you are prepared for it, you can mitigate the impact. I was unprepared and initially I crumbled like a house of cards. A few months later I had enough of the lying, gaslighting, cheating and disrespect that I did the hard 180 and stopped trying to Reconcile with a continuing liar and cheater.

I hope this helps you. Avoid a shouting match. Leave the room if necessary. Shut down her attempt to control the situation.

I suggest not having the conversation when the kids are home. This way if she gets irrational the kids don’t witness it.

OK, so first step taken. I've emailed his wife. I'm probably 90% certain its the right woman but hopefully she can check his WhatsApp before he leaves for work tomorrow (its 830pm here).

I'll speak with my wife tomorrow once the kids have left (unless of course, events unfold this evening with the other party and a message comes in to my wife...)

Wish me luck!

BondJaneBond

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I want what the next poster suggested. She realises that she's been ****ing stupid, cuts off contact, is truly sorry, takes up counselling and then things improve.

I don't know the probability of that. She's in a better place today mentally than she has been for the last week which should improve the chances of her realising her errors. I think things flow from there really.

Its hard to say how this evolves. The last 48 hours have been a rollercoaster but pleased that I didnt react immediately as its helped get my thoughts in-line.

Also appreciate everyone's responses in the last 48 hours. As someone said, its a club which no-one would want to join but great that people are supporting each other and offering advice.

Let's see what happens tomorrow....

[This message edited by AB1978 at 8:55 AM, Tuesday, September 16th]

AB, one of the hallmarks of depression is the need to find surcease. Two friends of mine call it a black hole with no daylight. Often they reach for drugs, and sometimes the secrets, sneaking around, texts, WhatsApp etc get enough of the the right hormones to push the depression down. Of course euphoria does not last. This behavior sounds like her chasing that high to get to daylight.
A psychologist told me that moods go from 1 to 10. One being suicidal and ten is euphoria. Most of us live with 6, 7 and occasionally 8. Vacations give us tens. A new car, new job, new love does it but those feelings quickly leave. Whatever default mood we usually have is where we return to.

You wife sounds like she needs a complete work up to see about drugs for mood enhancement. I still think middle aged women need their hormones check.
I also think you do not need to be her baby sitter. She is capable of asking doctors for help.

Hi Cooley

Yes, your description of depression is a good one and I've seen that with my wife over the last 15-20 years. And I agree, I think she's done this to get a high/escape etc.

re hormones, I'm a bit out of my depth by trust your guidance. I probably need to read up on that or she needs to.

She takes her medications every morning; perhaps they need checking too.

She's capable of asking for help, but sometimes if want to help someone close, then you guide them in the right direction. I don't see that that is too wrong but I guess we're all different.

Thanks

[This message edited by AB1978 at 8:55 AM, Tuesday, September 16th]

Welcome to SI, I want to tell you from my own experience that the advice might not make sense or seem very counter productive, ask me how I know. The reality is she has done this to you and no amount of excuses or justifacations will make it better. You have to take the lead on this and hold her accountable, you have seen the evidence and anything other than "yes its true and I will do whatever it takes to make it right" will not be unacceptable. This is not a time for being nice or negotiating, she has blown your life up.

You run this show now.

This is just a question…could she be bipolar? Victims go from manic to nearly suicidal. It is a true mental illness. If hers is depression without the spiral it is not a mental illness but a mood "illness".

I do not push HRT. I do think hormonal changes in a woman already suffering from depression needs to be seen by a oby/gyn. Sometimes a simple change in medication makes a difference.

Came back to stress she is a grown woman and knows she is hurting you. There is no excuse for it.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 11:33 PM, Sunday, September 14th]

Regarding finding her info it’s usually pretty easy. First start with knowns. Gather anything known to man on him. Use traditional tools but thinks like Grok DeepSearch can help. Only use socials when you have exhausted your other searches. Marriage records, real estate, etc.

When it comes to socials it’s best to start with his family members assuming there are no dead giveaways. A lot of times parents will tag their daughter in laws in pics and stuff. Just have a few beers and play super curious. Have a notepad handy, you’ll want a place to draw connections and list where known info is. It’ll start getting confusing quickly.

Obituaries are also key. Souses are almost always listed.

So I've had the conversation. Hardest thing I've ever had to do by about 10000000x

In summary:

- she immediately apologised. No denial, which was helpful

- she said she wasnt sure whether she still loved me, and whether our marriage is what it was

- she wasnt sure what she felt for the other guy

- I asked at one point whether it was a cry for help given her mental state. She said it might have been

- Conselling: I asked a few times and she became increasingly open to it but still not saying yes definitively. I think she will eventually go and am trying to arrange 3 - one for me, one for her and a couples one

- I said about speking to her parents or sis. She said she wouldnt and admitted that was because she knows they would tell her she's being a fool and should be with me

- she said that she was likely to be emotionally volatile in the coming days

- agreed priority was the kids

- she said that she was very close to moving out last week, and if she did, she'd leave me in the house with the kids but suggested she's need a spousal allowance (which is fair). She said she'd live in a different (less nice) town and her ask was reasonable in terms of £. She asked whether we could afford that amount and asked me to confirm it later. Also briefly mentioned asset split. For me, her saying that she's leave me with the kids is a big win as it takes some of the downside out of what might result. I'd hate to be living elsewhere from them

- we agreed no change of bedroom and to try to work through things.

- I pushed 3 or 4 times on stopping contact with the other guy. In the end she said yes (I think) but will double check this later. I said that if she wanted to see him after moving out then fine, but whilst we're working things through, it wasnt right. She said she would do this. I will push on it again later when I tell her about her £ question (i.e. I've come back to you on your ask, have you done so on mine).

- she said that she knew whta my end goal was, so I said that I didnt want to be with a wife who didnt love me so if after the 'working it through' phase that was where she was, then I could make peace with her leaving.

About 30 mins later, she came by my office and asked if we could go out for a dog walk. Held hands all way around (30-40 mins) - didnt speak of 'us' but general other things. Very nice chat. Said she ordered a new kettle which we had said we needed ysterday, which was odd. When back home, she quietened up again and wondered off.

When she's been depressed before, she's sometimes needed to get horrendously low before she can recover. I think this was part of the first convo, and now she's walking back up a little.

Since then, she's come to me a couple times for hugs - as much both our benefits

No response from my email to the other guy's wife yet. If I got the wrong person, I assume a reply would have come quickly.

I feel emotionally drained but in a bit of a better place. I called a friend before and spend half the time crying. I cried a bit in front of my wife, which I know isnt good, but not much I can do about that.

So I feel we've moved forward. Issue out in the open. Let's see what the coming days bring

PS I know people will say some of teh above isn't textbook and she's coming across as the victim but I am where I am. If it ends up with her stopping seeing him, and us trying to work things through then I dont care

[This message edited by AB1978 at 2:49 PM, Monday, September 15th]

She's now just agreed to seeing a counseller and emailing one now, which is great

Gently...
There are positives in your story but...

Right now you left her with the controls. SHE thinks she has the power to decide if the marriage is over or not, SHE has the power to decide if she’s in contact with OM or not. She even seems to think she has adequate knowledge of UK divorce law and can dictate the terms for your mutual future.
This leaves you wondering what she might decide and how you are going to manage the house plus her rent in Shadyville.

Had you followed my suggestion then her answer would have told you that she has chosen the affair over the marriage. That is probably what 80% do when given the option I presented. At least for the first 24 hours.
After that – when they realize that YOU the BS aren’t waiting around for them to decide if they want the marriage or not. In some ways marriage can be compared to parachute jumping: Once out of the plane you can’t really get back in until you have landed. You can’t really opt in and out of marriage on a whim. You are either married or not.

I’m going to encourage you to do a couple of things:
Get a realistic fact-based view on what a divorce would really be like.
Tell her that after some contemplation you have realized that trying to work things out while she is not committed to NC with OM is like going to an AA meeting with a crate of beer. It’s not going to work. You DO NOT SHARE YOUR WIFE.
That unless she commitst to accountable NC and to the marriage you are simply assuming the marriage is over.