SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Well, this thread is certainly going all over the place.

There has been much talk of 'consequences' in terms that equate to punishment and humiliation, based on their presumed deterrent effect, and justified by their perception as being so well deserved.

However, if the desired goal is to prevent cheating from happening again, the best guarantee of that is for the wayward spouse to want to change, and to have a desire to prove that change to their betrayed partner. So this is not so much a time for BR to be pounding contrition into his wife or branding the word 'Cheat' across her forehead as letting her know the following months are her opportunity to prove to him why he should stay with her.

She will either want to do that, or she won't, and if she doesn't, there is no point BR making lots of effort trying to make her do it. It will be a waste of time.

She needs to be in IC, figuring out why she did this, and whether she thinks NSA sex is worth losing the marriage over. I daresay BR has made it very clear indeed that if she acts like this in future, she will be a single woman so fast it will make her head spin.

She needs to work on controlling her libido, rather than letting it control her.

She needs to figure out if this is a mid-life crisis, and how to get her validation in a safer way.

Like Odonna, I think the contents of the wife's journal, and what is there and what is not there, can be hugely revealing about her reasons for embarking on this phase of her life, and her likelihood to slip back into it.

I also think it is interesting that she was putting so many thoughts into a journal, in which she was essentially talking to herself, rather than talking to her husband. Obviously, she could not discuss her NSA sex with her husband, but I wonder how much of her life goes into a journal, rather than being discussed and shared with BR.

Keeping a journal can be a healthy way for people to get their thoughts in perspective, as long as it is not the only place where important thoughts are expressed. I am commenting from a distance, but I would say that it would be good for BR and his wife to schedule a regular time to talk about themselves and whatever is on their mind.

It sounds like BR's wife made her decisions in isolation, based on her internal dialogue, and that is something that really needs to stop, because it resulted in some bad and potentially destructive choices being made.

In terms of consequences, I would guess that the atmosphere at home, and the growing awareness of the impact of her actions, have all weighed greatly on the wife's mind. She will not be feeling great about herself, and she will know that she has put her marriage at risk. She knows she hurt her husband, and she knows she has damaged her credibility and integrity.

BR is no fool, and I think he has handled this situation very well, preferring effective and productive measures to actions motivated solely by anger or a desire for payback.

His wife now knows BR is in a state of heightened awareness, and I think it is unlikely that she would get away with any inappropriate actions for very long before being busted. She has already been banished from the house and had her actions exposed to her parents, so she can be in little doubt that a repeat performance would not lead to a robust and more permanent response.

As much as VAR and GPS monitoring can play their part in busting an unreformed wayward, equal significance belongs to the efforts they make to change and prove it to their betrayed spouses, and that area is certainly one on which BR should focus in the coming months.

** Posting as a member **

T/J - Before spouting wild over-generalizations, please determine if your ideas are actually valid and whether they are due to nature or nurture. Devise and run experiments. Publish your results in a peer-reviewed journal. See if the best in the field agree with your conclusions. Then, if your results get traction among the pros, come back here with them.

Without that, I'd be interested in reading about people's own experiences and responses, without unnecessary, unwarranted/not proven over-generalizations.

*****

If you're accused of being racist or sexist or whatever-ist, I suggest that, you check into Harvard's implicit bias tests, before you defend yourself.

I suggest including your results in your self-defense.

End T/J

If you're accused of being racist or sexist or whatever-ist, I suggest that, you check into Harvard's implicit bias tests, before you defend yourself.

No thanks.

Implicit bias is a theory that makes sweeping claims, and the Harvard test has been abused in all sorts of harmful (and exceedingly political) ways. Not to mention that a person’s score can vary every time they take the test. The leading lights of the “research’ on implicit bias now have admitted that it does not predict biased behavior, and it hasn’t even been subjected to any research on a connection to real-world behavior.

Talk about irony. Your entire t/j lecture on having to conduct peer-reviewed research every time one shares an opinion and then puritanically scolding with half-baked nonsense about a very questionable test is a self-refuting snake eating its own tail.

If someone accuses someone else of racism or sexism, as is exceedingly common these days, there’s no burden on the accused to prove innocence by taking a questionable test.

And we really are thread jacking at this point. If someone wants to discuss this in another forum, great. I’ll be happy to, or maybe I’m worn slick by it at this point. But let’s keep this thread focused on helping BR. Please.

Excellent post M1965. BR please read and reread his post. I agree with this analysis.

Good luck.

I think WW's journal occupied a lot of head and heart space that would normally go to an AP.

Affair bubble. No matter how dumb the affair seems to the participants in hindsight, while in action the secrecy is intoxicating. Here it seems like the journal and the open marriage friend provided the fantasy feedback loop.

M1965

However, if the desired goal is to prevent cheating from happening again, the best guarantee of that is for the wayward spouse to want to change, and to have a desire to prove that change to their betrayed partner. So this is not so much a time for BR to be pounding contrition into his wife or branding the word 'Cheat' across her forehead as letting her know the following months are her opportunity to prove to him why he should stay with her.

Thank you. Until and unless I decide to divorce occurs, I simply cannot based on my situation, not others on here, feel that right this moment telling every family member, all my children, all the extended family, and all of our friends would do absolutely nothing to improve the odds of trying to rebuild and recover from this. What benefit other than REVENGE do any of these things have for ME. I can certainly see that being done with a WW who refuses to stop an affair, or continues to cheat..

I daresay BR has made it very clear indeed that if she acts like this in future, she will be a single woman so fast it will make her head spin.

If she has not figured that out, we have no hope. And the same is true if i find out it has happened in the past on top of this.

BR is no fool, and I think he has handled this situation very well, preferring effective and productive measures to actions motivated solely by anger or a desire for payback.

Some think I am a fool. Time will tell.

Odonna

I do not know the exact date years ago she started to journal. My guess is it started when the girls got in high school because she wanted to talk to herself about all the decisions that had to be made when she was shepherding the girls through the "teen" years and all the college decisions doing most of the legwork herself.

The journal was NOT an "affair" journal. Lots of stuff about running and work mixed in with comments about guys. Most of the "affair" talk and reflections came in e mails and conversations with girlfriend.

As a side note, she has told her girlfriend that since she is not racing that their communication should be only about their few interactions at work and that she does not want any talk about running or men. I guess that is good. I did not tell her to do that.

Since she is back in house, I do not think it is healthy to 24/7 be talking about this. Because I have such detailed information, a lot of questions that most BH have have been answered.

I told her i will ask what I want if I want but that we will set a time each week to talk about her actions.

Tonight, I am going with her to our health club so she can go to a spinning class and I can lift weights and go home together. And i know that pretty soon I will want to have sex with her. She has told me she will do whatever and whenever I want and is thankful that I am still even interested. We have hugged so far and that is it.

She wants to ask her Mom to ride with her next week when she travels, and at night they can have a dinner together. I am not sure if that is a good idea.

I have three questions in my mind for the polygraph but that is down the road. And to date, I am NOT rushing into IC or MC.

Nothing incriminating on the VAR. No break in NC,

Has she been tested for STD’s yet?

Some think I am a fool. Time will tell.

You are no fool. You will recognize that the fault in her personality allowing her to have an affair had nothing to do with you or even the APs. She was using the APs. The question becomes, does she love you and others or does she love what you and others provide FOR HER. Her willingness to give up her integrity to collect more from others falls in the same fault with her looking to others for happiness. What she needs is to learn is that true happiness comes from within. Please learn to see she is learning this and not just controlling herself to stay out of trouble and minimizing her loss.

BR - I hate to stir things, but this is going to come up in your heart/head later.

You have to ask her to prove why you should believe this is the first and only time.

I bet that is on your poly too. It usually is phrased, "Aside from the 2 people (named), are there other people you have had sex with during the marriage to BR."

Just helping with the questions. Good luck.

You seem way too calm. Have you done anything like this in the past? We are internet strangers? It's ok. BTW - Not accusing, just trying to understand your temperament.

Also, you need to do another set of squats. You type like you have been skipping on the quads!

A little teasing to get you fired up for the big plates. Hanz and Franz style. One gym rat to another. Pull downs and seated row are my favorite. Kind of stuff we chat about in "I can relate" betrayed men's thread.

A little comradery with advice infused might help.

She wants to ask her Mom to ride with her next week when she travels, and at night they can have a dinner together. I am not sure if that is a good idea.

Why is that??

I wondered about the dinner with her mom too.

You have a lot of women in your life. 4 daughters and a wife. You're not sure your daughters will take your side if it comes to that. The open marriage friend that may not be a monster, but certainly gave your WW a model to follow. The toxic female friend is certainly an issue that can cause infidelity with women. I had that experience.

Women rule the home life in many houses. Are you feeling isolated or anything similar? I am just guessing.

Ramius

The answer to your question is yes

Doin

I never said they would take her side . I said I was not sure they would disown her .

The idea to take her mother overnight was a way in her mind to try to have me not worried . I rejected that idea . Told her it was positive she thought of it but if she needs chaperone to do the right thing it won’t help as well as I’m not sure her boss would appreciate it

I understand the toxic friend basically had to go . She addressed that one

As for being “calm”. I don’t think she’d agree with you . I m really not sure why I need to describe every time I get upset.

It’s late and typing on the cell is not easy

Hi, BR, I think you mistakenly posted one of your last responses in "unsure's" post.

Having said that, I think you are doing well, at least on paper and in your approach.

The one thing I wanted to mention, and honestly I haven't read all of this thread, is consequences.

I, too, found out about my WH affair by accident. I had installed spyware on my computer to keep an eye on my tween/teen sons, and there it was, in black in white, the string of emails between my WH and OW. Blindsided doesn't begin to describe how I felt.

Anyhow, getting back to consequences, my WH had trained in karate since he was a child. At the time of discovery, he had achieved 7th dan, ran a dojo part-time, it was his life's passion. He willingly gave it up to work on the marriage. A consequence of his affair so to speak. Life will never be the same, there is a new normal. He also stopped socializing on the job (a work affair) as he understood how uncomfortable it made me and tried to do everything to help me feel safe.

Just some food for thought, personally I think self-reflection and introspection are necessary, but due to the nuclear bomb being dropped on the marriage, and in essence the entire family, concessions are necessary to rebuild trust. Hopefully they are voluntary.

BR, I agree with you that notifying everyone of the A probably would not be helpful if you choose to work toward R. However, you shouldn't feel as though you can't talk to people about it when you need to. If you have a good friend that you want to discuss it with, you should do so. I'm sure you know who you can trust with the information.

It is not about revenge, but about helping you heal. Part of the consequences of an A is that some people are going to find out. You certainly can't stop the AP's from talking. They may choose to do so.

You remind me of another BH on another site. His DDay was a couple years ago.

He found a suitcase in a spare bedroom closet when looking for something. In it was all the lingerie she worn for her other man.

Like your wife she had just started back to work after their kids were in college.

Also like you for some reason he ended up being ok with it for so reason.

My only suggestion would be to divorce her. She would still be doing this if you had not caught her. She never had a wtf am I doing and stopped on her own. She never had any guilt for it or she would have stopped. From what I read it’s “you still want to have sex with me after what I did????”

She is losing all respect for you at this time. She is grateful that you are not blowing her world up (the other husband blew his wife’s world all to hell before they reconciled, and she still came back begging him not to leave her). I wonder if your wife would want anything to do with you if you did the same? Her kids hated her for a while but the relationship from what he has said is a lot better now. It made his wife see the reality of what she had done.

Your wife has not had any real consequences for her actions. She had sex with 2 other men, would still be having sex with them, and gets to keep you. She must think you’re such a catch.

Ok so her parents know and she had to stay with them for a week. Big deal.

Best of luck with your rug sweep.

[This message edited by Smoked at 8:34 AM, September 13th (Friday)]

Could you provide a link to this story smoked? I know some one who needs to read it...

It is in the private section of the other site.

Won’t be able to view unless they have been on the site and posting.

Also like you for some reason he ended up being ok with it for so reason.

In almost 300 posts in this thread, I did not read anything that indicated that BR is "ok with it." I don't understand how it can be interpreted that he is fine with her betrayal just because he is not going scorched earth.

She is losing all respect for you at this time. She is grateful that you are not blowing her world up (the other husband blew his wife’s world all to hell before they reconciled, and she still came back begging him not to leave her). I wonder if your wife would want anything to do with you if you did the same? Her kids hated her for a while but the relationship from what he has said is a lot better now. It made his wife see the reality of what she had done.

To piggyback on M1965's great post, I don't believe that the idea of garnering respect by fear works in the context of R. It certainly works in a jail yard or for a substitute teacher in a class full of punk kids, but not in an intimate relationship. Assuming you want R and not just to stay married, how would you ever know that the person has remorse or they are just waking up next to you every morning because they've been shamed into doing so and/or cannot leave due to a having given up a job or provided a post nup that effectively makes it impossible to do so?

If a person cannot see the devastation that they've wrought through the natural consequences of their action(s), then there is not hope for an intimate relationship going forward. It's over. Punishment is not going to get them to "wake up" in that sense. It may keep them toeing the line but that is not synonymous with R. R is what BR has stated he desires.

Best of luck with your rug sweep.

Seems like a parting shot. You are entitled to your opinion that he is rug sweeping, but I am not sure why you have to state it in such a disrespectful manner.

BR, I think you are doing great. I also think your wife has reacted better than 95% of wayward spouses do after Dday.

Some folks on here simply cannot accept that some wayward spouses feel really horrible and remorseful as soon as they are discovered and that they really do accept responsibility as soon as the affair is discovered. It sounds like your wife is one of those wayward who gets it. She may not be perfect but she is certainly reconciliation material, if that's what you want.

I think you have handled this quite well and I wish you the best of luck.