SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Apologies if this is thread jacking…

Please don’t take this the wrong way (though I realize this may read as harsh), but while it’s clear you’re attempting to help, this feels like unsolicited advice. The1stWife hasn't requested a critique of her relationship and seems quite satisfied with her stance.

That’s fair. It just seems to me that she hardly ever has anything positive to say about her H or their marriage, while also having "happily reconciled" in their signature line. It pains me to think that someone might actually be really unhappy in their marriage but isn’t willing to admit it, while also advising others who are in a very fragile, impressionable state and choosing between D and R. If I was a BW reading her words and thought that I have to be this person who fights for power and respect in the relationship constantly, and can’t ever lose an argument if I want those things, I’d D and never marry again, because that sounds exhausting and totally not worth it. But that isn’t the way a marriage is supposed to be, and I was aiming to be the counter voice.

There is also a bit of a "glass houses" element here. You’ve described how you and your partner argue, and it could be interpreted that your husband has historically "backed down" (as The1stWife might put it) too much…

Yes, he has. And I am encouraging him to stand up for himself more, because I don’t want that dynamic in my own marriage. I want to be with someone who respects himself and is my equal, not someone who allows himself to be abused or taken advantage of, or ordered around. And after my infidelity, it’s clear to me that I need someone with strong boundaries to help prevent me from doing that to him. That’s why we’re working on it together. I am open to constructive criticism, btw— the house is not glass, and my intention is not to throw stones.

…Exit affairs will be unaffected but if everyone who ever considered cheating knew for a fact they would get divorced and lose half their assets upon discovery, I'm certain we'd see a solid reduction in infidelity.

I don’t disagree at all, though I would add that there would still be a percentage of the unfaithful population who believes they won’t get caught, as I tried, unsuccessfully, to convince myself.

After all, you wrote that you'd bet even if you were caught, you didn’t think your husband would have divorced you. I can say with absolute clarity that my current (non-wayward) partner would not be under that same illusion.

I’m glad for you. I think I have finally pushed my H to have that boundary in place for himself, and though I deeply regret the means, I feel glad for him, too. Certainly if I ever did something this horrible to him again and he didn’t leave me, I would see myself out of the marriage, because it would be obvious to me that I have no control over myself, and I can’t allow myself to keep hurting him like that. If he won’t maintain his boundary, I will do it for him, because I love him and he deserves better.

who still misses contact with their AP

I don’t actually miss that. I was feeling suicidal and just wishing for someone, anyone, I could talk to about it who would understand and wouldn’t have me committed. xAP is blocked and he will remain that way without any regret.

Many Waywards see an inch and take a mile; it isn't until they encounter a firm boundary that they understand they won't get away with their behavior. This is how I interpret The1stWife’s actions and would recommend the same to your partner.

I understand why a BS might impose limits on the movements of a WS who has recently shown she or he cannot be trusted, and I think that’s fair while they rebuild that trust. But 1st Wife is 12 years out and still telling him where and when he can or cannot go places, like a parent. Assuming he hasn’t cheated again any time recently, she’s still treating him like a wayward, instead of a reformed wayward. Has the trust actually been regained? And again, who would be happy in a marriage where you have to police your spouse for the rest of your lives together? Helping them to change when they respect you and want to change is one thing. Having to put policies in place and always be in control so that they can’t disrespect you out of fear of being left is another.

I don’t actually miss that. I was feeling suicidal and just wishing for someone, anyone, I could talk to about it who would understand and wouldn’t have me committed. xAP is blocked and he will remain that way without any regret.

Just remember that even anonymous here there is many 'someone, anyone' who know what you are going through deeply and are open to talk with you about.

@GotTheMorbs

I want to start by ensuring this doesn’t come across as nasty or mean-spirited. If it does, I apologize, and please feel free to tell me to watch my tone.

I think much of your response is fair, so I’ll focus specifically on these two sections:

That’s fair. It just seems to me that she hardly ever has anything positive to say about her H or their marriage, while also having "happily reconciled" in their signature line. It pains me to think that someone might actually be really unhappy in their marriage but isn’t willing to admit it, while also advising others who are in a very fragile, impressionable state and choosing between D and R. If I was a BW reading her words and thought that I have to be this person who fights for power and respect in the relationship constantly, and can’t ever lose an argument if I want those things, I’d D and never marry again, because that sounds exhausting and totally not worth it. But that isn’t the way a marriage is supposed to be, and I was aiming to be the counter voice.

You are entirely entitled to that interpretation. However, it is possible for someone to claim they are "happily reconciled" while still having significant gripes about behavior they feel they must keep in check; both can be true simultaneously. If a new Betrayed Spouse (BS) reads about her experiences and decides they would rather divorce, that is a valid choice based on the reality she is presenting.

I understand why a BS might impose limits on the movements of a WS who has recently shown she or he cannot be trusted, and I think that’s fair while they rebuild that trust. But 1st Wife is 12 years out and still telling him where and when he can or cannot go places, like a parent. Assuming he hasn’t cheated again any time recently, she’s still treating him like a wayward, instead of a reformed wayward. Has the trust actually been regained? And again, who would be happy in a marriage where you have to police your spouse for the rest of your lives together? Helping them to change when they respect you and want to change is one thing. Having to put policies in place and always be in control so that they can’t disrespect you out of fear of being left is another.

I think your point here is largely fair, but it depends on whether one believes in the concept of a "reformed" or "former" wayward. Personally, I’m not sure I do. I see it as a permanent change in the relationship's fabric. Similar to how a person in recovery is often viewed as a "recovering alcoholic" rather than a "former alcoholic," I believe the history of infidelity remains a factor.

Furthermore, while regaining trust is a significant benefit to a relationship, it isn't strictly a requirement for staying together. Many reconciling couples will openly admit they have never fully regained total trust. Ultimately, if she is satisfied with her current situation, that is what matters for her marriage.

I’ll add an addendum: I personally could never reconcile for this exact reason. I would be too untrusting and disgusted to make a relationship with a cheater work. That is largely irrelevant to her journey, though, as many people do find a way to make it function. The1stWife being one of them.

Feels awkward talking about this any further when she has commented, so that's the last I'll say on the matter. Ultimately, it's just my perspective.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:13 PM, Thursday, January 15th]

It just seems to me that she hardly ever has anything positive to say about her H or their marriage, while also having "happily reconciled" in their signature line. It pains me to think that someone might actually be really unhappy in their marriage but isn’t willing to admit it, while also advising others who are in a very fragile, impressionable state and choosing between D and R. If I was a BW reading her words and thought that I have to be this person who fights for power and respect in the relationship constantly, and can’t ever lose an argument if I want those things, I’d D and never marry again, because that sounds exhausting and totally not worth it. But that isn’t the way a marriage is supposed to be, and I was aiming to be the counter voice.

Way off base. We are happily married and happily reconciled. A point in time does not define 40+ years together. So while there’re times my H was inconsiderate and I had to be firm, please don’t take that as I am like that all the time or I am controlling.

I do trust him. He trusts me. We have mutual respect and truly love each other. But at the point in time he’s kicking me to the curb and is a lying cheating jerk, things had to change. I had to change and stop being a doormat or R was off the table.

If my H is not happy, he is certainly free to leave. As am I.

PS. I am not fearful of him leaving me. He’s now afraid I will leave him lol. As I previously stated I’m good with him or without him. Living my best life. So is he.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 4:29 PM, Thursday, January 15th]

I wonder if betrayed women have it worse when in reconciliation: can you still "look up" to your man and feel this kind of safety? That "he has your back" and your nerve system can relax with him?

You spoke a lot about how men think/feel. But much of what you posted is also true for many women. Feeling competitive, the way we might compete for a man, how we love and attach, much of it is the same. Regarding offspring, while a man may question his parenthood, some women might fear he has children out side the marriage or that he plans to abandon the children he has with her.

I don’t think women have it worse in reconciliation, no. I believe that most people in a marriage have a sense of safety and do look up to their partner - both genders do.

When we marry, we have a sense of safety that we are no longer competing for our partner - we have exchanged vows of commitment to this single relationship above ALL others. So that safety should exist, and does unless someone cheats.

As far as looking up to him goes, I think that is returning as he does the self-reflective work, talks about what happened with me, and openly shows by his words and actions that he "gets it" and works hard at reconciliation. It takes a very strong person to admit the things he has admitted, work to overcome the shame, and learn about one’s own inner being that allowed such a huge self-betrayal first and then to betray someone they loved. Not an easy task, that.

Not to mention working on making amends, reestablishing trust, and making huge life changes as well.

I can with him most of the time. And he now has the skills to know when I am triggered, or spiraling, or headed downhill - and steps in without prompting.

This takes a lot of time and effort. Like building a castle one brick at a time, ultimately the castle is built.

Thanks 5Decades, it sound like the effort is genuine and it is good to hear people can do it.

I talk a lot about men women because the trauma made my emotional intelligence mature a lot, and I feel is important to see both sides, we are complementary in both our positive and negative sides, and they can make the couple life either better or worse.

I know women are competitive and compete each other, sometimes it very fierce, I saw often in almost poisonous, eviscerating ways, though it tends to be 'subtle'.
When I talked about men, I meant the competition is overt, you face each other with a physical undertone that fives the feeling it can come to hands quickly if not for our social rules.

And yes men look up to their woman, she is elevated above anyone else after all.

Emotionally we have it very similar. I wondered because our nerve systems tend to relax in different (complementary) ways.
Our nerve system relax in the presence of femininity, when the partner feels 'happy' and she is allowing herself to flourish in her emotions without performing. Female nerve system tend to relax when they feel safety, certainty that they have a stable partner, someone you feel sure you can freely release your emotions without risking reaction (lashing back, being destabilized or trying to 'fix you').

Thank you, I understand a little bit more, it sounds you are both directed in a better place

Our nerve system relax in the presence of femininity, when the partner feels 'happy' and she is allowing herself to flourish in her emotions without performing. Female nerve system tend to relax when they feel safety, certainty that they have a stable partner, someone you feel sure you can freely release your emotions without risking reaction (lashing back, being destabilized or trying to 'fix you').

This was never the dynamic between my stbx (male) and me (female). I consider myself of nonbinary gender, though, and have often behaved in ways that are typically coded "male/masculine."

My stbx can only relax when he is doing something that makes *him* happy. Yes, he wants me to be happy too, but never at the expense of his own happiness.

I am a problem solver (so is stbx), and I like people trying to 'fix' me. I actively seek out advice and want to implement it, whether it is to change my thinking or improve my circumstances or make me a better person. He, on the other hand, really struggles to accept any kind of criticism, even if it's well intended.

As for an emotionally stable partner, I think that's something we all want!

I'm also going to point out that your male/female analysis leaves out same sex couples and couples with even more complicated gender dynamics.

I appreciate that you've learned a lot in your journey so far. You seem like an open-minded person, so I hope you can take this feedback in the spirit of opening your mind a bit further.

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 6:42 PM, Friday, January 16th]

I'm also going to point out that your male/female analysis leaves out same sex couples and couples with even more complicated gender dynamics.

That is partially true, we have LGBT couples in my family, the dynamics still resemble the polarity on how their nerve system interpret safety and stability.

I think is just human the need for stability in out partner is wired deeply in anyone, regardless of gender or orientation.

Thanks a lot for your insight!

Our nerve system relax in the presence of femininity, when the partner feels 'happy' and she is allowing herself to flourish in her emotions without performing. Female nerve system tend to relax when they feel safety, certainty that they have a stable partner, someone you feel sure you can freely release your emotions without risking reaction (lashing back, being destabilized or trying to 'fix you').

IMO, a lot - too much - of gender studies/experiments associate behavior with gender without actually proving a causal relationship. Sure, a few college students may be thought to relax when more women are around, but is it gender? Could it not be something else? Could 'relaxed' be wrongly identified? Could male students be more relaxed in the presence of women because they're bigger? Or something else entirely? Or would people relax among men who adopted some 'feminine' behavior - empathy and caring, for example?

The Yin-Yang school of philosophy argues that 1) one aspect of Yin is feminine energy; one aspect of Yang is male energy; 3) nothing is all Yin or all Yang; 4) Yin and Yang are far more than simply gender.

In any case, studies which attempt to identify biological causes for behavior generally state that there are so many outliers that the generalizations drawn from the studies are very shaky. That means gender differences are especially useless for couples impacted by infidelity. For us - for each and every one of us - figuring what is going on in our specific situation is necessary. The fact that 80% of gender X behave in a certain way does not help, because one's gender-X partner may be in the 20%. (Let's ignore that the boundary between the 80% and 20% is arbitrary, and those at the margin show some behaviors on both sides of the boundary.)

I'm not saying the experiments are useless. I'm just saying they aren't very useful, and they're distractions, for couples navigating their way out of infidelity.

I don’t wish to answer all those questions, but will say I could absolutely have cheated if I wanted to. The fact is the desire was never there. Great love for him was not the reason I stayed loyal, but rather a complete lack of interest in cheating. There was never even a temptation. Ironically, I could be flattered by another man complimenting me or hitting on me , but if he learned I was married and kept pursuing I was so turned off and no longer felt flattered. A man who pursues a married woman was/is trashy to me and compliments from trash are gross. No way in hell would sleeping with trash be tempting. I should add "knowingly" as I guess I was unknowingly sleeping with trash during his affair when he was trash as his affair partner was married too . The lack of interest in cheating was present even when I wasn’t much interested in my husband or marriage. After D day I wanted to WANT to cheat, but there was zero desire. I promised myself that if the desire to cheat ever presented itself I’d cheat without remorse or guilt. I felt I was owed that. I still feel that way a little, but not as strongly. Lucky for him, I still have zero desire. To be clear, I didn’t stay faithful simply because I had so much respect and love for him. I felt many of the same emotions he was feeling that led him to cheat. Maybe I was "lucky" that cheating was not going to "soothe" those feelings for me so I never considered it. I truly believe that if they would have made me feel good even for a little time, I’d have cheated too. I played my part in the distance in our relationship pre cheating . We both handled it differently. I could have done more to close the gap too. But, I am happy I never was tempted to destroy the relationship all together as he did. I’d hate to live with that shame.

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 6:34 PM, Saturday, January 17th]

@sissoon is spot on about pseudoscience supporting the gender generalizations here. I understand you did research and have studies to cite, but it is also true that there is NOT a scientific consensus on the causal relationships you are inferring from your research. Please tread carefully, you may be at the entrance to an odious pipeline with some of the rhetoric you are repeating...

[This message edited by torso1500 at 8:18 PM, Saturday, January 17th]

I didn't read all the questions. I will answer the ones I saw and can remember.

Could (or was it would) I have cheated?

Anyone can cheat. Not everyone would. I could. I'm also very aware and have had very firm boundaries for many years. A lot of people have described me as an empath. I can feel when something or someone is off. I listen to that feeling.

Would my H survive if I did cheat?

Yes

I think there was a question along the lines of whether or not my H would want R if I cheated.

I honestly don't know.

Early in our M way before he cheated, he said it would depend. Iirc, he said something after DDay about how he didn't think he could stay with me if I cheated.

Unsolicited advice is rarely appreciated, especially from someone who has only a very tiny snapshot of the situation. I can totally understand why an entitled cheater would bristle at the idea of the BP being in charge after DDay.

The thing is, hopefully, the BP sets firm boundaries and sticks to them. The BP doesn't lock the cheater in the basement. They get to decide whether or not they can live with those boundaries.

How did it change me/How did I change?

I became emotionally closed off, not just from my H, but from everyone and everything.

My relationship with my H before he cheated was the first one where I felt truly safe and unconditionally loved. I exposed all of myself to him and he, seemingly, accepted me for who I am.

Turned out he hadn't accepted me at all. He didn't even know me. He had an idea in his head of how people are and how a M should be and put me in that box. I could've been anyone as long as I agreed to marry him.

When he finally started to see me for who I really am, I didn't live up to his expectations. I didn't fit into his box. He couldn't accept me.

So, I learned to close myself off. If the one person in the world who I ever felt safe with wasn't safe, no one is.

Our nerve system relax in the presence of femininity, when the partner feels 'happy' and she is allowing herself to flourish in her emotions without performing. Female nerve system tend to relax when they feel safety, certainty that they have a stable partner, someone you feel sure you can freely release your emotions without risking reaction (lashing back, being destabilized or trying to 'fix you').

Please keep in mind that in many cases the within group difference is larger than between group difference, which makes the group mean comparison not very meaningful. The variance (within group difference) is particularly higher in males than females in many behaviors and temperaments, and that part seems to be more nature than nurture.

[This message edited by Sadnanxious at 8:11 AM, Monday, January 19th]