SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've been adamantly following your tragedy for a while now and cannot fathom the depth of pain you are going through right now. You are an exceptionally strong individual who operates by a code of honor that your WW cannot understand nor appreciate. You have received excellent advice from many seasoned vets who have sadly seen it all and you seem to be gaining strength which is commendable; hopefully you can complete detachment sooner rather than later and release the outcome of the M to focus on yourself (this does not mean S/D/R or even limbo, it merely means the focus is shifted ENTIRELY to YOU).

One thing that has been pervasive throughout this thread is a notion of self-worth that I feel many BS’s struggle with unbeknownst to them. Some maintain untarnished self-esteem while others take it as a critical blow to their self-esteem, but self-worth is something vastly different and much more imperative. The difference between the two is glaring; self-worth is viewing yourself as a prize and knowing this through and through. Self-esteem is merely feeling good about yourself. All too often we place self-esteem in successes and failures rather than skills and abilities which is why it falters so deeply when our partners decide to do the unthinkable. Self-worth is typically placed in the wrong venues as well; I’d wager the vast majority of us have placed our perceived self-worth in our job, our car, our lifestyle, our partner, our marriage or other factors we have ABSOLUTELY NO control over. What happens when you lose one of these containers of self-worth: your family business fails or is sold, you crash your new Benz, your partner cheats or even decides to leave the honorable way? You have lost a part of your self-worth at this point and for every part that is lost we are more and more paralyzed by inaction until anger kicks in and drives us to action. The only solution to this is to open these containers, draw that self-worth back into yourself and assess the whole to realize you are beyond worthy, you are the fucking prize.

The most empowering feeling in the world is strong self-worth, I hope you can find it in you to assess your own value and realize you are the prize. In the meantime I’ll continue to beat the same drum as everyone else who is in your corner with this last piece of advice. Affairs are almost exclusively about power and control. Knowledge is power. Do not give her knowledge, go dark. If she ever begins to treat you CONSISTENTLY like the prize, then and only then can/should you give her ANY knowledge (and measured in small emotional infant teaspoons for the emotional infant she is).

Best wishes brother, stay strong, you are worthy.

saveus

sometimes in these situations you need to save yourself first.

then you can focus on your son next.

I know you feel like a failure about your finances.

Stop doing that to yourself. I lost my business after 911. It has taken a decade to get a lot of the debt taken care of.

Time is on your side.

Use it well and get her out of your life. She has no value to you at this time.

HM

Saveus. Please let us know you are ok and all. Just worried about you.

Thanks for your concern & latest advice people... I am OK, just needed/need a bit of time out. Will update you soon. Thanks for thinking of me.

Right, summoning my energies... I must confess I needed some time away to gather my thoughts, after much tough love (needed) and suggestions of standing up for myself by smashing phones/throwing my WW's stuff out the front door etc. All stuff that goes against the grain, not to mention my solicitor's firm advice. I needed some time to analyse whether I am being a pathetic doormat or whether I believe what I am doing is right.

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@craig2001: Thanks for the encouragement. There was no conversation that night. No, as of two days ago she would deny the A was ongoing but her texts would say something else. Maybe not physical but plenty of contact. I did go to our son's club. However, between work and there I stopped and called my wife. I was seriously contemplating heading home instead. My thinking being, what was there to gain? Why should I put myself through all that again when even if I stand between my WW and her AP I can't do that 24/7. She didn't really understand - in fact, she thought I must have somewhere else to be (that paranoia/lack of trust in ME rising to the surface again). We had a calm conversation. I decided to go as I didn't want to let my boy down. I always go. The OM never showed.

@allatsea: I am TOTALLY listening to this message and have already discussed this with my solicitor. Thanks.

@LifeisCrazy: With respect (and a couple of days' time out, combined with legal advice and my initial gut reaction), I have no intention of smashing anything. Nor do I intend on deliberately putting my son inbetween my WW and I. No way.

@tushnurse: I am trying my best not to engage any more. It is very, very hard, but I'm doing OK.

@craig2001 (again): Thanks for the advice. Glad to see I'm not alone thinking any kind of violence from me will do me no favours in the long run. Even short term - a very hollow victory. The joint a/c has been empty for days. Wish I'd thought of it sooner. Not that there was much in there to start with - but it's started having an effect. I've told my WW exactly why it's now empty. She hasn't dared argue.

Thanks for reminding me there is always someone worse off than me. I do try to think this regularly anyway, but this was a timely reminder. And so, so true.

@IWantDoOver: Very insightful post. Thank you. Especially about the finances. You are absolutely right. We did talk about this prior to all this A nightmare (or should I now say, between A1 and A2). I am disengaging and detaching, as best I can.

@Red Sox Nation: More great advice and a fresh perspective. You're right about thinking as I was - and I no longer am. I'm not feeling sorry for myself. I was just particular stressed a couple of days ago.

@jb3199: Point about not hitting that breaking point BEFORE getting out of infidelity absolutely taken on board.

@mountainmomma: The next night I had the best sleep in four weeks. Last night wasn't bad either. I'm trying to look after myself.

@Mercilesslynuked: Thank you for your input. Much appreciated. I have re-read your comments on self-esteem and self-worth, and I am trying to apply them to my situation. Very, very helpful insight. Thank you again.

@happyman64: I know I shouldn't beat myself up about my finances. I've made mistakes but it certainly hasn't been for want of trying. And I know my time will come again. Sorry to hear about your own troubles.

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To anyone I've not addressed directly: a big THANK YOU. I've read every comment and taken them all on board.

So, what's happened in the last couple of days? Well, I mentioned the OM not showing at my son's club on Tuesday. Wednesday morning (it must have been) I read a couple of new texts from the OM. The same old sick-enducing guff about how much he loves my WW, plus a mention of going somewhere (I assume) with my WW and all the kids at the weekend (the weather is looking good). No reply from her.

Wednesday is my WW's day off. I have been going to work like usual this week. I have switched off, not worrying about where my WW might be. I had a couple of texts from her yesterday morning along the lines of...

'Let me know YOU are ok please!! I promise to sort this [+ 2 x blowing a kiss smileys]'

'I've been sat here all morning feeling physically unwell. I know I have to sort this mess today! For us and for the sake of [our DS] and our family!'

To which I replied, 'You're right, you do'.

When I got home that evening I knew she'd seen him again. After we put our boy to bed, she told me she'd gone to see him (at his house!!!!!) and finished it. He was upset and said he never wants to see her again.

Don't worry, I am EXTREMELY sceptical. Frankly I don't believe a word of it. I kept my cool, didn't say a word for a good five minutes (which freaked her out), then kept it to a minimum. But I made it clear I didn't know what she expected from me, that I didn't believe for a second that was it, she'd forget all about him from that moment on. She explained her decision by saying she'd been looking around our house, at old photos on the computer, at our boy asleep in his bed etc etc, and finally realised what she'd be losing.

I didn't buy much of it at all.

I KNOW she is a liar, there is no denying that. I did say I might have 0.0000001% more respect for her IF I believed she had chosen us (and I have made it clear it is going to be no picnic even IF I decide we can try to R) over her AP and his Mills & Boon/teenage poetry 'romantic' texts ('did I ever tell you that [WW's name] is my most favourite name ever???' - pass me the bucket ). The problem is I don't believe she has, and I fully expect her to lie to me again. I fully expect to find out she has broken NC. At that point I might finally cross that line.

[This message edited by saveus at 10:21 AM, May 15th (Thursday)]

Devils advocate

After we put our boy to bed, she told me she'd gone to see him (at his house!!!!!) and finished it. He was upset and said he never wants to see her again.

If she told you this unprompted, it could be a good sign. However, this

I didn't buy much of it at all.

I KNOW she is a liar, there is no denying that

is absolutely the right attitude to have.

Actions(over a long period) not words.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks 5454real. I told her exactly that too, about ACTIONS over a LONG, LONG period of time... Not sure she gets it, in which case we won't even embark on R, trust me.

"I know I have to sort this mess out today." Damn. Apparently she can work miracle cures. Or at least thinks she can. This mess took more than a day to develop and will certainly take more than a day to resolve.

Good,work, Steve McQueen - the king of cool. Silence is a great response to her, isn't it? I'm glad you are getting your expectations in line with your reality.

She's the one who has to show remorse by actions. Simply wanting back into the comfort zone isn't remorse. Regret isn't remorse, either. Read the healing library again to get instruction on the difference. Nothing you posted indicates remorse so far. At least none towards you. She's very sorry for herself, of course, but that won't solve any problems.

Well it appears the winds of change have blown, and cleared up the fog a bit. Your cautious approach to this is very very smart.

I would urge you to sit down and really figure out what you need and want if you are to actually R. Write it out. Think about it, do this over a couple of days, while continuing to 180.

Then sit her down, preferably Sunday evening after the boy is in bed, and lay it all out. Explain the detachment is to help you heal, and focus on yourself, not giving her the silent treatment, just that your trust in her is so broken, you can't believe anything, so you choose not to hear new lies.

Give her the "Rules" of R, your requirements, and tell her she can choose to do them, or not. But if not then she needs to go. If she does then you still have the right to add and change them, and that you will wait for actions to prove change and stay withdrawn until new consistent behavior is seen.

Do I think you can R. Sure, but only if she can truly defog. You've chosen not give her any real consequence, so that may make it much more difficult.

((((and strength)))

Very good, sounds like you are feeling much more sure of yourself. Do not let her bring you down.

I fully expect to find out she has broken NC. At that point I might finally cross that line.

Just keep watching the texts and the second she breaks NC, you will know for sure.

A time comes when enough is enough. What makes all of this so difficult is that affairs are like drugs and WSs are like drug addicts or alcoholics. Both of which are very difficult and tiring to deal with.

She looked around and realized what she would be losing. Something about that bothers me. Is it the fact you took all the money out of the joint account that is really what she is losing.

It bothers me because those pictures have always been there. But that is not to see she finally got her head out and realized what her life was.

When you told her a long long time, that is an understatement. Long long doesn't even begin to cover it.

she told me she'd gone to see him (at his house!!!!!) and finished it. He was upset and said he never wants to see her again.

I am really struggling not to project my experience onto yours, Saveus, but it's difficult--the similarities are so strong I feel like I am going through this again, like a ghost of my future at the side of my past self. But if there is a chance I can help, warn, anything: my XW did the same thing. Went to his place, came back and told me she'd ended it with him and that he was very upset.

I relaxed my guard WAY too quickly. What happened was inevitable and predictable, I suppose ( or at least everyone here told me what would follow): she moped around missing him in front of me (almost as humiliating to witness as the affair itself) and broke NC within a few weeks. Didn't see him again right away, but it was only a matter of time. Naturally I blew up in fury at her repeated betrayal, and she seized on my anger to justify her renewing the affair: See? You have "anger issues."

Saveus, be SO CAREFUL. DO NOT LOWER YOUR SHIELD OR WAVER IN ANY WAY. SHE IS ON EXTREMELY THIN ICE. You have no idea how crazy her mind is right now, torn between her two worlds. (I know, that in itself is crazy on so many levels, but there it is.)

It sounds like you're pretty solid in your resolve and thinking, though. Yet maintain a healthy "distrust" of your own Fog, you know? Careful of your emotional attachment. I fell victim to my own in spite of myself and let her continue her bullshit for another few months of hell.

Strength.

she moped around missing him in front of me (almost as humiliating to witness as the affair itself) and broke NC within a few weeks. Didn't see him again right away, but it was only a matter of time.

My Fww did the same thing.

There is many times withdrawal from the affair and or the AP. And it usually shows itself in a depressed mood and sometimes an aloof attitude. Both of which are very annoying.

Like I wrote somewhere, affairs are like drugs or alcohol, and WS's are like drug addicts. They do go through withdrawal. The excitement of the affair and new person is what kept them going. And when it is over, the withdrawal symptoms show up.

And like an alcoholic, if someone offers them a drink...will they drink. Will the OM continue to contact her.

And yes, that is the time when NC is usually broken.

If you see the OM continuing to contact her and she doesnt reply, it very well could be time for you to step in and inform the OM you will seek a legal remedy against his continued harassment.

Good to hear from you saveus

Keep up the distance, the quietness from you to her with little words and not much convo. You do indeed sound like mr MC queen, and her texts to you "fussing" about you seem to confirm this, be aware though she may just be trying harder to keep the 2 bakery shops going (you and OM). Unfortunately for her yours is closed now right!. They really do need to see us strong, as they kind of expect us to be accommodating and see us as weak, cos you know they are the prize after all (in their minds) YOU are the prize here my man. Not some pos cheating other "man"

Everyone is right re the WS and withdrawal, and like abbondad I'm not wanting to project my sitch on to yours, I just want to make you aware of some of the things they do after telling us there is now NC with the AP...... as much as it makes total sense to US that that's what needs to happen, it is unfortunately much like dealing with an addict (the WS)going through a withdrawal.

We SO want to believe them when they say they've ended all contact, alas, it os not always the case, my WS smashed his sim up after calling in front of me one of his AP's telling her he was ending it and coming back to me, he then wrote her a lovely letter telling her to let him know via a note to the flat he was staying in if she moved and to give him her address and phone number so he could contact her if it didn't work out with me-the cheeky bastard. My gut was screaming at me that something was up, I got it out of him, and told him to go be with her if the prostitute meant so much to him!. He then wrote a NC letter and old me to post it, a few days later there was a letter at his flat, he burned it in front of me without even opening it. As far as I can be sure which is never going to be 100% there was no contact since then! but hey she's on a sex worker site so who the fuck knows, but I doubted it. At the end of the day if the Ws is going to cheat again or break NC there is not much we can do to stop it other than enforce hard consequences to try and influence them to see sense and pull their head from their behind.

Remain vigilant re the texts and be aware they may try to remain on contact via other means -a seperate phone apps etc, so just bear this in mind. Your quietness and almost silence speaks FAR louder than trying to get her to talk. Really she should be the one spilling the beans to you, asking for what you need etc.

Have you read the thread that is targeted in just found out called "before you reconcile" I'll try to find it and bump it for you. It's a brilliant read.

Glad you got some sleep, and keep strong, you can do this.

MM

[This message edited by mountainmomma at 3:21 PM, May 15th (Thursday)]

Just bumped that thread and the other one about boundaries and consequences for you

Take care

Thanks again mountainmomma, I'll go check that out now.

How are you doing today saveus? Wishing you strength and peace brother.

Hey, Mercilesslynuked, thanks. I'm fine. Well, as fine as anyone in JFO . Not doing great with the 180 and when passing a few words with my WW, finding I am beating my head against a brick wall. I am staggered at some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth. Even she can't really believe it, surely?????

Glad to see you're sense of humor coming out! It's the little things in life isn't it? As for:

I am staggered at some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth. Even she can't really believe it, surely?????

I think Abbondad and Alastea can weigh in on this one more adequately but I'll say this... The wayward fog is a sad place indeed. Quite possibly the most toxic place imaginable and sadly she most likely DOES believe the words coming out of her mouth. Really really scary. I'm glad you're eyes are wide open though, they're going to serve you marvelously in the coming struggles!

Years later, I recall the same feelings. My ex is an intelligent, thoughtful person, but she had to come up with such a bizarre story to justify her behavior that everything that came out of her mouth with regard to her behavior was like something out of the Twilight Zone.

There was no reasoning with her, and my expectation was that if we simply talked through the bizarre stuff, she'd see how bizarre it was. Never happened. That was a fog that you wouldn't even see in 19th Century London.

She has altered the past. If this were a science fiction novel, she'd be living in an alternate universe where all of this makes perfect sense.

The 180 is designed to help you cope with life while she's going through whatever internal struggles may exist that keep her in one universe or the other.

Right now, she's gone. So you're in this terrible stage (nothing is worse than the first week or so after discovery, but this is close) where you're living with someone who doesn't want to be married to you. Focus on what you need and what your son needs. Don't even think about engaging with her to try and influence whatever it is that is going on in her universe. She doesn't want to hear that you love her. She is only worried that she has to get into some sort of battle to protect her future. So I'd avoid talking to her about solicitors and divorce proceedings, as well.

I was unable to find "before you reconcile" or "boundaries and consequences". I would sure like to read them both. I am looking in Just Found Out. Should I be looking somewhere else?

Ted