SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Catch44, there are several aspects in your situation that I relate to. A lot of what you say about your wife--the As were originally to exit the M, that she wants to return to the M on her own terms even though she cheated--are things I have said in my M. I don't relate to everything your W has experienced, like the possible childhood abuse, but some of it.

I think that a spouse who has given a lot of headspace to leaving the M--prior to ever cheating--has a lot more issues to overcome before the R can be healed. Here on SI where infidelity is THE core issue for most, that is all that matters to some. But if in fact the WS is not fully committed to the M even though they feel much shame for cheating, it is tricky to push too hard if you see effort from the WS. If you push too hard, will she just give up? Will you regret that you didn't give her requests more of a chance? Will it feel as if she was making progress, even though it was slow, and then you just cut it off? And will you blame yourself? I understand how those thoughts can torment your heart and mind. There are no easy answers.

I can only speak for myself: if my H had pushed too hard early on--when I had overwhelming shame for my behavior AND overwhelming resentment about years of manipulation and selfishness on his part, things he never took seriously until my A was exposed and we began the divorce process--I would have actually pulled the plug. Period. But my H cut me a lot of slack after we stopped the D because he knew that he had done many somewhat abusive things, and he thought he played a role in ruining our M. My A was not his fault at all, but he did see my A as part of the sh$t show that was the end of our M. He gave me space because of that, space to see if I wanted to stay, space for both of us to start changing. After all, we did get almost all the way through divorce before we came back together, so he knew this was serious for me, not just whining or power. He decided that if I was willing to end the M--with no AP on the scene--he should look at what had gotten me there, so we both worked on ourselves. Very slowly.

You are hurting, and your WW runs the risk of pushing you too far away. Does she realize that? If you can't take the insult anymore, you should definitely go. But if you feel effort and change on her part, it's ok to want to heal the M. (It's also ok if you don't.) Marriages and infidelity are very complicated things, and many people need to try a lot of methods and ideas before they abandon ship. You need to do what you believe is right. Have I come back around 100% in my M? No. But my M does keep getting better. We are both changing. There is a lot of hope.

But your marital hope vs. your personal pain?

Only you can make that call.

I get it, though. There is a lot on the line.

Yes, any boundary may be heard as an ultimatum, but boundaries are essential. Maybe using MC sessions to set boundaries would get both of you into the frame of mind to hear boundaries, not ultimata.

But after infidelity, you both need to realize communications, which is largely non-verbal, have broken down. One antidote is to start saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Another is to ask for what you want.

A third is to set your boundaries. If your boundaries and hers conflict, either work out boundaries that don't conflict, or D amicably, because you don't fit together in an M.

She has said during an argument that she has been falling back in love with me but then I mention the affairs and it hurts her (paraphrased) and she backs up. I see it a bit as a punishment since I still trigger daily.

That's what concerns me. Being reminded of cheating on a very frequent schedule is one of the natural and probably inevitable consequences of cheating. But she turns them into 'poor me' moments.

She would like to see me allow her to come to me organically.

Gently, that's not a healthy dynamic. She has every right to set her boundaries, just as you have for yours. She doesn't need your permission.

She's setting you up as Parent here. Then, when you start going where you want to take the relationship, she switches on you, time and again. And you allow it.

I urge you to get a copy of Games People Play by Eric Berne. It's in the public domain; pdf is available for free on the web.

I also urge you to look into the Drama Triangle - karpmandramatriangle.com is a good place to start (citation OKed by mod) and the ever-relevant Co-Dependent No More by Melody Beattie.

but i can see why your wife would struggle with moving towards any type of intimacy because of the 17 (did you say 17????) years of demands for sex from you

This is tough for me to fully understand. It has gone from, I raped my W, to "it felt like rape", and when I asked if our whole sex life was a lie I was told there were times she enjoyed it. I asked which times. Now we are at mostly discussing emotional abuse. When I say this I don't want to discount the ODS. I believe it was a problem, but when I say there has been a pedulum shift with the abuse counselling, this is what I mean. It went right to rape and now seems to be dialing down to dysfunctional.

thats going to take quite a while to get over i would have thought

can you get yourself to a point where it isn't so important - seriously the overwhelming sense i get from you is your need/want of sex - can i suggest a spot of masturbation?

I am leaning toward a slower approach. I see love, there is just a lot of damage everywhere. Working on it.

name calling - others have (or seem to) say its no big deal, i think it is, right after D Day a bit of name calling is probably inevitable and manageable - but years and years of it - soul destroying....

I know I'm tit for tatting but let me vent. Last argument, my W was calling my me parent names. AKA you are just like your parents/FOO. It pissed me off. Because she does the same, just differently.

I am looking forward to MC addressing our argument dynamic.

your WW has an issue with power.

I think this is true to an extent. Something that is a longterm goal I want to address in MC. I believe that there are FOO issues and that her father was self absorbed and neglectful. Even though he had loving acts. In our last argument, my W said I'm not your child, DAAAD!.

Doesn't mean you can't try but put come up with a deadline. How many more months can you give it? What is progress to you? Making out without sex? Sleeping next to her? When do you expect to see it by and be willing to leave with your head held up high knowing you truly gave it your all?

I won't wait months or years. But I do feel more time is needed. I think the level of care is good right now considering. I really want to see what the MC can do. I want to give it a chance.

What you absolutely should not do is push, beg, plead, or coerce her to do anything because it doesn't get results. Focus on yourself. Get an IC for yourself to help you navigate this and a D if that's your only option at the end of your waiting period. Do more for you. You're hurting too. Take care of yourself instead of focusing all of your energy on her. If she will come around naturally, it will be in an environment where she doesn't feel like all of your attention is on her and what she is or is not doing.

Trying. I have IC next week.

do what i want and ill give some affection and dont do what i want and ill withdraw emotionally = emotional blackmail. from a ws, this kind of behavior is NOT okay.

I would agree but in our marriage she never did. This is recent. And when I mentioned that I feel she does this went we have an argument, she makes sure to separate that she is mad at me for what I said (usually bringing up screwing the AP's in a cutting way) but will still tell me that she loves me. I don't think that is unfair.

if she wants something she should ask for it.

She is asking for time and the right to choose what happens with her body. I can't say I understand fully especially because the dynamic is muddy. But to me it warrants mor time.

or did you guide om into her?

This is triggery for me and I don't appreciate it. It pissed me off.

possible childhood abuse

It wasn't abuse per se, but in her teens she was fairly sexual. Whether for acceptance or whatever.

With the A's, she felt she was powerful and realizes that she allowed herself to be objectified. Her anger that I objectified her was exactly what she created with these men. I get goosebumps thinking about that.

OwningItNow,

Thank you. That feels like our situation except my W has been clear that she isn't going to D.

That's what concerns me. Being reminded of cheating on a very frequent schedule is one of the natural and probably inevitable consequences of cheating. But she turns them into 'poor me' moments.

Me too. I have been getting better with accepting what I have done and apologizing right away. But it took me a while to get good and consistent with it. I would like to just hear "sorry" right away. It would quell things. But we do the same tit for tat in MC. It would be comical if it weren't so sad. Three or four times the MC has said "look you are doing it again, see..."

I'll take a look at the books. Thanks.

Catch, can you be clear about what exactly counts as coercion in her world? I ask because right now she's saying mentioning sex, too much intimacy, and sleeping next to her are grounds for coercion. When you coerce her is it simply asking her to return to bed or asking her for sex? I'm trying to understand her perspective.

Also, I truly believe your WW is incredibly broken but also that her perspective is entirely warped. If she truly believed that you raped her repeatedly for years, why did she come back to you? Why didn't she go off with one of her OM that she had consensual sex with? It makes no sense for her to stay with someone who makes her feel that way and I think it's evident that she was saying that for other reasons then actually believing it because she did back peddle. And then you ask about her enjoyment and she back peddle again but can't give you an answer about what she likes because that might mean submitting to you or put in her a situation where she can't claim that future sex is akin to rape.

The real question is why she would make these accusations and I think the answer involves power and control over you. This dynamic must be more satisfying to her on some level than a healthy relationship. I have to wonder if she is recreating the dysfunction she is used to but the difference is she is in control now where as she had no control as a child.

Edit: I just read that she did not experience childhood abuse but instead was sexual as a teen. Holy hell, unless she was raped, that is completely normal. Are you sure she doesn't have some sort of mental illness or personality disorder?

[This message edited by nekonamida at 1:16 PM, September 11th (Monday)]

what exactly counts as coercion in her world?

If she says "no", I get angry and frustrated. Detach maybe. Lately, I could bring up the affairs or AP's.

Even when I was threatening D in the MC session I was asking for some give as a sign of good faith. I just back off hoping that just maybe it will get better. That if I wait just a bit longer, that is what is needed. Because it isn't "bad". It is just not "great". There are times when I am sitting close and think "this is good". But the decimation of trust always comes back.

When you coerce her is it simply asking her to return to bed or asking her for sex?

Right now I want her in bed. The next on the list would be sex. So those two are pretty closely linked.

This dynamic must be more satisfying to her on some level than a healthy relationship.

I agree. I am hoping that MC will help.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 2:26 PM, September 11th (Monday)]

Catch you really do seem to be in a never ending loop: you are hurt and triggery, yet you want intimacy. Your wife seems to be subtly shifting the blame to you by denying sex and claiming your objectification was a major factor in her choice to cheat. It's you argue, she withholds, you get pissed, you argue, she withholds, you get pissed...

You two seem to be in some fucked up Mexican standoff. Someone needs to lower their pistol and trust the other one to not shoot them.

You two seem to be in some fucked up Mexican standoff. Someone needs to lower their pistol and trust the other one to not shoot them.

lol, too true

i didnt mean to trigger you. im sorry i did.

Thanks william

you got shot and you also got a burn on your hand.

When is the MC going to address the affairs, the gun shot that is life threatening rather than the burn on the hand?

She murdered your old marriage to the ground with all of her affairs. she wants time alone.

will she answer that she has stopped all contact with all of her APs?

How would she feel if you had several affairs?

Would your controlling actions be addressed first or all of the affairs she has and is having. She wants all this alone time.

how do you know that she does not sneak in her AP downstairs and or text with him all night long?

She is not doing her part to make any R work.

you can not fix this by yourself.

She wants to have an open marriage, and get sex for her, but none for you.

She does not want sex with you. So would she mind since she had all these affairs and does not want you, that you have several APs?

That would help with your desire for closeness.

And you would not be bothering her for sex.

just have her let you have affairs like she did.

her affairs did not seem like to her that an A is any big deal.

She gave sex to the OM's over and over. She does not want you, so it should be no big deal to her to let you get your needs met somewhere else.

She did and is probably getting her needs met while she tortures you with her affairs.

She does not want the marriage. Hope you talk to the MC before hand and that her position is a divorce position.

She is not doing anything to help you heal.

She wants her alone time with the OMs.

She does not want you, but wants other men.

She makes it very clear.

Your doctor was right. If you want any piece get rid of your pain.

Get your cheating, still cheating wife out of your life.

She is gloating about how she is doing her cheating, she gets sex with her OM's and you get nothing.

Does not sound like any marriage to me.

You are in a false R.

Good luck to you.

I do wish you happiness.

[This message edited by harrybrown at 4:31 PM, September 11th (Monday)]

harrybrown

We have discussed the affair with the MC. We are still in the intial/entry phase. We are learning to discuss the affairs in a controlled way. Discussing setting up times and methods/procedural. But we are just in the intial stages.

My wife claims NC. New phone numbers. AP's were out of state and no trips out of state are planned. It is possible that AP's could make a drive, but my W has made comments about staying off Facebook because AP#1 would likely try to break NC. AP#2 was probably married and stopped contact a long time ago. AP#4 was local and could meet. But AP#4's OBF showed up and police were involved. There is a swore statement of NC as of a month ago. Best that I have. Future can always bring new surprises.

My W was pissed to think that I could be dating or sleeping with someone. She has mentioned me dating someone in a distressed angry way when we have been in an argument. So I think she has thought about it. I will state it again with your later question, but she doesn't not want me. She wanted more, at least with Phase 2.

I am not sure what her plan is with R. I can't fully understand it but I do believe her (that does fluctuate on days I trigger and I will be posting on those days ) when she says she wants to do everything right so that we salvage our marriage. That this is the last chance and she wants to be married to me (exclusive).

I don't know how she feels about sex. Right now with her plugged ears (I feel stress related) and the shame of the neighbourhood and her family finding out, I think she is probably pretty depressed and down on sex in general. She knows that we will share a bed at some point, because that is normal in a marriage (her words).

She is trying to help me heal. But not in a way I feel I need or would like. It does lean toward the "not getting it" side. But again there is a lot of emotional stress.

She didn't want me. Then realized it was a "mistake". Then had more affairs because that is how you fix a marriage. But the later affairs were about wanting more than me. It wasn't a "rejection" of me. Definitely warped.

I don't see any evidence that she is reveling or gloating.

It is a pretty shitty marriage situation for sure.

If I am in false R, then my kids will bear the brunt of it. I will be OK. But I sure hope not and I need to choose. I choose to believe that my W has changed and I will act like that is true (as much as I can), until it isn't.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 5:09 PM, September 11th (Monday)]

are you both aware of each others love languages? Are you aware of what your wife needs to have to feel loved? and her with you?

Sorry, missed this.

I believe my wife is mostly words of affirmation and gifts.

So I like cards that I'll write in, flowers.

I throw in acts of service like cleaning up the kitchen after she cooks dinner and vacuuming here and there. I think she notices but service doesn't make as big an impact. She saves every card.

I'm touch. Some words of affirmation.

Just touching base. It seems like a wierd day(s).

I've basically been non-confrontational but have brought up 2 issues. I mention that because I've really been trying to settle the situation/rugsweep for now to allow MC a chance.

I had a session with my CSAT and we discussed my divorce ultimatum and we worked on coping skills and techniques that attempt to rewire my brain. I think it has been helpful.

What I don't get is that my W seems to be more distant over the last couple of days but still expresses that she loves me, etc.

I know there are probably two options. She continued an affair, or the impact is starting to settle in. Is the distance a female type response that makes sense if she is digging into her "whys"? Could it be a softening and leaning toward putting down her "weapons"? She is really tired lately. Having a nap in the day, went to bed early last night. I don't know if she stays up texting late into the night or if it is emotional exhaustion. I know all the things that could be said. I just don't know if they would be correct.

We see MC on Friday.

My CSAT has advised me to work on being kind and not getting mad, and then waiting. To wait for my W to move close without making her feel rushed. My CSAT keeps reminding me that 17 years caused a lot of hurt. She is pretty good with reconizing my body language. Best that I've seen. So I figure she watched my W closely at the combined session we had.

Minutes seem like days, days seem like months, and months seem like years.

Bump for Frankiesbeads