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Thanks for the replies.

I want to see where this MC goes.

I don't think my W is in anything currently.

Our marriage was so sexually focused that I wonder if this is something it needs to change that.

The other option is everyone is exactly right.

I need some time to figure out which way to go.

The last couple of months have been good. Just no intimacy.

I am going to see where MC goes.

I appreciate thoughts and perspectives.

At the risk of sounding snarky, I have to ask you're okay with this situation? Really????

She wronged you by straying (I'm assuming multiple times?) and now has the right to make demands on what your marriage should look like?

<looks around quizickly for the prank cameras>

If she wants all the benefits of marriage, she needs to do damage control immediately. I get that no one is happy in a sexually conflicted marriage, but my god man she went out and slept with other men instead of you.

I was on the other side of that equation and looking back I'm glad because he likely never "kept it in his pants" so perhaps I was spared some lovely STDs.

There's a book I've heard tons about but haven't ready. No more Mr. Nice Guy. I think you should read it.

Picture the man yout MC wants you to be. Consider his calm dispassionate demeanor. His steadfastness. He is....the safest man alive.

Now consider how many romance novels or movies written by women for women star the safest man alive in the romantic lead.

Friend-zoned in your own marriage? No thanks.

Waywards are selfish. Once you realize you are paired with a wayward you need to be selfish in response. For her, it's all about her needs. Unless and until she does the individual work to become a former wayward she will remain selfish. Which means you need to be selfish, too, or she will use you.

Tell her what you want. Expect her to deliver. As her what she wants. Try to deliver. If your wants and hers differ--divorce her because her infidelity releases you from your covenant.

I have to ask you're okay with this situation? Really????

We had a lot of sex over our marriage. I am willing to wait it out a bit. I'm not going to D over sex yet. It has been a few months. A 90+ abstinence.

I read No More Mr. Nice Guy. It was good. Learning to be assertive. But the Mr. Nice Guys are generally not so nice. I have displayed a lot of the poor qualities described in the book because I have hurts and unmet needs possibly related to my FOO. I am working on that. Working on my control issues is something that I need to do for me.

No one is blaming me for the affairs. My wife is clear that she made the shitty decisions. That she was hurting and picked poorly. She has said that she is sad about how her decisions have affected our family and is sorry for hurting me.

She states that she wants to heal our marriage, but needs to know she has say without me trying to control her. I don't think that is unrealistic. I think her pendulum has swung too far to one side right now. Do I think it is right, no. But the CSAT and MC said to leave it be. So as much as I want to control this, I also want to learn to live with/in it. I can't remember were I heard it but "how do you know you are growing stronger, because there is pain".

I know what you are saying. And maybe I'll regret trying. And maybe I'll find that D is the only way yet. But I want to see if this MC can help first.

You get to decide what is the right path for you. You really are the one that best knows the complete picture.

I guess I missed it, but why is your WW seeing a CSAT? That really changes some things.

Picture the man yout MC wants you to be. Consider his calm dispassionate demeanor.

lol, they keep telling me, "Remember to apologize..."

The want us to be two autonomous people who choose each other. I'm not sure how the wall comes down. She could choose to have sex and still have her wall. At least this isn't invisible, so there is honesty.

I don't know. I really don't understand a lot.

But I figure Circe and Tire Girl really felt the pre-marriage dynamic was significant. And my CSAT and MC are recommending holding a steady course.

I am thankful for the responses. Because I feel she just should come upstairs already. I am trying to figure out a good reason for why she wouldn't.

I guess I missed it, but why is your WW seeing a CSAT? That really changes some things.

After finding out about more A's, the original IC recommended a CSAT.

My W has been exploring the way she was thinking, her choices and the rest.

She was doing that for about 3 or 4 months before we started MC.

You get to decide what is the right path for you. You really are the one that best knows the complete picture.

There is a care, that was missing before. Last month OBS showed up and left notes on our neighbours doors. So there has been a certain amount of shame being dealt with. W has had plugged ears for a few months and feels like crap. It is all a perfect storm.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 3:03 PM, September 9th (Saturday)]

Because I feel she just should come upstairs already. I am trying to figure out a good reason for why she wouldn't.

Honestly, I don't know either. I can't think of a good reason.

Do you just want your WW in your bed sleeping with you? I really don't understand her reluctance there. If you are saying you will wait on the sex why is she resisting sleeping in the same bed? Is she afraid you will seduce her? Not coerce, but seduce? Sleeping in the same bed sex often happens organically. Right now she has all the power. If sex happens, I bet she will feel powerless and I am imagining she is enjoying that feeling of power and control. At your expense.

Circe and Tire Girl really felt the pre-marriage dynamic was significant.

Yes, the dynamic is significant. However, that dynamic doesn't supersede the trauma that you have suffered. Being betrayed is traumatic. You were repeatedly betrayed. You have suffered. Why is she being treated as some fucking fragile flower? You have suffered and are suffering greatly.

And my CSAT and MC are recommending holding a steady course.

Easy for them to say. Bet they are getting some from their SO's.

Your WW has herself in a vicious loop. No matter when, or if, sex happens it will be because she feels that you expect to have sex with her. I don't feel that is unreasonable to expect to have sex with your spouse. Isn't that the deal we made? How is the MC and CSAT working with her to break that loop? You have backed off on ODS. It has been months. How long are they saying this will continue with her? Six more months? A year? Two to five years? What are they telling you what their long term plan is and what they are hoping to achieve with whatever they are supposedly doing with you two? I feel I would want both the MC and the CSAT to explain the plan and goal to both you and your wife and how they hope to get there. And some kind of a fucking timeline, too, would be nice.

I am sorry, Catch44, I am pissed off about your situation.

ETA: I am pissed because I feel that your MC and the CSAT are viewing your WW as a victim and are forgetting that you are a victim. In fact, you are the one that is probably bleeding out. But, suck it up, you were an asshole, this is what you get. No! I get the sexual dynamic was unhealthy in your marriage, but putting your WW in charge of this "healing" and letting her call all the shots is ridiculous in my opinion. It sounds like that is what the MC and CSAT are doing. Letting WW call the shots and they are following her lead. No, just no! I don't feel she is healthy enough to be leading anything, let alone your marriage.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:29 PM, September 9th (Saturday)]

Last month OBS showed up and left notes on our neighbours doors. So there has been a certain amount of shame being dealt with

I hope you and your WW did the same in OM's neighborhood. Consequences and shame are necessary and maybe good, but your WW shouldn't suffer the burden alone. It took two, and it's important that consequences are shared--both in how you see your WW and how she sees herself.

I think when you step up more--draw firm boundaries with her and stand up for what's right in your R and in reconciling after this A, your R will start clicking along again.

Best wishes.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:28 PM, September 9th (Saturday)]

I get that everyone's path to the decision to stay or leave is highly personal. Some folks need to try and accomplish all the things their WS complain about, including weight loss. I can respect that path because I walked it. I didn't want to leave until I could say with a clear conscious I tried everything (which I did, but that doesn't work with a NPD).

Your relationship just screams inequality. You are waiting for her to move towards you by jumping through loop after loop. That's honestly how it seems. That's not, in my opinion, how marriage actually works. Both partners must takes steps towards each other at the same time. No one can say, well I MIGHT start moving toward you if you do x,y, and z.

If she has CSA issues, that's a lifetime of agony for you depending on the severity and her willingness to work on herself. That's compartmentalizatin that makes the average WS look like a toddler.

IDK, there's just something REALLY off about what you describe.

Catch44,

Your ww asked you not to post. What was her stated rationale?

She states that she wants to heal our marriage, but needs to know she has say without me trying to control her.

What would that look like and sound like to her?

There is no control involved when one partner says, 'Sex is part of M. If sex is out (when you're not physically disabled), then the M is done.' That gives the other partner a free choice between sex with you and D - a free choice.

I'm wondering if she's trying to control you and using the tactic of accusing you of the 'crime' she's guilty of. Does she give a clear reason for sleeping downstairs? For refusing sex? If not, she may be using her body to control you.

To be explicit, trying to avoid being controlled is simply not a clear reason for doing anything.

I'm not sure your requirements are complete enough. They seem focused on preventing another A. You also need requirements that build a new M. Honesty is critical, and I don't think she's being honest with you.

You can become authentic, whether she does or not. You do that by being honest with yourself and with other people.

There is no control involved when one partner says, 'Sex is part of M. If sex is out (when you're not physically disabled), then the M is done.' That gives the other partner a free choice between sex with you and D - a free choice.

I posted about this very dynamic awhile back---that the person issuing the ultimatum thinks this kind of statement is not controlling, and is a free choice, while the person hearing it of course thinks it is, and certainly is NOT---and if they give in then it's (IMO) most often out of compliance than out of true desire to do ___.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 1:10 PM, September 10th (Sunday)]

Trying to do this on my phone. Sorry that it will be more fragmented than usual.

Yes, right now I just want her in bed. I want to feel a closeness.

Yes I believe my W is worried that once in bed I will try to coerce. I said I can't promise there won't be times but she always had downstairs as a time out if needed.

I feel that the cycle of abuse that she talks about is basically the same as a roller coaster of infidelity trauma.

She called my going into her room in the morning the last weekend abusive to the MC. She feels it is controlling and it is.

I wanted her to say I invaded her space and be done. Because she wasn't coming closer, I wanted to know if she would go further away. She didn't but she wasn't happy. She wants to see that I can not do things like that. But I feel I am hurt beyond hurt and don't know what else would be expected.

My W would prefer that I don't post and get 3rd party uncertified/trained opinions. She has seen a lot of opinions that she just feels aren't valid and doesn't want me to leave our marriage based on any of those. The "you did this with the AP so you have to do it with me regardless" types of opinions freak her out. She feels that you are all getting one side and that there can be a bias. But won't post because she prefers the trained counsellor opinions.

Will be back with part 2.

The "you did this with the AP so you have to do it with me regardless" types of opinions freak her out.

I can understand that and I am appalled at those responses, also.

She feels that you are all getting one side and that there can be a bias. But won't post because she prefers the trained counsellor opinions.

Of course, we aren't hearing her side. I can understand we are only seeing it from your side. However, I feel you are being quite honest and are owning your "shit". But, I have to add, there are many, many fantastically shitty counsellors out there. You can not just give them "blind trust" as they are fallible, too. They are human. They aren't all knowing. I can not emphasize the vast quanties of shitty advice that members have received from trained therapists and counsellors.

Catch44, I did not say you would coerce your WW into sex. Coercing is what you need to change. What I said is seduce. Seducing is something different.

Waiting for part 2.

I hope you and your WW did the same in OM's neighborhood. Consequences and shame are necessary and maybe good, but your WW shouldn't suffer the burden alone

We were pissed that OBS got our kids involved by doing this. We had the police involved and it won't happen again.

AP was a month from his wedding day when I told the OBS. They are much younger (15+), no kids. So the effect on them would be negligible.

both in how you see your WW and how she sees herself.

I told my W that the AP had an obligation to his fiancé. That the OBS/OBF needs to put the bulk of the blame on the AP. I think it made sense to my W. There is still a lot of shame and sadness about the havoc that her actions caused. And she accepts that blame. That was about a month ago. I think it is still eating away at W.

I think when you step up more--draw firm boundaries with her and stand up for what's right in your R and in reconciling after this A, your R will start clicking along again.

MC figures we are still in crisis mode. So he seems to be working on de-escalating and improving communication and the emotional connection.

I didn't want to leave until I could say with a clear conscious I tried everything (which I did, but that doesn't work with a NPD).

Me too. I don't think my W has a personality disorder. I do believe in the hurt and bad choices/coping. If not, then there is more lost in the aspects of a faith/religious perspective I believed she had/has and how her life outlook will affect our kids.

Your relationship just screams inequality. You are waiting for her to move towards you by jumping through loop after loop.

Something is off. But I don't know what. At the same time, there is a kindness and sweetness that is there that hasn't been. With the first round of AP's, it was exit related. W was leaving and planning a new life. The second "phase" is harder to explain. My IC and MC both believe it was about power.

My W has gone through abuse counselling and a women's group. The pendulum has swung hugely to one side.

But W said she wasn't going to hold my hand because it was intimate and she felt it would lead to sex. For a long time. Last night we were holding hands and her second hand came across onto my to stroke it. If she is pretending, then why little things like that?

So I want to explore the MC and improvements in communication a bit more. I just cycle with the triggers and the frustration of the sleeping arrangements and sex because there is so much more closeness involved.

What would that look like and sound like to her?

She would like to see me allow her to come to me organically. She has said during an argument that she has been falling back in love with me but then I mention the affairs and it hurts her (paraphrased) and she backs up. I see it a bit as a punishment since I still trigger daily. I believe it is also like anyone, you hate having your shortcomings shown to you. We are going to be working on our communication styles and the MC is going to regulate how we discuss the A's but wants us to stop talking about it right now (de-escalation).

I'm wondering if she's trying to control you and using the tactic of accusing you of the 'crime' she's guilty of. Does she give a clear reason for sleeping downstairs? For refusing sex? If not, she may be using her body to control you.

I believe it is a struggle for power in a sense but an attempt to find an equilibrium where we are equals. It was on my side, it is now on her side and should find a middle ground assuming things are "normal".

Catch44, I did not say you would coerce your WW into sex. Coercing is what you need to change. What I said is seduce. Seducing is something different.

I believe feeling loved is getting my W there. I believe she wants to be different and she says that for 15 years she was true, so she can do it. She can choose to do it. I am grabbing at closeness and my feelings are big and fluctuate. The waves are getting smaller. But I have my FOO and I will default to coercion when I am emotionally tapped out. My coercion has been to bring up the affairs. I'm still a work in progress.

I appreciate the feedback and the ability to ooze out my feeling everywhere (vent).

I only have one point (which is not actually true, I have many, but am only posting one), maybe not so much for you, but for others who may need to read this. I was taught, in fact had shoved down my throat, if you have a certain belief system I shall not name, that divorce of any sort is wrong. Period. end of discussion.

That's simply not a true teaching at all. God does not desire that anyone be abused (which I was). That is not the way it works. That belief system is so wrong. If that partner is a true practioneer, they would not be behaving in such abusive ways (from infidelity to emotional abuse) - you are unequally yoked.

I wasted twenty five years of my life on that lie. I did it all too - so many books, practices, etc. whatever and my life now is more honest and truthful then that ever was. In fact a well known and respected leader was the one who told me I needed to leave for my own life and sanity.

That's wrong if that's the only reason you are where you are and you are actively being abused.

What does the future hold for me in this arena? I have no idea, but I know my life reflects more of what I believe now then then ever before.

wayward here...

i'm late into this as this whole thread has given me massive anxiety.

i know its cliched but someone mentioned it about a thousand pages ago, but are you both aware of each others love languages? Are you aware of what your wife needs to have to feel loved? and her with you?

i have the slightly higher libido in my marriage (so i have never experienced what you have written about) but i can see why your wife would struggle with moving towards any type of intimacy because of the 17 (did you say 17????) years of demands for sex from you - thats going to take quite a while to get over i would have thought - but equally (as many have said) she has to do the hard yards with the infidelity first to help you both get over that...and then you work on your marriage issues - and boy is that going to be hard related to the sex.

can you get yourself to a point where it isn't so important - seriously the overwhelming sense i get from you is your need/want of sex - can i suggest a spot of masturbation?

name calling - others have (or seem to) say its no big deal, i think it is, right after D Day a bit of name calling is probably inevitable and manageable - but years and years of it - soul destroying....

My W would prefer that I don't post and get 3rd party uncertified/trained opinions. She has seen a lot of opinions that she just feels aren't valid and doesn't want me to leave our marriage based on any of those.

I think that those posts are shitty too but this is highly controlling. This is a support site and you have made it clear that you do not agree with those posts. She isn't entitled to controlling your healing and who you reach out to just because some of it is something she doesn't agree with.

Catch, your MC and her CSAT have identified that your WW has an issue with power. Have you ever thought that stemming from that is also an issue with control? She controls what you can talk about, with whom you can speak to, and she has created a massive power dynamic in which she is the gatekeeper to physical intimacy. Sex aside that includes many other forms of intimacy, passion, kissing, cuddling even, that you have been cut off from. So how is her dictating all of these terms any different from the power she got from the As?

Here's the rub - she may genuinely be a very broken person due to abuse. That much is clear but her coping mechanism is to manipulate and control. That may be the only way she knows how to cope, feel safe, and get what she wants. The counselors you both see many genuinely be capable of helping her but you are looking at years of therapy banking on the chance that you will see her return to your bed. She may not be capable of that. She may always see you as an abuser and insist on controlling and gatekeeping intimacy. And even if she does, that doesn't mean that you can properly heal from her As because everyone, your WW and the counselors, are advocating rugsweeping. If you rugsweep for months or even years, she will not have any reason to change and it sounds like you will get zero support in therapy.

This sounds like it has a very small chance of ever being a safe and healthy marriage for you. Doesn't mean you can't try but put come up with a deadline. How many more months can you give it? What is progress to you? Making out without sex? Sleeping next to her? When do you expect to see it by and be willing to leave with your head held up high knowing you truly gave it your all?

What you absolutely should not do is push, beg, plead, or coerce her to do anything because it doesn't get results. Focus on yourself. Get an IC for yourself to help you navigate this and a D if that's your only option at the end of your waiting period. Do more for you. You're hurting too. Take care of yourself instead of focusing all of your energy on her. If she will come around naturally, it will be in an environment where she doesn't feel like all of your attention is on her and what she is or is not doing.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 1:24 AM, September 11th (Monday)]

it sounds like your wife wants the marriage but on her terms. the holding and stroking of your hand, etc is to keep you invested. its enough to keep

a connection and feel close. thats her goal with these types of things.

the lack of sex is her trump card to make you submit to "her way" and she uses it as a club to bash you. shes fighting for "control", top dog spot, and shes using dirty tactics.

mention her affair and she pulls back. whack with a newspaper.

come talk to her in "her room" and its an invasion (ask poland if they would classify that as an invasion or her being an idiot because she doesnt comprehend thats words have meaning) coming into your wifes room, sitting on the bed, and talking to her is NOT an "invasion". it is weaponizing words, hyberbole, and a whack with the newspaper.

each time you dont do what she wants you get smacked with the rolled up newspaper. shes training you.

i "might" think this is ok for a bs post d-day (trying to affect change in their wandering spouse) but definitely not long term. this is quasi mentally abusive - do what i want and ill give some affection and dont do what i want and ill withdraw emotionally = emotional blackmail. from a ws, this kind of behavior is NOT okay.

never negotiate with terrorists or blackmailers. definitely dont submit to it or them. ever.

if she wants something she should ask for it. if she feels you cant or wont be able to fullfill it she can leave, everyone married has that right. but to emotionally blackmail you is just as outrageous as cheating on you.

your mc is peddling the stockholm syndrom as therapy to you. dont brin up things she doesnt like and you wont get whacked. do exactly as she wants and you might get laid.

too controlling? really? after she had an affair? her having an affair disproves that whole point. or did you guide om into her? if not then she had the power to destroy your marriage. wasnt it "dune" that said the person with the ability to destroy something and the willingness to do so is the one that ultimately controls something? shes already in control and has been. she just wants that control to be aknowledged and then ratified and codiciled.

you are more invested in the m than her and she only wants the m if its on her terms and she dictates. whos in control?

you know what - no disrespect but fuck her and fuck that mc too. you can do better than them. fire them both.

[This message edited by william at 1:54 AM, September 11th (Monday)]

it sounds like your wife wants the marriage but on her terms. the holding and stroking of your hand, etc is to keep you invested. its enough to keep

a connection and feel close. thats her goal with these types of things.

the lack of sex is her trump card to make you submit to "her way" and she uses it as a club to bash you. shes fighting for "control", top dog spot, and shes using dirty tactics.

mention her affair and she pulls back. whack with a newspaper.

come talk to her in "her room" and its an invasion (ask poland if they would classify that as an invasion or her being an idiot because she doesnt comprehend thats words have meaning) coming into your wifes room, sitting on the bed, and talking to her is NOT an "invasion". it is weaponizing words, hyberbole, and a whack with the newspaper.

each time you dont do what she wants you get smacked with the rolled up newspaper. shes training you.

i "might" think this is ok for a bs post d-day (trying to affect change in their wandering spouse) but definitely not long term. this is quasi mentally abusive - do what i want and ill give some affection and dont do what i want and ill withdraw emotionally = emotional blackmail. from a ws, this kind of behavior is NOT okay.

never negotiate with terrorists or blackmailers. definitely dont submit to it or them. ever.

if she wants something she should ask for it. if she feels you cant or wont be able to fullfill it she can leave, everyone married has that right. but to emotionally blackmail you is just as outrageous as cheating on you.

your mc is peddling the stockholm syndrom as therapy to you. dont brin up things she doesnt like and you wont get whacked. do exactly as she wants and you might get laid.

too controlling? really? after she had an affair? her having an affair disproves that whole point. or did you guide om into her? if not then she had the power to destroy your marriage. wasnt it "dune" that said tje person with the ability to destroy something and the willingness to do so the one that controls something?

you are more invested in the m than her and she only wants the m if its on her terms and she dictates. whos in control?

you know what - no disrespect but fuck her and fuck that mc too. you can do better than them. fire them both.