SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This psychobable just doesn't translate well.

Most experts claim to know the myriad reasons for affairs. This is the same shit, different day.

Cheaters fuck others because they want to. Prostitues. Strippers. Bartenders. Etc.

She didn't dwell much on ONSs.

I wonder why?

[This message edited by MidnightRun at 10:44 PM, September 26th (Tuesday)]

Midnight pretty much summed it up succintly. Affairs or ONS are pretty much the lowest common denominator. It's lust, excitement and ego kibble thrown in. Trying to delve further into the intricacies of cheaters is just chasing down a rabbit hole most of the time.

It isn't easy to publish in The Atlantic; it has high standards. You have to have something interesting and important to say and you have to say it well. Many people are interested in hearing what Esther Perel has to say about relationships and about infidelity. Her book about sustaining sexual desire in long term relationships (Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence; 2006) was a best seller. Her 2013 TED talk about sustaining sexual desire in long term relationships has more than 10 million views. Her 2015 TED talk about infidelity has more than eight million views. Her book on extramarital affairs, The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity", which is due to be released on October 10, 2017, is likely to become a best seller.

In "Why Happy People Cheat" (The Atlantic, October 2017), Esther Perel makes some important observations about extramarital affairs. For one thing, she emphasizes that people don't cheat simply because there is something awry with their marriages or with their spouses. An affair is more than simply a symptom of a bad marriage.

Perel claims that it is important to understand what an affair means for the perpetrator. She says that in some cases an affair can be "a poetic interlude in a prosaic life", a dalliance that "was only ever meant to be a beautiful fiction." In some cases, an affair is "a quest for a new (or lost) identity". An affair is an intimate encounter with an alternate self. That is, an affair is often symptom of an identity crisis, an existential crisis, a crisis of meaning. "Adultery is the revenge of the deserted possibilities" of the road not taken.

At about this point, Esther Perel is wearing a beret, leaning against a piano, puffing on a cigarette. In her Belgian-French accent she intones in a husky voice: "You Americains. So naive. You know nothing of life. You understand nothing of love."

But Esther Perel is not ignorant or unintelligent. She anticipates the objections to her theory of extramarital affairs. She knows that any attempt to understand affairs will be construed as an attempt to justify them. She knows that many people will prefer to condemn affairs as immature, selfish, hurtful behavior and leave it at that.

Perel's main thesis (the "existential crisis theory of extramarital affairs") seems intriguing and insightful enough. It seems at least as insightful as "My Husband's Affair Became the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me", or "Love Busters: Protect Your Marriage by Replacing Love-Busting Patterns with Love-Building Habits" which is a companion to "His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage". On the other hand, it seems fair to ask why we should believe that Perel's explanation for extramarital affairs is better than any other. Perel may understand affairs better than most because she has been a marital therapist for many years and because she has been "conducting an open-ended survey about infidelity". She seems to have the credentials to be an expert but every article or book on infidelity is authored by a "relationship expert".

An alternative theory of extramarital affairs might be that affairs are great fun. They are romantic. After 30 years, sex with the same person becomes tedious and sex with a new person is exciting. There is no sex like forbidden sex. etc etc

There is nothing new about the "affairs are great fun theory of extramarital affairs". It is common knowledge that sex with a new partner gets the juices flowing. It is a given that a long term marriage involves giving up the excitement and passion of sex with new partners in favor of the enduring love of someone familiar.

It doesn't seem obvious that Perel's "existential crisis" theory explains any more than the more conventional "affairs are great fun" theory. The "great fun theory" is a boring because it is obvious. It hardly seems worthy of a book publishing deal or even an article in The Atlantic. Perhaps Perel's theory has the advantage of novelty: perhaps it upends some conventional wisdom. If that's the case, then it is just a matter of time before another relationship expert develops an even more intriguing and provocative theory of affairs. Something, oh I dunno, something new and exciting.

I’ve been looking at a blinking line for about 30 minutes trying to see the best way to arrange my thoughts. When I first cheated in 2012 I was looking to cheat. I was unhappy, tired of being emotionally abused but to much of a coward to ask for a divorce or even go through one. The affair was discovered and I did the whole “I’ll never do it again” speech and then rugswept. Of course I told him why I thought I did it and he made enourmous leaps and bounds to change all those years ago. So much so I was the HAPPIEST I’d ever been in my marriage. 4 years later I ran into AP at a place where he works,completely by accident. Being completely happy with my H I had no intention of ever cheating on him and of course I wasn’t looking for an affair like last time. This time AP persued me. I was flattered. When he last saw me I was 31. Our last affair I was 36 and of course having self esteem issues (my entire life). But I was HAPPY with my husband....just not with myself. I knew full well that nothing could ever emerge from our affair. He was married and I knew I could never have a real relationship with a person like him, so I deemed him “safe.” I would never be tempted to leave my spouse, because I didn’t want to. I loved him dearly. I would never develop any lasting feelings for the AP because I knew from previous experience we wouldn’t let each other. The 2nd time around I told my husband it had nothing to do with him, he did nothing. I couldn’t explain it yet, but I knew for a fact he had been making me happy. Even today with all the why’s I’ve found, he still won’t believe it had nothing to do with him. It really,really didn’t. So anyways I had an affair. While completely happy with my marriage, with my husband. It is possible to do what EP writes about but the thing I discovered is I’m broken and I’m thinking....so is Priya, she just doesn’t know it yet. I’ve discovered so much about myself that isn’t healthy. From FOO issues, to cheating being “the norm”, to my coping skills. I am so messed up. So yes, you can cheat when happy but I believe there has to be something broken inside you as well. Maybe shes right and I was looking for my “lost” self, but that self is bad. She’s so broken and cowardly the only place to leave her is dead and buried, and if indeed that’s what I was looking for I can now see it for what it is and will crush any feelings that ever immerge that tempt me to want to explore it again.

I hadn't read everyone's posts, but I wanted to add to the conversation and ask a question that Ester asks of the reader as well. "Why do people cheat if there is an option to separate or divorce?"

To me this question rests with the fact that coupling or marriage does not define someone's capacity to stay faithful. Obviously that is why divorce and other options for separation exist. This question sounds like a reason to believe that in a marriage you do not own one another's feelings of true love. This question to me defines Ester's true motivation for sharing these painful stories of regret, and/or lose. This questions points out that we are all free to choose to be honest about our desires within an honest romantic relationship. She focuses on how both spouses are accountable to freely choose to be faithful within the marriage.

I personally feel I was manipulated to believe I was loved for a number of years without being married. I wanted to be married and my faithful BF at the time romanticized the idea of a relationship without marriage by saying "why do you need a paper to prove we love each other?" I bought this idea for a number of years, and felt like to some extent it is true. Once he proposed to me I knew I needed time as well. I needed that time to know for certain what it meant to him. I quickly realized the ring did not prove he actually loved me anymore than a signed piece of paper would.

I listened to Ester's podcasts and read her books weeks prior to being like one of the victims in her betrayal stories. She encourages communication about infidelity before it happens to avoid to be aware of how each other views infidelity. Some part me of feels these conversation only provoked my fiance to think about infidelity as option for him as long as he did not tell me.

I was informed, but that did not "prepare" me for the betrayal. After I found out I was cheated on by my WF and told him what I needed to heal "therapy and continuous communication". He agreed. He wanted to reconcile. I also submitted the forms to apply to be on Ester's podcast and we were accepted. He backed out and to this day I feel it would have saved me from months of agony to have Ester's view.

I sincerely believe the reason why WS stay in a marriage when they are feel like cheating rather than moving on is because they do not want to accept that they do not love someone anymore. Whether they do not love themselves or the person they are married to or both is another topic that Ester tries to respond to through her expertise. Her views about surviving a painful and traumatic experience by changing your attitude is one that I hope people who attempt are successful in. I for one struggle with bitterness and fear.

Trusting one another to be faithful is choice that requires an investment from both people in the relationship. If one person doesn't make the investment then they are not in love with you anymore.

This lady is full of shit. It's almost a romanticizing of the WS. She needs to go away to a small island with an indigenous population and play lord of the rings. The world would be a much better place without the likes of her explaining away and excusing cheating.

I think she's probably right, I know a couple of very "happily married" cheaters. They are cheating for some of the reasons that EP talks about, to be a new version of themselves, to be the white knight, to be a porn star hero.. Whatever. I don't disagree with her thesis, but what she's missing is that cheating is like asymmetric warfare. Let me explain (and bring by my theory of happiness points to do so).

Let's just take a stance and say that cheating makes the cheater happy. I think as much as we don't want it to be true, it is, if it didn't make them happy, they wouldn't do it, right? But that happiness comes at a cost, at the cost of the BS's happiness. And it's not a 1-1 trade. And that's the fundamental problem, the world is a less happy place after an A ends. Let's take a typical couple in a typical marriage, and let's say that the husband is getting ready to cheat. Right now, the soon to be WH is pretty happy, let's call it a 6 (1-10 scale). BW is happier, let's call it a 7. The other couple, the WW is not all that happy, 3 happiness points, where the other husband, he's happy, 8 happiness points.

The A kicks off, the WH and WW are having a blast. The WH gets 3 happiness points, the WW gets 2 happiness points. If you look at this in isolation (which I believe EP is doing) it looks pretty good, overall it's +5 happiness points right? Now, eventually that math won't work, both APs will become more unhappy in their marriage, as will the BS's, but, let's just look at the "honeymoon" phase of a new A. Everyone is cruising along, WH is getting more sex, WW is getting all the romance she's missing at home. Nirvana, or close, right?

Well, then DD comes. Now, where do all these totals land? Well, on the 1-10 scale, both the BS go to a 0. Or a strongly negative number, but, since I made the scale, let's just call it a 0, the worst pain you've ever felt. The WH chucks his AP under the bus, and she's devastated, the WH and her BH are both treating her like trash. She goes to a 1 happiness point, nearly the worst pain she's ever felt. The WH is scrambling to save his marriage, has to deal with a devastated wife, probably isn't getting any sex anymore, and is living in constant turmoil. Let's say he lands at 3 happiness points.

So, in this hypothetical example, we lost almost ALL the happiness points across these 4 people, the world is a shittier place, you have 4 people who are miserable for a variety of reasons and will remain miserable for a long, long time (much longer than your typical A lasts). Adding +2 happiness points takes ALL the happiness points from the BS's. It's asymmetric, the WS get's a bit happier, but the BS sees their world fall to pieces. And that's the problem, I have no doubt that A's add happiness for some people, but the amount of happiness they add is NOTHING compared to the amount of heartache they cause after discovery. It's like someone letting you borrow 100 bucks today at 10,000% daily interest. You're a little happier when you get the 100 bucks (day 1), but when the interest accrues and you see the amount owed on day 30 you realize that you mortgaged your happiness to buy a new set of headphones. The happiness added by the 100 bucks is nothing compared to the pain of realizing you're now going to lose your house because of a really deal on a loan. Incidentally, a deal that this one sided is illegal, you're not allowed to make a loan at 10,000% daily interest. But that's what an A is, it's a tiny bump in happiness compared to the bill that will come due at the end of the month.

A's make the world a shittier place for all of us, the more they happen, the more unhappy/broken people we have. Even if it leads to D, the M/W the betrayed dates next (and perhaps for the rest of their lives) gets to pay the bill for the affair (often). It hurts people MUCH more than it lifts up the AP's.

I've heard a few people say "The sex better have been mindblowing/fantastic, because at least then they got something out of it". I don't feel that way, but I understand the sentiment. So much pain and loss for what? A few "I love you's" an orgasm and a romp in a the backseat of a car or bent over a dumpster? That sex better have been life altering, mind bending, best sex ever because that A has forever changed my life for the worse. And in nearly every (every, in fact, I've never seen anyone argue otherwise) case it's not. It's just some "I love you's" and a few orgasms. The price paid for that is insane.

Just another self proclaimed "expert".

Cham Tea said it best:

Esther Perel pretty much always makes a point about how she's not condoning affairs... right before she goes on to condone affairs.

Selfish

I think that Esther Perel can be useful to people that are further out in the process. Like years out. If my WS spouted any of this closer to Dday . . .let's just say it would not be helpful at the time. Many years out ? Maybe.

I've never liked the Esther Perel articles or TED talks. To me she seems very dismissive to the BS and makes it sound like being a WS is OK. Even admirable. Too many people could take that and justify a lot of destructive behaviors.

As a guide to help a WS explore themselves and their reasons she can be beneficial. Since she generally minimizes BS role I wouldn't recommend to another BS. Much better stuff out there for us.

The most insightful take on Esther Perel can be found if you just Google:

"Esther Perel can bite me"

I agree with what marji has written and posted regarding the content of the article and Perel's work.

I wish to approach her reasons for what she espouses further. For some reason people cannot see that Esther Perel, and her writings like, "Why Happy People Cheat" sale and makes her and her business associates a lot of money. Nothing more. As individuals and a society infidelity is a problem with a host of negative impacts. Her work does not offer help on the individual to heal from infidelity or address methods as a society we may better support marriages and families. She merely states we demand more from our spouses today, gives insight into one aspect of infidelity regarding it happens, and states for a portion of the cheaters it is to feel alive. Then she states that we will have 2 to 3 relationships.

After reading her work, I

discovered no new insight or answers. If you follow her beliefs of it will happen and how it happens leaves me with the question of why bother with marriage or investing with a female in a long term relationship if at some point she will want to feel alive and cheat.

Psychologists and other professionals that are less known have done much greater work IMHO.

I speculate that her readers that give credence to her work cheat at signifcantly higher rate than the general population. A cohort analysis would be telling IMHO.

I like exploring and going on a journey. Add sex and it is even more fun. Why would anyone deny themselves such self exploration? Who does not want "aliveness."

I recall her saying treat your spouse as a client as a fix. For her IMHO it is about sales, marketing, and money. She does not go to the painful areas of marital relationships.

She says that people used to get married to have sex and now stop having sex when they get married because it plays well to societal members that do not think IMHO. Historically, this statement is incorrect. A lot was happening in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. There have been people that cheat since the dawn of humanity. People were having sex before marriage well before this generation. Infidelity has been an issue historically and across many Cultures.

She placates the injured ego of the BS and rug sweeps the betrayal of the WS and makes them fell "happy" with reasons for moral failure that allow them to not own their deficiencies of character or the damage their actions cause to others. She also omits the psychological and biological aspects of infidelity. Her writings play to those that want a check box reason for the shortcomings of themselves or their spouse regarding betrayal.

"Men cheat out of boredom and fear of intimacy and women cheat out of loneliness and a longing for intimacy" does not reflect the reality of infidelity. She omits the need for validation and power infidelity fulfills.

She fails to address the ethics and morality of infidelity. She does not address the shortcomings in character of the cheater. She also greatly minimizes the destruction affairs have on the betrayed, family, and cheater.

"You can renegotiate the entire thing. ... There will be post-traumatic stress — and [then] there may be post-traumatic growth." is such a simplistic model of the destruction and recovery from infidelity. You cannot sum up 3 to 5 years of hell into this statement.

Re-title her article "defict of character: the moral shortcomings of cheaters," and write about this and see how many copies of the Atlantic would be sold.

Let's get really controversial and draft an article titled "Why you should never marry a happy person that cheats" or "Individuals that cheat: how and if you can address your moral shortcomings to be a safe spouse." Subtitled "Lessons on doing the work."

These writings would be of immense benefit IMHO. They just would not make as much money for Esther however.

We had Dr. Laura now we get Esther.

[This message edited by Ripped62 at 8:10 AM, July 28th (Saturday)]

Basically cheaters can not face, live in reality. They have to create a fantasy for themselves. And are okay with lying to themselves and others to do it.

Esther Perel is a fraud. She posits some enlightened view of the cheater, encourages and praises them, and goes on to blame the BS.

When WW started trying to get on R, she went on directly to the Perel books and podcasts. I promptly informed her that wasn’t going to fly with me.

Also, if you search for her background, she is not a certified counselor, but a graduate of Art Therapy, and a self-promoting speaker.

And of course her schtick sells! People, especially WS, want to hear validation and justification for their actions! Here is this TED speaker that will tell you that cheating was cool and nice, and that now BS has to get over it!

IMHO, if WS starts reading Perel, it is time to call it quits.