SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ozbetrayed, You dont need to make a decision just yet. This is all very fresh and new. You have lots of thinking and processing to do.

Yes you need to find out the truth. You need to find out so that you can make the right choices for yourself as to where your M stands.

It is very important to keep the lines of communication open. Be firm and be strong (I know this can be so hard to do when you feel like you are falling apart) but she needs to know that you mean business and you arent going to put up with any bullshit. So tell her you want to sit down with her and discuss what has been going on. Set aside a time for you both after the kids have gone to bed. Be firm and say that this needs to happen if she wants your M to continue. I am certain that this will make her nervous but I am certain that if she wants to stay in the M she will participate.

Make a list of questions that you have, Im sure you have lots of them. Ask her for a timeline eg when the A started, how it transpired from being friends to a PA. You need to set boundaries. You need to tell her that you are not willing to stay married to her if she is going to continue to have any contact with this man. A no contact letter, message or phone call needs to be made all in your presence. You may even ask her to look for a new job if he is a co worker. You also need to tell her she needs to be transparent if the M is to continue. Ask to see her phone. If she hands it to you and you knew the old pin number, ask her why she has changed it. Ask for the new one. Tell her you want access to all social media accounts facebook, whatsapp, twitter, instagram and email accounts - the lot.

Take the information that she has given you and process it slowly. You may find you have more questions and that is normal. You will be able to tell if she is remorseful and if she is willing to do what you ask.

If you decided that Reconciliation is something that you both want to try, keep in mind it doesnt happen over night, there is no quick fix. Lots of emotions to be weathered by the both of you. It is a long process for you to trust her again.

Take it one day at a time, keep talking to each other. Keep reading, the yellow box on this page has a wealth of information.

Sending you strength to work through this and hoping the outcome is what you want.

So here's the update of how it all went.

I sat her down to a "groan" because we're having another one of "those" conversations.

I asked her where her head was at, because I didn't feel that she was contributing to working on our marriage. She didn't really give me alot.

I then ask her if there's anything she should tell me, and repeat this question several different ways, always getting the defensive "no".

So I asked flat out... What really happened on Friday. She snapped and told me that what she told me already was true.

I'm inclined to believe her.

I then ask her why she changed the PIN on her phone and she said it's because she knew I was snooping.

I asked her for the phone, she refused. I challenged her on the message on Sunday night. She snapped.

I asked her for the phone again, again she refused. She says she won't be controlled or emotionally abused by my snooping. She's not willing to live her life like that.

She can't seem to understand how her actions are a step in the wrong direction.

I tell her I want a divorce.

Reality hits her like a tonne of bricks.

She relents and unlocks the phone - Shows me the message from her dad and shows me a few other things.

I tell her I don't care. I tell her the damage is done.

She says she can't believe that I'm not willing to give reconciliation a go! - That's it's on me if I break up our family. I'm beyond belief.

She has this thing about her "privacy" to hide nothing. I simply don't understand it. If you have nothing to hide, then why would there be an issue me going through her phone, or being able to log into "find my iphone" - Why get upset about it, if there's nothing to hide.

The thing that gets me, is that she puts her "right to privacy" to hide apparently nothing over my feelings, our marriage and our family.

How dare she blame me for this. Sure, I'm to blame for some of our relationship problems, but not for the breakdown of it. She actually had the audacity to blame me for her affair.

Cue a 3 hour argument.

During this time, I tell her repeatedly, I can never trust her again, I can not see a future with her. She's not invested in making things right.

She claims she doesn't know what to do, but everything I've asked of her, she's done the opposite.

She says that she'd consider changing if an independent third party says she's in the wrong, and she wants the opinion of our MC.

I tell her that she should be listening to my thoughts and feelings and that just because our MC tells her, it's too late. Why should my feelings only be valid because a MC agree?

I was booked in for a IC today, but I said to her that she should come along too.

I'm confident that the councillor will say that I should have right to "snoop" - I need re-assurance. She has breached my trust and now expects me to just cop it.... I can't imagine the councillor not being on my side for this.

Additionally, the councillor will certainly agree that she cannot blame me for her affair. I didn't make her do anything. She chose this path, she put herself in the situation and she chose to be selfish and have an affair.

I'm responsible for some of the difficulties in our relationship, but she is 100% responsible for the affair.

The sooner she realises this, the sooner she will come to the party. But I feel like it's too late.

I also believe that the councillor will say to her, that no matter how frustrating or upsetting my questioning is, she needs to graciously answer. She has no right to make me feel bad about challenging her or asking her whereabouts. She had the affair. She needs to live with the consequences. If she can't she needs to accept that she is responsible for the D.

So at this stage, we'll see what the councillor has to say today.

She will need to have a big epiphany and have it quickly.

I think she's starting to realise the gravity of her choices and the seriousness of the situation.

You guys were right. Going into R too soon and trying my ass off to improve the relationship has simply made me a door mat.

I can't do that to myself.

If she doesn't change, I can't continue. If she changes, she'll need to be humble and accept her actions have consequences. If she can't move past that, then we have no hope.

"She says she won't be controlled or emotionally abused"...this is why you can't be a nice guy....she has taken the gloves off.

"She actually had the audacity to blame me for her affair."...common. But you are not to blame. She is definitely not even close to even consider R.

"what she told me already was true." I don't think there are a lot of us here that believe her. What is important is whether you believe her. Do not rugsweep. Think about the logic of crying for an hour and a half unless she just saw her AP.

"right to privacy" the affair removes her right until you give it back to her, if you ever do.

"During this time, I tell her repeatedly, I can never trust her again, I can not see a future with her. She's not invested in making things right.".....I get what you are saying, brother.

"She says that she'd consider changing if an independent third party says she's in the wrong". She should change because she wants the M to work. She should be more than willing to do EVERYTHING you ask simply because you have asked and NOT because an independent third party says so, Sheesh! There are so many other words that come to my mind but SI may bar me

"She needs to live with the consequences." that is why so many here have suggested that you out her to family/friends and her workplace. Affairs do have consequences. You can out her and still treat her with respect simply because she had the affair. Believe the folks here, she will not treat you kindly to family and friends. Good luck and peace to you.

" But I feel like it's too late"....while I would love to hear that she has turned around and re-committed to the M. But, I believe what you are now feeling....that it is over. How sad. There may come a time in the future where she'll realize the magnitude of what she did. Don't hold your breath.

Cock you foot back- and kick her cheating, lying ass out. File the divorce and don't let up until shes puking out bile on the floor in front of you.

Your WW sounds exactly like mine did. Said almost verbatim the same things and we had the same argument over the phone after I caught her with suspicious texts.

She's cheating bad and you got her running scared and defensive but you've got no smoking gun proof.

Turn this shit around- expose! to everyone! File that divorce- and like I said, dont give in the slightest until you are sure she has chosen you 100%.

Prepare your self. I can tell she will make you look like the bad guy in all of this.

Yes she is sorry,but she has no remorse...which means you are in for battle which means her claws will come out and they are going after your heart....why cuz even though she is sorry, with out remorse she doesn't care about how your feel.

In short she is sorry for getting caught.

Ok so she says she told you the teuth about friday night. I don't buy it, mostly because of her reaction to you, but now is where you verify. You need her ohone and you need to run dr fone on it. You need to read her texts that she has deleted. Also you need to become aware of the various apps out there you can use to cheat and hide it. There are even apps that are hidden on your home screen. Have a look at her recently added apps. Also check fb messenger. If you are going to believe her, believe her on evidence. Also get a var and put it in her car.

Look what she is doing is abuse. Continued gaslighting, lying, emotional manipulation and likely an ongoing affair. If you had a female friend who was being beaten by her husband would you tell her to be the better person and keep his dirty secrets and tell her to just move on? Or would you encourage her to out him to 1 get support for herself, 2 hopefully help him get help because he finally had to face himself. Exposing her is all about shining the light of day on her fantasy world and making her face reality. Not to hurt her but to hopefully help her and if she can't face that, then so she can't further betray you by blaming you to the people closest to you, including your kids!

People who have nothing to hide , hide nothing. I told my wife this after Dday. She still thought she had a right to privacy in spite of her destroying any trust I did have. Privacy and secrecy are 2 different things. Your wife abused that trust, now she has to suffer the consequences and work hard to earn it back. I told my wife the hardest thing she will ever do is earn my trust the second time.

Right now your wife doesn't get it. She doesn't see the damaged she caused when she had an affair. You have to look at her phone, email and question her whereabouts because she chose to stab you in the back , not because you have a curious nature. You would like to be able to trust your wife , but she has proven that she is not worthy of that trust, so you must verify everything .

If she really wants to save the marriage she will do whatever it takes, she will be willing to prove that she can be a safe partner.

BTW...I hope your counselor isn't a cheater...or your screwed.

Why bother?

She is still in an affair.what has she done to make you think other wise?

Come home on time,sit at your feet,let you spank her,serve you dinner,turn off her phone,denounce the OM directly to the OM,let her family know she is broken,start looking for another job?

See a lawyer,she will be pissed...If she is remorseful she will be submissive enough to understand.

If wayward is just sorry they usually get mad when the betrayed lawyers up.

If wayward has remorse they accept your feelings and do everything they can to change the direct the betrayed is head.

Your WW needs to work on her self and figure out how to heal you through IC.

Then she can use the tools she learned and work on a healthy relation ship with you through MC.

Just a word of caution concerning the counsellor, it would be best that you meet with them privately on your next appointment, and have them clarify their philosophy concerning infidelity...not all counsellors are the same, and many are not really qualified to deal with infidelity properly.

You don't want to get to the appointment with her and have your guts ripped out by some idiot that's not qualified to help you.

[This message edited by OrdinaryDude at 10:26 PM, August 28th (Monday)]

BTW...she needs to understand that the BS never owes the WS reconciliation... it is always and only ever a gift, given solely at the discretion of the BS.

In many years on this and other forums, I have never seen reconciliation work when the affair partners continued to work together. When they are continually in touch with each other how can they possibly keep their hands off each other. Think drug addiction. Its the same thing.

I wouldn't rely too much on the word of a third party. Say the councilor says "Okay Oz, you're right and your wife is wrong." So what?? That in itself is not going to wake her up or shift her thinking. I don't care what she says. You're trying to apply logic in a situation and to a person that's not behaving or thinking logically.

Also you do not need to be having 3 hour long discussions with her. Like you said, the second you hit her with divorce talk is the moment it seemed like reality hit her. At least for a moment. Because it was the threat of a concrete consequence. Not endless chit chats or a therapist seemingly taking your side.

Again, you need to drop the MC and joint counseling period unless your wife starts to show remorse through her ACTIONS. I wouldn't even bring her to your IC, it's not going to accomplish anything.

If you haven't started the 180 then you need to. Read up on it in the healing library. Keep conversations with your wife to a minimum and have her served with divorce papers or have them drawn up and present them to her. Any conversations from this point should only be regarding divorce, finances, or children until she starts to act like her head is coming out of her ass.

Stop whining to her about not contributing to the marriage. She doesn't care. Stop telling her how you don't agree with her feelings regarding her privacy. She doesn't care. Stop telling her how you don't trust her. She doesn't care.

I also wouldn't count on the Councillor automatically siding with you either. There have been plenty of BS here who have been blindsided when the MC or IC basically seemed to take the side of the WS. Or at the very least want to assign blame equally. Especially when it comes to infidelity.

You're still looking at this all wrong. Your arguing, endless talking, empty threats (and the divorce talk is an empty threat until you have papers for her to sign) still do nothing except make you look weak. And again women do not respect weak men. ACTIONS are what will help wake your wife up. ACTIONS are what will help get you respect back. Filing for divorce, exposing, doing the 180, etc. Not talking, talking, and even more talking. You're doing WAAYY too much talking.

Not trying to come down on you, it's not like this is a perfect science and it's easy to give advice from the outside looking in. But you need to stop trying to understand and get in your wife's head. Because she's not thinking rationally, she's thinking and acting on emotion. And you're just going to drive yourself up a wall trying to make sense of nonsensical behavior while accomplishing little or nothing.

[This message edited by JS84 at 2:18 AM, August 29th (Tuesday)]

Your wife lost the argument. What she is doing now are two logical fallacies - gas lighting (attaching you) and appeal to authority (counselor)

What you need to do is not argue. Tell her simply that if she values her privacy so much then she can file a divorce. Last time you trusted her with privacy she fucked half of Australia, so clearly it's obvious as to why that exists.

She's changing the topic. Your gut it screaming about last Friday. Let her know another unconditional exposure is that you wil polygraph her, and that one question will be has there been even a small instance of No Contact break since NC established.

Lastly, you need a lawyer/soliciter. You need to start protecting yourself.

You better hope she manages to twist the councillor to taking her point of view

Cue a 3 hour argument.

Three hours is way too long. Three hours gives her time to "work you".

Not to get into a lot of gender differences, but due to the way the brain is built, women process nuanced emotional information at a greater speed than men do. So, while both sexes have the same range of emotions, women have a speedier connection between the left and right hemispheres of the brain. IOW, males need more time to process complex emotional information than women do. In an extended emotional confrontation, she can use that to her advantage and exhaust you.

Keep discussion down to 30 minutes or less, and walk away once you've made your point. Try to limit topics to just one or two and don't take the bait when she tries to change the flow of the conversation.

My 2 cents...

Not talking, talking, and even more talking. You're doing WAAYY too much talking.

Listen to JS84. His post was perfect.

We all get it. She has been your partner and the one you have discussed everything with for years. It is only natural that you yearn to communicate with her now. And it is frustrating/heartbreaking/infuriating that you cannot make her understand just how abusive and selfish her behavior is and you just urgently want to explain. But JS84 is 100% correct - she is not in a place where she hears anything.

Fact is - she's getting off on all this chatter. You're giving her ammunition for future arguments and fodder for the blameshifting yet to come. And she see's how you are spinning and struggling and it makes her feel powerful.

So my friend, step back. Minimize all conversations. It will serve you well.

And for the love of God, please ignore this 3rd party bullshit. It was by her pulling a "3rd" party into your marriage that all this pain was generated. IC is for you and only you - not to make a point for her. It is quite insulting that she even made the suggestion as it is only to advance her agenda.

Step back, stop the circular conversations, go workout (as hard as you possibly can), find an IRL friend to support you and keep posting. Because right now she is not your friend - she is a stranger.

You don't want to cause her pain? Wrong. If you want any chance of R, she must feel the pain. The pain of her world falling apart, her beliefs, her dreams crumbling to dust. The pain, comparable to yours, when you found out about her infidelity. So use any means available to cause it to her - divorce papers, 180, throw her out of the house, whatever. She must come back begging on her knees.

7 months ago I was doing pick me dance and slowly heading towards suicide. Things started to change when I found SI, read Not Just Friends and was able to say to her - "Remember when you told me that I don't need you, I just need a rug to wipe my feet on? You know, to be able to wipe my feet, the rug needs to be clean, and now I'll just get my feet dirty". So after that I got some truth (that it was PA too, etc) and it looked like we entered R mode. Two months ago my wife was EXACTLY like yours and I was heading straight for DDay#2.

After that she got served divorce papers. Several days of shock (confusion, anger, disbelief) and she started begging to give her last chance. And I think that I know how real remorse looks like now (I say this with caution, since I know better than to trust anything about her blindly).

I said to her yesterday - sometimes I want to strip you naked and throw you out into the street with WHORE written on her back. She replied that she will do it if it helps me.

So, do whatever it takes for her to feel that pain. D or R, she and your kids will benefit from that most probably.

I would highly suggest that you go to IC on your own. That is what IC is for, it is not an MC session, it is just for you. Many BS's confuse therapy at first, when we book MC or IC at the very beginning we are just wishing and hoping that someone, anyone will talk to us for an hour or two and fix this whole thing. But that is not how it works. IC I think is a terrific idea for you, use this time to see if this counselor can help you with your own feelings and confusion during this very difficult time. Trust me, you want someone to help walk you thru all of this, it goes way deeper then you can understand right now.

And sadly she is following the script of what most cheaters do when confronted, lie, hide, manipulate, blame shift, get defensive.....she checked all of those boxes during your talk. She is still in the A, she has probably deleted everything you might have seen now anyway, she has gone underground.