SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Red flags are waving.

Why would she compare your marriage to his?

Why would she assume their marriage is fine?

She's not NC.

You might want to inform her, that it takes three to five years to heal from this bullshit. She is...what? a few weeks out from dday??Sorry, she is not remorseful, at all.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:00 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

Had a fight this morning about her not doing enough. She went hysterical, yelling and crying. Making the whole thing about "society let's men cheat, but when a woman does it she should have known her place!", "I'll wear a red letter A if you want, but then I'll be done", "Nothing happened", "I'll bet OM's marriage is already back to normal". Bullshit and minimizing. Feels like going backwards.

Just one more example of her entitled pridefulness. She is NOT a candidate for reconciliation. Stick a fork in it friend, she's not going to budge.

You should fight her stupid fire with stupid fire.

When she says things like, "Men get away with this."

State, "Also, 60% of marriages end in divorce. 90% when someone cheats. Do we need to follow all of the trends in our marriage or are you going to grow-up?"

I think your goal is to get out infidelity. In order to do that you need to get to R or D. If your goal is R, you have to let her find (all of) her love for you again and recommit 100% to your marriage.

Many posters have written that she needs to find her love for you on her own. You can not force her to do it, or even to adhere to your timetable. If she takes too long to find it and prove it to you (to avoid extended limbo), then you go D. If she disavows her love for you, then you go D. If you decide that you no longer wish to R, then you go D.

In the meantime, fighting with her does not advance you toward your objective. Stay with your strength and a (modified) 180. Tell her when she seems to be on the right path. Be indifferent to her when she goes into a downward phase on the "roller coaster."

The most important issue is the extent of her betrayal/lying. Without that issue resolved, it seems that you are just rearranging the deck chairs while the ship is sinking. On the poly, you could add a question about whether or not NC has been maintained. That issue is definitely related to extent.

Once the issue #1 is resolved, then you can move to issue #2 (the job). If she passes the poly, and is making sufficient progress for you on issue #2, then you could start (in a priority fashion) on all the other debris that clutters up the marriage when it is blown up by infidelity. Perhaps, you both agree at this time to a follow-up poly as a final step before granting reconciliation to verify maintenance of NC. She will then know that there is a trust, but verify, component to achieving R.

I would hope that the path out of infidelity is an honest, good faith attempt by both husband and wife to get back on the same path through life. It should not be viewed upon as a cage match (although some flare ups of emotions on either side are natural). At the end, there will be no winner and loser. Hopefully, there will be two winners. If not, then the exercise will be called for indifference and you will go separate ways.

For the record, 1) she did wrong and cheated/lied and is 100% responsible, 2) she is stubborn and exhibits "pridefulness", and 3) you are both caught up in the roller coaster process of recovery. I really doubt her "pride". I think her actions might be showing/hiding her fear(s), and she is reacting to that fear like a hurt animal, even to the extent of biting you when you come near.

These are just my comments from the sideline. I know that you are the person involved, and you know best what is right for you.

Sending hope, strength, and support.

Had a fight this morning about her not doing enough. She went hysterical, yelling and crying. Making the whole thing about "society let's men cheat, but when a woman does it she should have known her place!", "I'll wear a red letter A if you want, but then I'll be done", "Nothing happened", "I'll bet OM's marriage is already back to normal". Bullshit and minimizing. Feels like going backwards.

This0is0Fine,

Stick to your position and do not waiver. I know that what happened this morning seems discouraging, but I believe that the reason your wife went into meltdown, and started flailing and saying childish, ridiculous things, is that at heart she knows she is wrong, and her position is crumbling. And so she made a heap of provocative statements to try and make you shift from your solid position.

In my view, the best thing you can do is remain exactly where you are. Do not go on the offensive. Do not go on the defensive. Do not reach out, bend, buckle, or fold. Stay exactly as you are.

I think that reality may be dawning on your wife as she realises that you are not kidding, and that she does not have a free pass to crap on you, her affair partner's wife, or anyone else.

And she does not know how to handle that.

So she makes absurd statements about men being allowed to cheat, turns on the waterworks (for sympathy), wearing red letters (which you never asked her to do), saying that nothing happened (after telling you that it was her affair partner that stopped it from going further, not her), and asserting that the other marriage she damaged is all hearts and flowers again (presumably without asking her affair partner's wife how happy she feels when she wakes up every day).

One thing that I have learnt is that these kinds of performances are always an attempt to manipulate the narrative or seize control of a situation by forcing the subject of the tirade to change their position.

Have you ever seen a child in a supermarket screaming its head off because its poor, tired Mom won't buy the desired toy or candy bar? That is what you got this morning.

And we all know that if the Mom is foolish enough to give in for the sake of a quiet life, the kid will learn how to use hysterics to get what it wants, and every supermarket trip will end in something similar.

So what should the Mom do? The answer is "Not give in". "Fine. You can scream yourself hoarse. You are still not having that toy".

In your situation, it means you remain where you are, feet on the ground, not moving in any direction, while your wife rants and raves until the performance burns itself out, and she finds you standing in exactly the same place, unmoved, and unmanipulated.

A useful phrase for attempted situational hijacks like this is, "When you are ready to discuss things rationally, I will be ready to listen to you. As you are not, I am going to walk away and give you a chance to calm down".

It may not look like it, but this is actually progress. Your wife's self-assuredness is deserting her in the face of your resolution.

Do not go to her, ask how she is, or initiate conversation. Let her come to you.

There is nothing wrong in you asserting what you need from her, and what you are asking for is not unreasonable. So stick to your guns, and these melodramatic outbursts will dwindle when your wife sees that they are not working.

You are not buckling; she is. And she should, because after whats she has done, she should be paying attention to you and what you need, not prioritising her own ego/self-worth issues.

Do not be phased by this, This0is0Fine. Your wife made a fool of herself because she knows she does not have a leg to stand on, so she resorted to hysterics.

If she does that again, cease engaging with her. And in particular NEVER engage with anything she says when she is in the middle of one of these childish outbursts, because that is what she wants.

Edited to add: Have you ever seen a person who is confident that they are in the right behave the way your wife did this morning?

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:53 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

Making the whole thing about "society let's men cheat, but when a woman does it she should have known her place!", "I'll wear a red letter A if you want, but then I'll be done", "Nothing happened", "I'll bet OM's marriage is already back to normal". Bullshit and minimizing. Feels like going backwards.

Man oh man oh man. Been there done that, my friend. Almost word for word. We're all so cynical here, but it's still a surprise to see it in black and white over and over again. Nothing new under the sun. Like I said, read Proverbs 30:20.

And yes, you're correct. It's going backwards. I'm afraid you have an unremorseful spouse on your hands.

Big time red flags.

P.S. You just basically triggered me with all of this because this is one aspect of my own WW's behavior and words I somehow haven't tallied up or remembered until now. There's a lot of other shit she said that was worse, so I kind of forgot how many times I heard this crap from her.

"Nothing happened"

She doesn't get it. Everything happened. Regardless of whether sex happened, she stepped outside your marriage and had a boyfriend. She wanted sex, so functionally it's the same thing. It was physical.

So everything happened. She blew up your marriage. That old marriage is dead. She really doesn't get it.

Incidentally it's pretty clear at this point based on newer data and surveys that women are at parity with men on cheating (and let's be honest, they probably always were going back millennia). And even more interesting, women tend to say on anonymous surveys in higher numbers that they would cheat if they thought they could get away with it -- meaning that women are probably UNDERREPORTING their adultery even on anonymous surveys.

50 percent of marriages end in divorce. 75 percent of divorces are initiated by women. I'm no statistician but these two numbers side by side have always interested me.

And the mass media is rife with messages about how empowering it is for women to cheat and how dog-like and reprehensible it is for men to cheat. How many feature articles the past decade have been about how cuckoldry is a hot new "lifestyle" men should embrace and how great polyamory is for women? If you did a Lexis Nexis search I bet you'd be surprised. The New York Times has practically made it a mission to make female-centric polyamory the only acceptable marital status for "enlightened" couples who share the newspaper's politics.

So her bullshit attempt to invoke an "I am woman hear me roar" feminist gambit is pathetic. If you think about it, it's almost like she's trying to accuse you of slut-shaming her which is hilarious on its face.

Women like sex as much as men. For a time (read books like The Manipulated Man) there was a fairy tale that men liked sex more. Not true.

Also, it's interesting to pair this statement of hers with her earlier contention that leaving her mid-level job was going to be soul-crushing. It sounds like she's been ingesting too many off-kilter messages from the wrong sources.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:24 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

No need to worry about her resenting you TIF, based on the ‘red letter’ rant she already does.

I don’t see where you have much to work with here. She’s resentful that she has to answer to you for her actions. She wants a life outside of the marriage and she’s demonstrated it by pursuing the other man. She’s not a safe partner and certainly not marriage material.

I agree with your direction of getting a pre-nup completed. Do it as quickly and calmly as possible because I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re going to need it soon. She values her extra-marriage identity over you. That’s not a recipe for success.

I’m sorry about your situation. Protect yourself and your future. I wish the best for you.

Yes, she seems to be losing her control of the situation.

Sounds like the BF wants nothing to do with her anymore, or maybe it's true that he never really did.

But maybe she is realizing the BF is gone and now good old This0is is not playing the pick me game. She is panicking, has no plan, no clue as to what to do next. Just try and keep your cool and go with your plan without falling into helping with her plan.

I don;t know if it it is a step forward, backward, or sideways but it's a step! You won't get out of this without stepping in some direction. So movement is progress.

Oh and something I learned, when someone is being irrational, telling them that they are being irrational and you will talk to them when they calm down will get you nowhere. It'll just piss them off more.

Saying I'm sorry you feel that way is better. IMO

Don't ask how I know

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 4:46 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

WW's gonna go rent an AirBnB (and presumably fuck OM) to "think things over". Holy shit she is unbelievably cliche. After all the apparent effort and honesty she seems to just be throwing in the damn towel. Probably because I got lied to about the PA being just an EA, probably because my wife has no actual remorse, probably because she doesn't think the POSOM is a POS. Who knows what combination of bullshit is still spinning in her brain. To think we had reached agreement on all this and now she blows up. She is trying to fuck with my head and I won't allow it. Unless she changes her mind PDQ, we are back on the D track. I hope y'all are enjoying the rollercoaster with me.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 2:36 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:03 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

We're not enjoying anything you're going through.

The world is an evil place full of selfish, self deluded people. People fuck each other over every day, and usually it is those who we love most who stab us the deepest.

Look at the bright side. It is just one OM. At least you don't have a WW who's a cum dumpster for half the men in the city you live in...like mine. They pass my WW around like a pack of cigarettes.

I hope y'all are enjoying the rollercoaster with me

Not enjoying it. It's f'ing gutwrenching and I'm choking up for you as I write this.

I am so. very. sorry. that you're going through this.

I've read enough posts from you to know I'd like to have a glass of bourbon with you and a cigar if I knew you in person. You're a solid man.

This stuff levels you. You're going through one of those life events that actually drives you to your knees. You will get through this. You will survive it. Keep coming here and we'll keep giving you the best advice we can.

TIF, you might consider accelerating the post nup and getting a signature, and then getting D papers and separation agreement drawn up and file on her.

I try my darndest to tell people to do that "package of non-negotiables" and I shy away from pushing toward D or R. It's totally your call.

She does not sound remorseful at all.

Moving forward with a D and separation agreement can snap her head back to reality. It takes time and you can always call it off. I'm one to talk, but I'm meeting with a D attorney next week just so I know my options.

In your case, she thinks she can string you along and she's engaging in classic plan A/plan B cake-eating behavior -- and when it's clear you refuse to be her plan B and refuse to dance on a hot plate for her entertainment it may give her the reality check she needs.

I know you have no intention of going along with the pick me dance. Just my two cents.

Holy shit she is unbelievably cliche.

Unfortunately they almost always all are. That's why it's called the cheaters' script.

WW's gonna go rent an AirBnB (and presumably fuck OM) to "think things over". Holy shit she is unbelievably cliche. After all the apparent effort and honesty she seems to just be throwing in the damn towel. Probably because I got lied to about the PA being just an EA, probably because my wife has no actual remorse, probably because she doesn't think the POSOM is a POS. Who knows what combination of bullshit is still spinning in her brain. To think we had reached agreement on all this and now she blows up. She is trying to fuck with my head and I won't allow it. Unless she changes her mind PDQ, we are back on the D track. I hope y'all are enjoying the rollercoaster with me.

Be sure to tell the OBS ASAP. They need to know.

I agree with Thumos. I would give the OBS a heads up that your W may still be in love and missing the AP and that she’s moving to an AB&B for a while. Also, are you expected to stay home and be the responsible parent this weekend why she does what whatever she wants? It’s kind of amazing that as this continues she seems to feel more and more entitled. I’m beginning to think she was simply in self-preservation mode and neve, truly remorseful. Only you are in position to really evaluate that. I’m pulling for you. Satay strong and stay the course.

[This message edited by Unsure2019 at 6:01 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

TIF, what I'm about to write is not a threadjack. It's important but I'm only writing it now bc I'm thinking about it. In your current pain and shock haze, it won't be all that helpful so put it aside for reading later when you can.

I wanted you to read Proverbs 30:20 for a reason. It is a very intentional verse written by wise people that describes the pattern of a WW.

The verse is: "This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, 'I've done nothing wrong.'"

In addition to being a clever double entendre, it also lays out a pattern a betrayed husband should expect and can predict. This is the pattern:

1. She eats (she commits infidelity)

2. She wipes her mouth (she conceals all evidence of the adultery as much as she can)

3. "I've done nothing wrong." (denial, minimization, blameshifting, resentment, pridefulness, entitlement, justification, rewriting the history of the marriage, DARVO'ing you etc).

A man in the 1700s named Joseph Benson wrote about this verse this way:

"So secret and undiscernible is the way of an adulterous woman — Of one that secretly lives in the sin of adultery. As 'artful men insinuate themselves into the affections of young women, and seduce them to their ruin, by an almost infinity of stratagems, which can never be all unravelled,' so also the adulterous wife uses much ingenuity to impose on her husband, to shun detection, and to escape shame and punishment, by schemes and devices which cannot all be enumerated. Every new crime intended, or committed, gives rise to some new artifice; as the ship, in some degree, deviates every time from the course which it steered before. The object of the seducer is to prevail over his prey, and that of the adulteress to conceal her guilt; and the whole extent of their subtlety and ingenuity is employed to effect those purposes."

There's another Proverb you need to know about, Proverbs 25:24 - "Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife."

All useful wisdom, whether you believe in the Bible's divinely-inspired nature or not. These were written thousands of years ago, because there is nothing new under the sun.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:14 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

This0is0Fine,

I am sorry that you are being put through this. The ridiculous thing about it is that the way she has acted today totally undermines the credibility that she had built for herself, as you yourself say.

Instead of dealing with this like an adult, she is running away like a child that has not got her own way. Where does she think she is going with this? How long is she going to live in an AirBnB for?

This is desperation, with no long or even medium-term plan behind it.

Like a few others here, I think it is imperative that you warn her affair partner's wife that your wife is currently a loose cannon, and that she (the OBS) needs to keep a close eye on her husband and any unexpected 'working late' or extra-curricular meetings.

It may not be much consolation, but you are in the right, and you are doing the right thing in the face of some very childish, irrational, and unreasonable behaviour.

[This message edited by M1965 at 7:06 PM, January 10th (Friday)]

No way to contact OBS. Could contact OM but think that's a bad idea.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 2:36 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 7:03 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]