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We are all individuals, each capable of the full range of human experience. Keep these sexist remarks to yourself please Thumos.

Sorry for the t/j but I could not let this go unremarked.

We’re both veering into t/j here, so let’s agree to disagree. I want you to know I wasn’t trying to be sexist and I don’t think noting gender differences (our brains actually work in completely different ways) is sexist. But I’m stopping there. Let’s keep it focused on advice to help the OP. My only point with this was to help him understand, at least from my point of view, why I believe many WW’s are untroubled and seem untouched by the notion of “broken vows.”

Just a couple of thoughts.

BR – On the standard answers (Liked the sex and the sense of power…)

Of the two the later is the real issue IMHO.

I’m a former cop and early on in that career a seasoned veteran pointed out something that (nearly) EVERYONE I had to deal with did: Justify their actions.

Not explain, not understand, but JUSTIFY. Make some excuse to make what they did “reasonable” or “understandable”.

Ove the years I saw numerous cases where this applied. I venture that for every 100 people I stopped for speeding, DUI, battery, rape… whatever… maybe one would simply accept their blame with no minimizing or excuse.

“Everyone speeds here on this road. I was simply staying with the traffic”

“One beer usually doesn’t impede my driving. I think I have the flu and that’s why I swerved”

“She wasn’t serious when she cried “no”. She likes it rough”

“There isn’t any victim in burglary since everyone is insured”

“He asked for it. He spilled my beer. I had to punch him”

And maybe the worst I personally heard:

“That [8-year-old] kid enjoyed it when I gave him a BJ”

The weirdest one? The guy that drove into the stationary food-truck that had been on the same spot for several years. He insisted that they must have moved it because he had been getting his lunch there for over a year, always taking the same swerve and NEVER hitting the truck. Only “logical” explanation was that the truck had been moved.

Of the two “standard” answers your wife gave one is correct, the other is an excuse. Unfortunately, the excuse is possibly what will cause YOU the most pain.

There are two reasons IMHO people cheat. Two REAL reasons:

Validation and power.

She had the affairs to validate something, and that “something” could be connected to power. Like being able to get men to have sex with her validates she still has appeal and that gives her a sense of power.

By the time your WW could rate the sex… It was too late. It’s no less an affair if OM had ED or came too quick.

For you – if you reconcile and if your WW works on her issues – realizing that her affairs were due to her deficiencies (and lack of validation and the need for power = insecurity = personal deficiencies) is easier to handle than the thought that sex with OM was in some ways better -> making you question YOUR sex.

The second point:

A post-nup is being thrown around like it’s the Solution to All.

The only solid legal-related advice offered on SI is the suggestion you have an attorney deal with all legal issues. That includes a post-nup.

If you want a post-nup then this definitely is the time to get one. But suggestions like she leaves the marriage destitute with no alimony might possibly cause more damage than they fix. Post-nups are delicate instruments and a draconian post-nup can (probably) be easily contested in court. Agreements signed under duress are easily countered, as are unreasonable divorce demands.

You most likely could dictate certain terms in a post-nup. For example; if you divorce then you get the house at a certain lower market-value or that certain funds are considered separate property. Or you could dictate that the house be her share in a divorce at full top market value, thereby minimizing whatever claim she might otherwise have to other funds.

Just be careful and don’t think a post-nup will solve all.

I’m a former cop and early on in that career a seasoned veteran pointed out something that (nearly) EVERYONE I had to deal with did: Justify their actions.

Not explain, not understand, but JUSTIFY. Make some excuse to make what they did “reasonable” or “understandable”.

Solid advice.

I think the sexual plan B comments are inaccurate in this situation. The WW was having very sporadic sex on the side when she occasionally travelled for races. I have no idea but I assume the frequency of sex with BS vs POSOM was probably 5 or 10 to 1. That does not sound like plan B in any way, shape or form. Not that it makes it ok, but it isn't like WW was dumping BS sexually or emotionally. Not even close.

I also have to agree with Odonna about the honor and women comment, Thumos. Let's send that comment to 100 female BS here on SI and see what they think about the advanced and "visceral way men" understand honor. That would be a fun thread to read.

also have to agree with Odonna about the honor and women comment, Thumos. Let's send that comment to 100 female BS here on SI and see what they think about the advanced and "visceral way men" understand honor. That would be a fun thread to read.

Sure, do it. Again this is t/j but the differences in gender perceptions of honor have long been noted by anthropologists and psychologists — and let’s stipulate that the male perception of honor can be carried out in harmful and extreme ways (like the vendetta culture in the Mediterranean or suicide culture in medieval feudal Japan). I’m one who believes that genders actually exist, which is in and of itself a “bigoted” and controversial notion these days. But I do believe that men have a biological and visceral understanding of things like honor and emasculation that is fundamentally different from women’s lived experience. I don’t find that particularly controversial or sexist, but YMMV. I also believe this can account for a philosophical perceptual difference on the view of marital vows. I don’t think I’m the only man around who views marital vows as a blood oath that one breaks only at great cost to one’s honor. That’s a male chauvinist view, I realize. But I think I’m far from being the only man who sees it that way. And I doubt very many women, especially WW’s, see it that way — even after reconciliation. But sure, go ahead. Maybe I’ll be pleasantly shocked at how wrong I am.

I think the sexual plan B comments are inaccurate in this situation.

I see no reason to repose any confidence in your assessment unless the OP has some relevant information we haven’t seen or heard yet. Anecdotally based on what OP has shared, she was intent on sharing her sexual best and being more sexually adventurous with two younger men. That seems the very definition of making the provisioner husband sexual plan B.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:55 AM, September 9th (Monday)]

It wasn't you I aimed at Thumos. Sorry.

Beyond Rage:

** I asked all the down and dirty details on sex acts. there is nothing i can thing of that we have not done so unless she got herself tied up and whipped, she did nothing with anyone than she has not done with me. I think its TMI to share but if anyone really things it will be helpful Ill condider it.

Thumos:

she was intent on sharing her sexual best and being more sexually adventurous with two younger men. That seems the very definition of making the provisioner husband sexual plan B.

How do you define “she was intent on sharing her sexual best and being more sexually adventurous,” Thumos? At first blush, your opinion appears to directly contradict what BR stated.

Thumos, it may be that you interpret any WS that has a PA as automatically relegating BS to plan b. If so, I can understand that. I do not agree though. I think plan b status requires more intent and a replacing type of activity to actually merit being a plan b.

Beyond Rage made it pretty clear that he and WW have been sexually adventurous and that the PA instances, while planned, were infrequent and sporadic. His WW has a high sex drive, enjoyed being pursued by younger men and took advantage of that pursuit occasionally on race trips. She shut down the guy who is being overly assumptive about her involvement and pushing her to do more. I believe you are the one who is assuming she is giving her sexual best, or something she has never given to her husband to these younger men. Byondrage has her Personal Diary about all of these instances and after exhaustive conversation this last week does not believe he was Plan B sexually or otherwise. You are projecting your assumptions into his story. I am listening to his story and taking the significant amount of data he has available to him and acknowledging that that is likely the truth. His WW has likely been doing the same things she does for her husband with these younger men but enjoying the energy and the feeling of being desired by younger men.

No matter the case it is all painful. But I would describe it not as a plan B but that BeyondRage is a firm plan A but WW was pursuing some side dishes occasionally when she had the chance. Does it matter? Well, we can debate that. But I think when a couple is possibly going to reconcile the way you describe the affair does matter. You have to be truthful to the facts but the pain and trauma can often exaggerate the facts. We on this forum don't need to be provoking that exaggeration. It happens in the mind of the Betrayed with little help at all, unfortunately.

Your comments on gender differences and honor are interesting. I am not one for political correctness nor am I an admirer of the sjw movement. I served in the Army and my understanding of Honor was shaped by that experience. We could debate the sources of your point of view but to keep this brief I would say that I agree with the fact that men and women often view things differently. The problem is when you post in a forum like this about a uniformly positive quality like honor and then give an almost blanket like assertion that, for all intents and purposes, women don't have it but men do, well, I hope you can see how easily you come across as sexist. Your clarifying post shows there may be some Merit to your point of view once definitions are clarified. However, your first post on the matter offered no such elucidation. This does your point of view a disservice and it will certainly win you little influence with many people who read your first assertion. Particularly when we are discussing infidelity and the research in the space clearly shows that men outpace women in regard to percentage who commit adultery.

I am taking a contrary position to these comments but it is easy to acknowledge that many of your assertions and the way you share your personal experience can be of great benefit to others here.

BR my situation was somewhat different, but in many ways the same. Beautiful, but now with grown daughters who attracted more attention than her. Along comes a younger guy who gives her a lot of attention, and then off to the races.

Like you, I was never plan b. Her AP was again way younger with little kids at home. I was never going to be replaced for that. Also, it was for the most part purely sexual, and she was able to kiss me hello with a big smile even a few hours after being with him, because it was never about me

I want to commend you as you have done everything right, and it looks like she is doing the right things too. I wouldn’t be surprised as a s smart recourse full person she isn’t on here looking at your posts and the library. Nothing wrong with that BTW.

The only word of caution is though your name is beyond rage, you haven’t even seen what real rage is. You are In the middle of a hurricane and doing everything to protect yourself, family, and even her. But when the storm clears and you can step back and really feel the devastation watch out. That will be rage

I just couldn’t understand how my wife would put everything at risk for a roll in the hay with some douchebag. Falling in love with her old high school love? Ok, I might understand risking everything for that. But for the slimy electrician?

I buried the rage, but it never went away. She had no consequence other than a pissed off husband who never again looked at her other than damaged goods. You are doing the right thing by making her give up the racing. I would also look at any instances where she could hook up with trainers at her old gym. They would fit the profile of the guys she hooked up with.

I hope you make it through. I didn’t, but like I said I buried my rage. Let it out when you need too. Otherwise you will end up like me. Even having a remorseful wife, it will be hard to over come with lingering resentment.

Your comments on gender differences and honor are interesting.

I think it’s clear I overstated the case. I didn’t mean to imply that betrayed wives don’t feel their sense of honor has been violated. They obviously do. I was trying to make a a bit of an anthropological point about what I do believe are real gender differences, but did so inartfully.

Beyond Rage made it pretty clear that he and WW have been sexually adventurous and that the PA instances, while planned, were infrequent and sporadic. His WW has a high sex drive, enjoyed being pursued by younger men and took advantage of that pursuit occasionally on race trips.

TRDD

Thank you . I think some folks have missed the "sporadic" part. She could have done it a lot more and I have seen e mails to girlfriend where she flat out says she just didn't feel like it. Does not make it right, just makes it clear this was not a compulsive thing where every time she had the opportunity to get near a penis she did.

THUMOS

I am NOT pushing her into IC immediately. There is an old saying that doctors use which state "do no harm". Right now, the last thing I need is if I pick the wrong one that I create more problems than I already have. If I was forced to choose IC or MC I would choose the latter where I hear everything that is said up close and personal.

As far as the one sided open marriage thing. What infidelity isn't that??? Is a WW that fucks a guy at work exclusively three times a week without telling hubby not the same one sided open marriage.???

There are two reasons IMHO people cheat. Two REAL reasons:

Validation and power.

Bigger, bingo. In my opinion you hit it out of the park. I think this happens a lot when the nest emptys and all of a sudden this woman who was getting ego kibbles from coaches from universities calling her, parents raving about her daighters, heading team parent groups and spinning classes where she developed a following that would go from one club to another to take her classes. All of a sudden that is all gone when we deposit the last one in the dorm room. And now add in the late forties bit to the mix.

If I had the time now I could write alot more but you are right on target.

There still seems to be a bit of concern that I was sexual plan B. Here comes the TMI so if it bothers you stop reading.

SEXUAL INTERCOURSE- three to four times a week with me. Less than ten total times between the two of them

BLOW JOBS- yup.

SWALLOW - no. She doesn't like it, and she was not in an affair where she was performing in order to keep OM interested or because she thought she loved them.

HAPPY ENDINGS- yup

ANAL- no. She does not like it. We have tried it and it is not on my must have list

Now how do I know this for sure and that she is not lying. Let me remind you I have a very large e mail trail between her and girlfriend where they discussed a lot of shit that is not exactly dinner conversation. She had absolutely no reason to lie to someone who was I have no contact with. I am not wasting a polygraph question on specific sex acts.

She has admitted that ten years ago when she went thought a GNO binge that I made her stop that when drinking to much and dancing with guys she has been felt up of grinded on on the dance floor. Guess what? In my younger days I have been guilty of letting my hand slide down a little too far on to a girls ass. So I am letting that go other than asking the question about sex with men I do not know about on a test.

I have read a bunch of stories here where women can "compartmentalize" what they are doing and others can't. the ones that can are harder to catch and yes I was lucky. The ones that can't compartmentalize are where they cut the hubby off from sex or put off all sorts or red flags that are missed bacause hubby is in denial.

And no one without a crystal ball knows how far and long this would have gone. The amazing thing is she interacts with physicians and medical staffs daily and I am sure she has been hit on. But as Bigger said, the power is easier over some 30 year old that looks at a married woman as catnip.

WWTL

You may be right. I might at some point hit the stage you did. Who the fuck knows. All I can do is plan for the near future. I am sorry you did not make it but if it took you that long I am sure you gave it everything you had.

I really doubt seriously she is reading anything on here. I am not telling her about this site in this lifetime. She is getting pretty damm good advice, as I stated, from the most unlikely source, the girlfriend who cheated and got caught.

Right now, I have a one night business trip that she has to take upcoming, and then quick trips to see a couple of my girls play.

BR,

Your WW was her own Plan A. You and the APs were all Plan B.

She chose herself. Now you choose you. Let her do as she will. I would get into IC, for you, with an emphasis on detaching.

You have some fears about what divorce would bring. I think you need to face those, so divorce is something you can at least visualize. There is always cost to it. I am not going to promise roses.

But you have to look at your alternatives. If you have to plaster a happy husband grin on your face for the next 30 years, is it worth it?

I think the battle for me would be is any man enough to satisfy her? Your sex life already seemed fulfilling, every time you finish now... I would wonder. Are you going to believe you are enough for her now?

BR - Respectfully, she is doing nothing to show any remorse. She should have immediately quit all runs. Instead she asks you if she should. Not a good sign. She should have immediately cancelled all out of town trips. She should have immediately started IC. Instead she tells you the best “business decision” is to rig sweep. One of the OM asked to come down because he thought you might allow an open marriage? So she is still in contact. Very bad sign. Second OM is blowing up her phone asking where she is - so the affair would be ongoing absent your coming home early. No stopping by her. No unsolicited confession. No sign of understanding the enormity of what she has done to you. IMHO she is NOT R material. Good luck sir.

I was trying to make a a bit of an anthropological point about what I do believe are real gender differences, but did so inartfully.

There still is no basis for this belief biologically or sociologically. It's not inartfully stated; there's simply no factual basis to support such a statement. As such, it's prejudicial, and thus, sexist.

I personally think there can be argument made that divorce is objectively more honorable than existing in a marriage where one continues to disrespect a spouse daily by lying, abusing, manipulating, etc.. Claiming the moral high ground because one didn't get divorced and instead chose to dishonor their vows on a daily basis is flat out absurd and no different than the cognitive dissonance of a WS, or in an extreme example, cognitive dissonance that begets a perverted sense of honor and justification espoused by a terrorist.

What a mess.

It's all about jealousy about her girl friend. No respect at all for you from her side.

Maybe everybody would not agree with me but some kind of cheater's need REAL punishment to wake them fuck up. That's things you wrote here is just pathetic kind of punishment you do here.

She has no respect for you since she wrote entire journal of this cheating. She enjoyed it, every moment of it.

I guess the only things to wake the fuck up her is to show her one sided open relationship to make her feel the same, to make her feel in same skin.

I've talked with so many cheater's after my dday and all of them say that punishment is the only thing that wake them up.

You say you don't feel emasculated. But you emasculated in her eyes until you gain it. Sad but it's true. You may never forgive her, but she will never forgive that you forgive her. Its dumb but it's true. Womens have no respect for men who forgive cheating. That maybe make no sense to you but you need to show her that she is not your "last chance" even if she not irl.

And btw cut that girl friend from her friend circle. This is how it's all happening, because of friends. "Show me your friends and i show you who you are".

I obviously have no respect for you for this things you wrote.

[This message edited by Davi123 at 4:11 PM, September 9th (Monday)]

BR you have a good head on your shoulders and despite the emotional trauma you have been put through you have maintained your good judgement. Many could learn from your example. Be vigilant. The forum is filled with similar stories of WW’s recently in the empty nest acting out. As Bigger described he is spot on. You have gotten many answers some wait years for in her journal and your discussions. My guess is your WW will never venture this way again, but who knows. You can rest knowing you will be able to handle whatever happens in the future with her or without her. You have done well. Keep on, keepin on.

[This message edited by fareast at 6:31 PM, September 9th (Monday)]

"I have no respect for you"????

Damn dude he's doing the best he can and from my perspective he's handling this pretty damn good thus far.

He's pressing forward, not sticking his head in the sand, and all options are on the table as he sorts this clusterfuck out.

My guess is your WW will never venture this way again, but who knows.

It's been 5 weeks already without APs! Maybe she should get a gold star. Plenty of women don't need to learn this particular lesson.

An earlier poster mentioned that many WS don't reform completely until under real threat of divorce. Honestly, there is truth to this from what I have seen here. Affairs are a dirty business; sometimes the bluntest action is the best.

I agree with Booyah, he has acted decisively thus far and has gained much more information in such a short period of time than most BS. He is making his choice with his eyes open, and from his posts he seems like the kind that is more than willing to reevaluate his choices if new information becomes available. He won't be floundering in infidelity like other BS threads I've read lately.