SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I doubled down on my highly unusual means of trying to resuscitate this marriage...

For some reason - this is the language that sticks with me. It is like the cryptic discussions with WH. How can a therapist think that this type of email would in any way be helpful to a BS.

[This message edited by Ivyivy at 9:40 AM, February 23rd, 2014 (Sunday)]

It does us no good to stay in victim mode, but we should be validated that we were victimized.

This is what I posted on page 1, bionicgal.

I actually feel pretty strongly that he could help you if you'd let him.

And, that is why I disagree with you on this point, bg. This MC doesn't validate any of ivyivy's feelings. He continues to tell her she is wrong to have these feelings. Wow! I just find it astounding that a therapist would be telling a client that they were wrong to feel any particular way.

How about validating and reframing?

I once had an OW ask me to help her work out a plan to sit down with her boyfriend and his wife, and explain to her she, the OW was in charge and they would have a 3 way relationship. BW was totally in the dark as the WH and girlfriend were planning on telling her what was going on and they wanted a professional to facilitate and somehow make the conversation more valid.

What would you have done to validate this?

I am not a therapist. I have gone to quite a few. I wouldn't go to one if they told me my feelings weren't valid. I go to a therapist to share my feelings and have the help of a therapist to work through my feelings.

Stillstings, you are the therapist. What did you do with the OW? Did you validate her feelings and then try to reframe and redirect? I am hoping you didn't browbeat this OW by continually invalidating her feelings because that wouldn't be helpful, would it?

Stillstings - I think context is important. I may be a little nuts these days with everything going on but the things I took issue with are that WH has made many promises that he has backpeddled on, etc., and that whatever issues we may need to address in our marriage, the A comes first and is his fault, regardless of whatever other issues might exist.

I wanted to kick her in the ass and tell her how stupid she was being and laugh at her.

I didn't do that. I asked her what was she getting out of this relationship she'd been in for 5 years. I asked her to think about what it would be like to try and dictate a relationship with a person who may or may not be willing to play by her rules. Tell her to her face why she'd be the better mate and repeat all the things her husband said about her, she's too fat, she sucks as a cook. Would she also be prepared to not have her boyfriend leave his wife? What then?

That was the initial conversation. Next was delving into her past to figure out why she felt this was okay. She eventually started to realize how inappropriate this was. That was a conclusion she had to reach on her own. No browbeating. I was objective which I know so many people find to be obnoxious but you are not allowed to bail on clients and fire them.

Stillstings, you are a much better therapist than ivyivy's. You didn't tell the OW what you really wanted to say and do. (I love that you wanted to kick her ass. )

Next was delving into her past to figure out why she felt this was okay. She eventually started to realize how inappropriate this was. That was a conclusion she had to reach on her own.

See, you did validate her, but continued to lead her to the place where she needed to be.

ivyivy's therapist isn't validating her or leading her to be able to make her own conclusions but is just telling her how wrong her feelings are.

I have a deep respect for therapists. I couldn't do it. I am too emotional. See, I would have laughed in the OW's face and told her to get her skanky ass off my couch as I didn't want OW cooties on it.

But, not all therapists are good. Plain and simple. Or, others are good in one area but not so good in other areas. That is simply a fact.

I've already said that there are terrible therapist and good ones as well just like any other line of work.

I can see where this guy is coming from but he doesn't express it well. If he needs to be fired it isn't because he's an idiot (or some of the other choice terms that get tossed around)but I feel involving the WH as a client individually was an error. I don't agree with seeing a couple individually for that very reason since one can influence the therapist more heavily than the other with very bad or good results.

Staying objective with one person is difficult. Staying that way with 2 people? Possible but even more difficult.

I've already said that there are terrible therapist and good ones as well just like any other line of work.

I can see where this guy is coming from but he doesn't express it well. If he needs to be fired it isn't because he's an idiot (or some of the other choice terms that get tossed around)but I feel involving the WH as a client individually was an error. I don't agree with seeing a couple individually for that very reason since one can influence the therapist more heavily than the other with very bad or good results.

Staying objective with one person is difficult. Staying that way with 2 people? Possible but even more difficult.

Unprofessional on so many levels. Find yourself a new MC and cease communications with this babbling fool.

Ivy,

Do you mind me asking how you and your husband became acquainted with this counselor? Also, what type of counselor is it (psychologist, LCSW, etc)?

Please please find your own IC. I also recommend the best article I have ever read on dealing with infidelity. I have shared it with my own IC. After nearly five years of reading everything I could on the subject this article has been by far the most useful. It's long but well worth studying. Your MC is way off track. https://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course047.php

I actually found it interesting, and thought there was fodder for thought in there. I actually find myself thinking about the victim aspect a lot. .. And whether it is helpful for me to see my H as a perpetrator. I am not sure that, in the end, is a helpful -or even accurate--way to look at it, even though that is how it feels.

I know I'll get slammed here, but I actually thought the emails were thoughtful, and the counselor seems to care a lot about your case. I read this one a second time, and I'd suggest really trying to hear what he is saying. I don't think he is a quack....at all. I actually feel pretty strongly that he could help you if you'd let him.

This is pretty close to how I felt as well. I thought the delivery was unhelpful because s/he was being passionate rather than clinical, which tends to spark defensiveness in the reader (and clearly has) but the content was important and actually really useful.

I had a fantastic IC, and this was her take home message as well: you can be victimized in ONE ASPECT of your marriage, but you are not "a victim" as that demeans you as a human being. If you look at a marriage as a zero sum game, the marriage can't be sustained. If you can never see anything other than zero sum after working very hard at it, then divorce is the only path.

I think the issue with that message is that the therapist is taking a very solid big-picture long-game view, and what a very new BS wants is the slice that comes in the days after discovery. You can't SEE that big picture yet because you're trapped in the moment. You need the ER, stop the bleeding type of care.

This is why an MC never seems to work in the early days after dday. An MC can do that kind of "stop the bleeding" on a marriage, but a marriage is, as this therapist said, not about the husband or the wife as polarized entities, but the space in between the two and the mutual places you inhabit. So if you want validation as an all-or-nothing, '100% victim in the marriage or I'm totally out of here', then the MC is pretty much not going to be of use. There's no room for an MC to work within that framework, just an IC (to get you to the point where MC might be an option) or a divorce lawyer.

Yeah, I get that the fact that the email was written passionately and personally made it unprofessional and I agree with that. I'd be put off if the relationship I had with my IC sparked that kind of emotion from her - but then I like my IC to be clinical because then I can be as emotional as I want without fear of dragging her with me. She was my "ground". But I also get that the therapist was trying to show you the big picture view (which if you're unable to see, you would be completely within your right and all reasonableness for your stage post-A) - to show you that there was a path and a plan, and the things you were focusing on had a reasonable place within that path.

To me I feel this therapist acting as an MC would be great for the marriage healing stage, which probably comes later for you in the healing process, if R eventually becomes your/your WS mutual path.

I can see where this guy is coming from but he doesn't express it well. If he needs to be fired it isn't because he's an idiot (or some of the other choice terms that get tossed around)but I feel involving the WH as a client individually was an error. I don't agree with seeing a couple individually for that very reason since one can influence the therapist more heavily than the other with very bad or good results.

I do not understand your personal stake in this and the defensiveness with which you are approaching things.

It's easy to see the good in things when you snip away all the nastiness. Taking away all the negative language and confrontational attitude leaves a space for discussion regarding the underlying motive and method of this therapist.

The email in the first post spent a massive effort in time telling her what she was thinking, feeling and seeing. There were a few if/then statements but I did not see any questions asked other than the aforementioned confrontations. "Who asked you to accept blame for WH's choice?" is an attack. Period. A reasonable communication of that statement is "I did not ask you to accept blame for your WH choice." It doesn't even need an apology or clarification. Asking that as he did sets it up so she questions herself, and he continues in that same vein the entire email.

I don't see where she portrayed herself as a victim. All I see is someone who behaved unprofessionally by chastising and defining a client, without ever once asking any questions about her feelings of safety, well being, continued therapy with other counselors, etc. He asked nothing that was not framed as an attack on her perception of the situation.

I will stand by my opinion that this man is either an idiot, or has an undisclosed motive.

eta:

Also, to speak to this directly:

While I know counselors may not give the best advice, I have to say this. You know what you are taught in Counseling 101? People lie. A lot. I've had clients get angry at me and say I'm not helpful only to come clean weeks later and admit they were not truthful.

Martial counseling is extremely difficult as you not only have to sort out the information of one person, but 2 people. Do you know what it's like to have a couple play the he said/she said game with you? Completely ridiculous and that hour is wasted trying to referee and create a line of communication.

I could rant on but will refrain from doing so. It's very hard seeing stupid names be tossed around at people who are not actively out to get you but may be misinformed for various reasons.

I have been in IT for 20 years now. At this point I am as high as I can go without becoming management, which I hate, so I am back in school to get a physical therapist certification and ultimately a degree.

Everyone lies. That's all there is to it. There are days where I spend hours working a simple issue because a professional colleague is being a dick in CYA mode and not giving up basic information. It could be something as simple as he is not qualified for his job and has no idea what he is doing, or that he made a mistake and took down an entire global trading network.

I started in end user tech support. I hear shit about support people all the time. You know what? A lot of support people suck. They deserve the derision they receive, when it's applied in specific. There are a lot of general comments that get stuck in my craw but people are going to be people.

If there was a sentiment regarding therapists in general in this thread, then I missed it. Most of what I have seen has been directed at the therapist for the OP.

Yes, sometimes I take hours to fix something, or bust it up even more, because of a lack of information provided by a client or the clients IT employees. It is frustrating, but I can't see how it would apply to, say, a thread in OT bitching about Savvis Tier 3 support.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 9:08 AM, February 24th (Monday)]

get out. find a new counselor. no more money for this one. and no more wasting your time.

Oh yeah, and PLEASE keep your emails that he sent you and use them as proof of his inability to be a decent and reasonable counselor when you file a complaint against him with his lisencing board, and whatever health organization he is associated with. Dropping a line to your insurer is also a good thing to do. They like to know that if they should not be paying claims by inept providers.

However, early on, isn't it natural when having been so severely betrayed and deceived to perceive oneself as a victim? There is nothing about this feeling that should be criticized.

This wasn't directed at me, but I have some thoughts on this. I don't think anyone should be criticized in therapy for any feeling they have (with all the usual caveats in place). However there are most definitely ways of looking at yourself that are harmful, and a good therapist will help steer you away from those self-representations while examining their source and the path you took to get there.

To me this email sounded like an attempt to reframe the victim role as one that shouldn't be embraced. In essence it said, "if you embrace being a victim, then this is the most likely path that this will take..." - which is true, and logical, and therefore I think needed a way more padded delivery than you got.

But try to remember that the things that piss us off the most are the ones we should look more closely at as we move forward. Sometimes it's a post on SI. VERY often it's something said, suggested, revealed or uncovered in therapy. Maybe the things we are upset by are just upsetting things - or maybe they are things that bear closer scrutiny as we find the strength to invest that energy.

Therapists say things that rub patients the wrong way all the time. I'm not sure I see anything in here that is "file a complaint" worthy, but that's me.

There is a ton of caring still invested and buried behind the rage. Maybe I am giving voice to the caring that neither of you can express towards each other.

This especially struck me. There is a ton of hope in that statement.