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Sorry, it didn't make any sense to me if his wife was so small ;-) It still doesn't ;-) He might be saying that, but it just doesn't ring true with the other things he is saying. I thought maybe he threw that in there more for the other BH's to identify what was "typical", as he speaks in generalizations a lot.

Anyway, I stand corrected. But, RIO - if your wife is very small, I doubt that you have anything to worry about.

Man! It took me a minute to find this thread.

Going way back. I wasn't talking about empathy toward RIO's W. I was talking about general empathy for our fellow humans.

BWs do wonder if the OW was better at the sex. The MOW in my sitch gathered info and went straight for the one thing my fch said I didn't do. That was obviously deliberate on her part. She was going to do whatever she had to do to be better than me.

I didn't take any of that personally. IOW, I didn't question my worth or ability because of what she did. I know my worth, and it's not wrapped up in my fch's opinion of how I perform in the bedroom. I was very upset at what he may have done for her, much like many of you BHes. I didn't get h uh ng up on that only because my fch didn't do anything special.

For another perspective on the women who will jump in bed with the guy they don't care about, but withhold from the guy they do care about, that's another product of female sexual repression and conditioning. I learned very quickly that, if I want to have a chance at a relationship, I had to refrain from sex for a while. Every guy I liked who I had sex with quickly ghosted me right after. So, I learned to protect myself from that by either not caring or not having sex.

I'm sure there's more I wanted to comment on, but I can't remember it all now.

For another perspective on the women who will jump in bed with the guy they don't care about, but withhold from the guy they do care about, that's another product of female sexual repression and conditioning.

And the logical response for a male knowing this is... I'm not saying your wrong, first off, I'm not a woman, but second, your observation appears to match with my own in dating women. But if this is true, what's your typical guys "next move" knowing this? Well, for me, it was "be the guy they don't care about". Or in the case of an A, be the guy who's opinion doesn't matter.

Women and men are both free to do what they like in the dating world, and, if you (not personally, but in general) want to make good guys wait and hop straight into bed with "bad boys" or "guys who aren't relationship material" that's your prerogative. However, it's a bit duplicitous to then wonder where all the "nice guys" are; they're hiding, either out of sight entirely or behind an "asshole mask" (my personal situation) because of this behavior in women. This behavior, while I think you captured it correctly, is not only extremely damaging to relationships but also to male/female interactions in general. It's really sad to watch this particular dance play out, you wind up with broken people on both sides of the dance floor because everyone gets hurt by it. Nice guys become assholes to get what they want, assholes then damage women by using them for sex, and then women withhold sex because they think that's why they are getting abused by men. It's a circle of pain, in many cases, a completely unnecessary one, caused at least in part by the boatload of untruth we stick in (or at least did, when I was a child) male and female children's heads. It's just very sad all the way around.

Sorry, it didn't make any sense to me if his wife was so small ;-) It still doesn't ;-)

I'll agree with the first part, it doesn't make sense. It's an irrational fear/worry, I'll concede that without argument. However, what you said after this, I don't say it only to identify with other BH's, it's "real" for me too and I do think/worry/get sick thinking about it. Honestly, I think even a guy in the 99% for penis size would probably be worried about it, perhaps not if the other guy was bigger, but if the other guy was "more comfortable" for her. No matter how many times I'm told "size doesn't matter" it's very difficult to see that as the "whole truth" around sexual pleasure. Does it matter "a lot"? I don't think it does. But does it matter to some people, do some women find bigger (or smaller) to be a lot more pleasurable? I find it difficult to believe that the answer is "no"; I've certainly found some vaginas to be a better/more pleasurable fit than others, so it hard to believe that same dynamic doesn't apply for women. Now, perhaps here is where the parallel can be drawn, a very tight woman who's a "dead fish" in bed isn't going to be as good a sexual experience for me as a much looser woman who's screaming at me to f her harder, pull her hair and put my finger in her a**. The 2nd is going to be better for me because that's shows engagement, excitement and "letting go" in bed with me, and that's something I really enjoy and look for in a sexual partner. And maybe that's what people mean when they say "size doesn't matter", it's the other things about sex that matter MORE than size. The problem there is though, if we take woman number 2 who's totally into sex and is pushing all my buttons and limits in the bedroom and give her a "better fit" vagina for me, that would be better. And because of that thought in my head, size starts to matter a lot more to me when you put it in context of an affair. You did everything with him, it was forbidden, stolen moments, taboo, in public, exciting, AND he was hung like a horse?? Well, that's one of those "how can I compete with that" kind of thoughts for me, I can never bring all those elements together because some of them (the "sleeping with someone new") simply aren't something I can recreate.

I'd never argue it's an entirely rational fear. But it's a fear, it's there, and I think that a whole lot of other men would echo that they've worried about this too in the past, both for relationships and much more so for me personally, coming out of an A.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:13 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)]

But if this is true, what's your typical guys "next move" knowing this?

It depends what you want. If all you want is sex and you don't care one iota about other people, I guess you should try being an asshole. Or, here's an idea. Be a decent person anyway. Stop trying to get something from someone else. Be honest. You may not get sex as often (IDK), but you won't die and people won't think you're an asshole. Lying just to get what you want is not ok.

RIO, other than coming here and talking about sex, what have you done to heal yourself? Sounds like nothing. You won't open up to your W. You won't talk about how you feel. You aren't going to get anywhere that way. Why are you so afraid of hurting your W? Are you afraid she will leave you?

I forgot to address the Menz thread. I know it's not private since it's on the internet. But, BHes specifically seek out other BHes to talk to about their unique issues. Idk, it just doesn't feel right for me to read it. If you guys want to share that with the rest of us, I figured you will in one of these other threads. Since I'm not a CW, I don't need to read it so that I can understand the damage I've done. I guess it's just my way of trying to respect that sfe place for you guys. 🤷‍♀️

If all you want is sex and you don't care one iota about other people, I guess you should try being an asshole.

You take it way too far here. You don't have to "only want sex" to come to this conclusion. If you want to have women want you, it's pretty easy to get here too. And "caring about other people" is really neither here nor there, it's not that I didn't care about them, that's not why I put on the asshole mask. It's that they liked that mask better than the real me; that "guy" was better at building attraction in women. I've used this analogy a few times, but I really saw that mask very similar to my "makeup". No, it's not who I really was, but it made me look "pretty", got me more attention and more sexual options and made me more attractive to the opposite sex. It was no more real than blue eye shadow, but it worked, people responded to it and liked it. Not all, just like there are some men out there who really hate makeup, there are some women out there, no doubt, who ran like hell in the other direction because they hated bad boys. But, by and large, women are more attractive with good makeup, just I was more attractive with a different attitude. Neither were real, but both are logical paths to follow if you want to attract the opposite sex.

RIO, other than coming here and talking about sex, what have you done to heal yourself? Sounds like nothing. You won't open up to your W. You won't talk about how you feel. You aren't going to get anywhere that way. Why are you so afraid of hurting your W? Are you afraid she will leave you?

I don't think that's fair. First off, while I post on this topic often, I post on lots of other topics too. And I PM with some members and share more of my story and personal thoughts, and have done so for years. I've been in IC and MC for years. I'd guess that I've spent 1000's of hours now reading and learning about As and A recovery. So, no, not "nothing" in fact, I'd argue "FAR more than most". To your question about "opening up to my W" and "talking about how I feel", I asked this question in another thread (or maybe it was this one, lost track) about what that actually means. I think I have opened up to her. Nothing that I say here would be a shock to her. She knows that the injury from her A is/was primarily sexual to me. We have a completely different sex life today than we did before. But, that said, I do sometimes feel like I'm missing something in this particular area, so, what is it that you mean when you say this? What does "opening up" look like to you? What would that conversation look like? If you tell me, I'll tell you honestly if this is something I've done or not; when I read statements like this it always raises a flag for me, because I honestly don't know what it is this "looks like" to know if I've done it or not.

RIO, there are loads of people in reverse situations. My current boyfriend? I offered to jump in the sack on the first date. If I like someone and enjoy their company, I'll probably fuck them. It helps me decide if there's chemistry and if I want a second date. Sexual compatibility is very important to me.

But my DBF is sapiosexual and he told me he wanted to get to know me first before we had sex. I waited four dates for him, which is longer than I've been willing to wait for anyone since high school. He was totally worth it and we've been dating over a year now.

But there are many men who aren't just out for a quick lay, and women who are in fact interested in casual sex. The real take home message here is that society's guidelines are what is damaging things, not women and not men. It's the stigmatization of men's and women's sex drives and how people don't feel safe being sexual or choosing not to be, that is really doing the damage.

And as someone who has been around the block many, many times... if you're focusing on cock size, you're doing it wrong. Period. I've slept with men as small as 3.5" and as large as 9.5". Size has almost no effect on sexual ability.

But, RIO, you're not saying anything that shows any care or concern for those other people, only what you could get from them, a feeling of being attractive and sex. You say nothing about wanting a relationship or getting to know those women. It's all, "What can I do to get laid as quickly as possible?"

You even say now that you don't see much point in being friends with women, well, maybe if they're ugly, but only if they like to do what you do.

Since you don't share here anything about IC, MC, or conversations you've had with your W, I think it's unfair for you to expect me to know all of that has happened. I see a broken record. I, as well as others, see you stuck. If you're not actually stuck, then move on.

What is your purpose in all the posts about your general ideas and opinions on sex? It may be hard for you to believe, but you are not the resident expert on any of that.

I've been wondering how old you are (I'm thinking you're little younger than me, but idk why), where, when, and how you grew up that you got these ideas. They are so foreign and bizarre to me.

The real take home message here is that society's guidelines are what is damaging things, not women and not men. It's the stigmatization of men's and women's sex drives and how people don't feel safe being sexual or choosing not to be, that is really doing the damage.

This is definitely true. However, my take home message is, just be honest. If you are looking for a good, lasting relationship, you aren't going to get it by lying. Lying may get you laid more often, but that's it. You aren't going to be liked much. If you just want to get laid, that's fine. But, don't pretend that you care about the other person.

FWIW, my fch was the nice guy. That's why I liked him. He wasn't interested in just getting laid. I wasn't interested in casual sex no matter who or what you were. He stuck around, anyway.

I'm thinking I should probably step away from this. I'm getting fed up and starting to be maybe a little snarky. As usual, not getting anywhere but a bunch of bullshit.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 10:47 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)]

RIO -

I am sorry for dismissing the whole size thing as silly. There have been entire threads that have been made on this and it's bias. I will repeat a few things that came out of the threads, just as a reminder for guys who are worried about this:

First most women do not see their vagina as source of orgasm. It's a small percentage in any study that I have ever seen. The clitoris is the female version of the penis.

Most men for what ever reason, see the vagina as the source of orgasm therefore they think it makes a huge difference of the size of the vessel that is placed inside of it.

Reality - sticking your finger in a vagina, doesn't feel hugely different than a penis. Most of the sensory parts of the vagina, including the g-spot are very shallowly situated. almost all the nerves that provide any sensation stop there, and the gspot is what, like an inch or so deep?

I am not saying P in V intercourse is not pleasurable for a woman, it is. But, only if your pelvis or something else is also providing something for the true MVP at the top.

Penis size is completely overrated, the only women who might disagree are the ones who fall in the minority of the statistics and have orgasms purely from P in V. I have a lot of girlfriends, I only know of one of them who fall in that category, and she said it doesn't matter to her at all. Could there be some mental thing that goes with it? Yeah, I won't dismiss that out of hand. I mean, certainly, I see the quality of my H's erection as something that effects my mentality in the act, so I am sure there might be women who mentally feel it's important (I know zero who do), but from a pure biology standpoint? Nah. Most women are probably way more interested that you know what works for them because we all have different combinations.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:24 AM, October 17th (Thursday)]

I am not saying P in V intercourse is not pleasurable for a woman, it is. But, only if your pelvis or something else is also providing something for the true MVP at the top.

I disagree here. I think P in V is very pleasurable in and of itself without clitoral involvement. For me, orgasm or the potential thereof is not the only pleasure to be had from sex.

DF - I agree with what you are saying. I guess what I am saying is it's just not going to result in climax. But, I agree I can enjoy sex without climax. My point really was, the size of the penis doesn't determine that because the nerves are really shallowly located that cause the pleasure. This was a pointed discussion about whether penis size matters, rather than whether sex can be pleasurable without a goal in mind.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:29 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]

Right, I know. That one line just stood out to me.

I do think female genital anatomy is not always well understood as pertains to the size discussion.