SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm not co-dependent as it turns out

So your WH is a narcissist, but you are not codependent? And you are analytical and love to do research about his illness and brain, but you are not trying to fix him?

ask me for help and explain what you need and if I deem it valid, I'm all there

I WANT him to be a better person - to be happier - for him AND hopefully for this not to happen to some other unsuspecting "victim" like myself.

You say you are not a codependent? But married a narcissist? And he cheated? And then you stayed with him? And did all this???? Hmmmm.

Is this the definition of painshopping?

The question was rhetorical, but thanks for the effort.

If I have been hit by a train once. and see another coming down the tracks and I dont...never mind.

No offense intended barcher. I just don't understand those who can not hear the word "DUCK!!!. It's a military thing.

I didn't respond to this before... but I failed to notice that you are specifically claiming that I am painshopping.

Not in the least.

I don't precisely get your DUCK!!! comment...

Nonetheless, I think that your snark (assuming that it is snark) is getting at the issue. I had no idea that I was co-dependent or that my STBXWW was a narcissist when all of this began almost 3 years ago.

Rather quickly, SI members labelled me as a co-dependent. I can remember asking my first therapist about this and she disagreed. I stopped seeing her in March 2017. I am sure that my STBXWW was labeled as a narcissist then, but I don't recall it. She's pretty much a classic covert narcissist and the folks here at SI are pretty f'in smart.

I honestly did not start putting the pieces together as far as the toxic marriage that I had as far as co-dependent vs. narcissist until October/November 2018. That's literally more than 2 years after D-day and a couple of months after we decided to D.

So, was I a slow learner? Yes! I am unique in this? Nope. Hence, I made this post.

I draw an analogy between narcissism/co-dependency and The Matrix: Unfortunately no one can be told what the matrix is. You have to see it for yourself

Now that I see the Matrix, I am trying to figure out how to avoid such toxic relationships in my life. I am also trying to figure out how to raise my kids with their narcissistic mother while maintaining my sanity and theirs. I have plenty of challenges ahead. The letter that I posted... is far more informative than mere painshopping.

I'm not co-dependent as it turns out - I had a bout with what looks like co-dependency immediately post-dday, but that's normal coping.

I don't know you well enough to comment, so I will just comment on me.

I say that I am a co-dependent, but I am really not fully co-dependent. I am not an empath; I do not take on another person's problems as my own. My girlfriend is much more of a co-dependent than me.

I do, however, exhibit one aspect of co-dependency very strongly: people pleasing.

Well, a lot of this stuff impacts our personalities in a wide range and in different ways. Even Narcissistic Personality Disorder looks different in different people.

I could be wrong, but my memory is that codependents attract to many needy or difficult situations or people, but only codependent people end up with narcissists. Does that come in different levels or degrees of dysfunction? Almost certainly. But who else besides someone that is other focused like a codependent would want to be with a selfish, self-focused narcissist? And want to stay and help them no matter what crap they pull?

I know it's the male/female thing, but almost all codependent men that I know (several) only display symptoms in their R. Or with people pleasing. They have good boundaries with everything else. But many of the women are worse, being taken advantage of in many ways and with several people. And how do the men feel about their codependency? Resentful. They are very passive aggressive. It's ridiculous. The women are not resentful, but they are depressed with a tinge of self-loathing. I feel that people wear codependency differently. And they wear narcissism differently also.

And you are analytical and love to do research about his illness and brain, but you are not trying to fix him?

Nope - not trying to fix him at all. I don't think he's fixable and that's not my job. To be interested in WTF goes on in the mind of the person that hurt you is pretty normal if you ask me. I do like to help people but no more than average. I like volunteering etc but I don't get my self worth from that.

I have a financial situation and a temporary job that has had me stay - would have been very hurtful to my career and my financial life for me to leave and I decided I was not going to hurt myself more just because of his behavior. We have NOT been trying to R for the last 6 months, taking separate vacations, etc. Not staying now for anyone other than me. When my job ends I'm gone and he knows it. Our finances are separated etc already - but thanks for analyzing me. I actually went to two different therapists in the last 18 months (my first one had to stop seeing clients due to her son being diagnosed with a terminal illness) and I INSISTED I was co-dependent because so many people on here said that I was after reading my first 2 posts. I actually printed them out and brought them in with the comments and both therapists told me (not on the first visit) that I'm not in the least. That initial period of finding out you are a BS most people seem to tend to behave out of character for awhile as they get their bearings. I'm no different apparently.

Thank you for your critical diagnosis though. I'm going with the professional diagnosis.

It's tempting to diagnose people - I try not to and have refrained from doing the same with the WH and with people on here precisely because I'm not a professional. I'm not sharing my findings with the WH but his behavior has been absolutely mystifying to me and as he has shared things with me from his going to IC it really got me to thinking. That's how I am and always have been - curious about how we "tick" and I research everything. I love to read and learn.

Not sure why you take such issue with me sharing some of this but seriously if more of us refrained from diagnosing people on a message board it would make this place better than it already is. But I digress - this isn't about me and I thought it was interesting to share is all, especially as I've never been in a relationship like this at all. It's been pretty unbelievable to see this behavior in action, especially since it all blew up post A, and I seriously didn't really grasp how someone like my WH works - he's doesn't exhibit many of the narcissist type behaviors but he's high on the scale. It's a spectrum and honestly I've never been involved with anyone who thinks like he does, and it's almost unbelievable sometimes.

One of the other things I didn't know what what narcissism really is. There are 7 sub-categories and depending on which someone is "high" scoring on really seems to correlate to how narcissism manifests itself in everyone.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 9:21 PM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

The likelihood your relationship will cause you pain is almost a certainty. Moving forward in that direction is not avoiding a toxic relationship. Incorrect matrix. You are putting forth the most valuable capital you have (time) and your expenditures will likely result in pain. There is a word for that, so please feel free to insert the word and correct your perception of my snark. KISA? Masochist? or simply "unwise".

I have been reminded that your GF is not my wife and she would not be, if she wrote me that letter. That's the short definition of duck. I think a lot of people here use the word "run".

As I said before, No offense intended and none taken. Good luck in your divorce and this relationship. Strength and Honor, brother.

[This message edited by 66charger at 2:27 AM, May 16th (Thursday)]

Sorry she’s playing the victim here instead of taking responsibility of her actions. Making excuses isn’t facing the consequences of her actions.

Sounds very self entitled.

I could be wrong, but my memory is that codependents attract to many needy or difficult situations or people, but only codependent people end up with narcissists.

I am guilty as charged, your honor.

But who else besides someone that is other focused like a codependent would want to be with a selfish, self-focused narcissist? And want to stay and help them no matter what crap they pull?

I think this is overly harsh (a bit, not terribly so). In my case, the narcissist appears normal at first... s/he doesn't start bringing out the narcissistic bullshit until the co-dependent is already invested in the relationship. Non co-dependenet people probably get out at this point.

I have been reminded that your GF is not my wife and she would not be, if she wrote me that letter. That's the short definition of duck. I think a lot of people here use the word "run".

Oh. I understand now.

You don't get it.

My GF did not write that letter... it is something that she found on the internet. She sent it to me because she knows about my narcissistic wife and she is trying to make me feel better (she's co-dependent... she's trying to help me). She is trying to help me understand my co-dependency and my STBX's narcissism.

As I said before, No offense intended and none taken. Good luck in your divorce and this relationship. Strength and Honor, brother.

None taken. Same to you.

codependent people end up with narcissists.

In my reading, it seemed that people with BPD and narcissists go hand in hand. Lots of articles about love between someone with BPD and a narcissist. I didn't see anything about an association with CoDs. This is all very interesting.

My fch is CoD. I am not a narcissist.

I have issues with everyone who is with someone who turns out to be an asshole being labeled codependent. All therapy aimed at me was about my codependence. My WH was an addict. When he relapsed (first time since I'd known him), my first response was to kick him out. I let him back, he used again, and I told him I was divorcing him. He went to rehab, came back clean, I discovered his cheating, and had I not lost my mind and cheated back, I'd have left then. As it was, I went through the hell that we all do for several months sort of trying to R but not really believing in it and making plans B, C, D and E because I expected to use them. He relapsed again, I kicked him out, he came back, and it was IHS while I packed up boxes of stuff until I closed on my house and moved out.

But...I was called codependent because I didn't see that he was this fucked up before. I knew he was a bit selfish and the year after we got married wasn't great, but I accepted him for who he was because he had other traits that balanced that out some and I was serious about being married. I thought he was suffering from depression and was trying to help him through it as a spouse should and suggesting he get therapy and perhaps anti-depressants. Didn't know he was cheating the whole time. Didn't know he was heading towards drug relapse. I didn't have the full picture of what my marriage actually was to drive my actions. My acceptance of him and trying to help him that year wasn't weakness or low self-esteem, it was part being a life-partner.

Not everyone who winds up with a damaged person is codependent.

I could be wrong, but my memory is that codependents attract to many needy or difficult situations or people, but only codependent people end up with narcissists.

That's a bit of a broad brush there.

I was married to an BPD/NPD; I met her when I was 18; we divorced when I was 44. I didn't know her immature behavior would be a problem 25 years down the road - lots of 23 year olds aren't the most mature.

I would say that I had co-dependent tendencies during the end (when she really ramped up). But that was largely me trying to save my family and doing whatever I could to prevent it from breaking up. And once I figured that out (I was sacrificing myself and she wasn't going to change), that shit stopped - aka, I got divorced.

I'm the exact opposite of codependent in every other aspect of my life.

[This message edited by WornDown at 11:38 AM, May 16th (Thursday)]

Not everyone who winds up with a damaged person is codependent.

only codependent people end up with narcissists.

I think both of these statements are over-generalizations. They are true often but not always.

Plenty of people, I hope, kick out their spouse for being a drug addict and/or narcissist and never look back.

This is a guess ........maybe N brings on some codependent in people who never had it before. Maybe they were just compassionate, giving second chances, forgiving sorts of people who stayed in and didn't leave.

I agree that lots of N don't start out showing the worst sides. Just the opposite, they are doing their best mask performance to get you to bond with them. That's why the switch to the awful behaviour is so bewildering.

I see empaths as being able to relate to emotions, perceive a person's emotions clearly not always taking them on or responsibility for them. That's the codependent part of it. Empaths can fall into codependency, sure but many don't if they have a good family and good partner.

How do we talk about codependent qualities without using the word? I feel like people SO fight the label that they can't see problematic behaviors. I mean, people can be a little bit CoD. There are definitely degrees, or so I've seen.

I was married to an BPD/NPD; I met her when I was 18; we divorced when I was 44. I didn't know her immature behavior would be a problem 25 years down the road - lots of 23 year olds aren't the most mature.

Understood. But, my brother married an npd. We all saw it in her immediately, but he did not. She did also have a lot of qualities that we liked; I mean, npd are very charismatic! I love them! But I don't trust them or get too close (anymore). The reality is that npd do not change--ever. If someone's ex is npd, he/she always was. We have to own the dysfunctional side of ourselves that thought this charismatic, selfish, self-focused person would be a good spouse. They did not hide all parts of their selfishness, and yet we still wanted them.

It doesn't mean we could have done anything differently; it just means we have some learning to do. What's wrong with that?

Picking a healthy mate is much more difficult than it seems, especially if our own issues seem to be drawing us toward unhealthy types. My brother got a D from his skanky cheater npd ex. But he dated a few more narcs after that.

In my reading, it seemed that people with BPD and narcissists go hand in hand.

Yes, true. Another common combo. But I don't know much about BPD. How would those two personalities look in an R?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:07 PM, May 16th (Thursday)]

I see empaths as being able to relate to emotions, perceive a person's emotions clearly not always taking them on or responsibility for them.

This. I am an empath. I fell others emotions. I don't take them on as my responsibility. I usually retreat because it overwhelms me.

Idk how R would look for a BPD/NPD couple. I don't know how a BPD would handle that. Maybe lots of anger, but desperation that the NPD not leave?

I think that there are quite a few people around here that cop to being co dependent but who really scream borderline to me. I suspect that is because co dependent is viewed as just being overly nice, and as such kind of benign. Truth is, co dependency is much more insidious than that, but that’s besides my point.

A Borderline, it would seem to me, would be a perfect fit for a narcissist. Both fall in love hard and fast and then, when the narcissist gets abusive, the borderline would at least at first be too paralyzed to leave. But a borderline will not be ignored, Dan. So then the borderline who caught his or her partner cheating, might offer R but would fly into borderline rages, threaten or attempt suicide, swallow the abuse but then become passive aggressive or aggressive aggressive when R did not seem to be going the way they want it to. Any time a borderline feels abandoned, which is almost all the time if we are being honest, they will panic. That panic can result in arguments or anything else the borderline can do to get attention. As such there can be a tendency towards aches and pains and illnesses that leave the borderline in bed for days. Not saying that the injuries and illnesses are not real, but for non borderlines, the illness wouldn’t keep them stuck in bed, but borderlines want that attention.

A borderline with children would be the person who thinks that no one could parent the child like they do. They would infantalize the child such that he or she would feel totally dependent on that borderline parent and that’s because the borderline wants to be enmeshed with the child so that the borderline will never be alone or abandoned. If a divorce or separation occurs, and if the borderline has been successful in turning the child into a co dependent, the child might seem to favor the borderline parent or feel enraged toward the non borderline parent simply because the child has been taught to believe that they need the borderline to survive and/or that the borderline needs the child.

A narcissist in this situation would love the adoration periods with the borderline. After a borderline rage, borderlines will do almost anything to make things up to their partner. Praise and acts of kindness etc. which would give a lot of narc supply. Plus a narc would dig that someone was so in love that they would literally kill themselves to be with the narcissist, I would think.

Sometimes a narcissist will cheat sometimes the borderline will cheat. But for a borderline to leave a relationship on his or her own, it would be most likely (but not always) that he or she would have someone lined up either before the final break up or very quickly afterwards.

These are my thoughts having seen relationships like this play out.. I do not mean to say that all borderlines would behave in just this one way and all narcs likewise. And I am not saying that just because someone has a new partner quickly after a divorce that he or she is a borderline or a narc. This is just one example of what that kind of relationship might look like.

I could be wrong, but my memory is that codependents attract to many needy or difficult situations or people, but only codependent people end up with narcissists. Does that come in different levels or degrees of dysfunction? Almost certainly. But who else besides someone that is other focused like a codependent would want to be with a selfish, self-focused narcissist? And want to stay and help them no matter what crap they pull?

I know it's the male/female thing, but almost all codependent men that I know (several) only display symptoms in their R. Or with people pleasing. They have good boundaries with everything else. But many of the women are worse, being taken advantage of in many ways and with several people. And how do the men feel about their codependency? Resentful. They are very passive aggressive. It's ridiculous. The women are not resentful, but they are depressed with a tinge of self-loathing. I feel that people wear codependency differently. And they wear narcissism differently also.

Understood. But, my brother married an npd. We all saw it in her immediately, but he did not. She did also have a lot of qualities that we liked; I mean, npd are very charismatic! I love them! But I don't trust them or get too close (anymore). The reality is that npd do not change--ever. If someone's ex is npd, he/she always was. We have to own the dysfunctional side of ourselves that thought this charismatic, selfish, self-focused person would be a good spouse. They did not hide all parts of their selfishness, and yet we still wanted them.

It doesn't mean we could have done anything differently; it just means we have some learning to do. What's wrong with that?

Picking a healthy mate is much more difficult than it seems, especially if our own issues seem to be drawing us toward unhealthy types. My brother got a D from his skanky cheater npd ex. But he dated a few more narcs after that.

You're making codependency out like it is a personality disorder. It's not, and this makes no sense.

You - On one hand: Codependents ALWAYS choose NPDs - as if they are predestined to.

On the other, they can recognize it and fix themselves.

Codependency isn't a mental illness, but a behavior that can be learned/unlearned. That is very different from what the personality disordered are.

You also seem to imply that codependents are they way they are and that they are just blind to NPDs because they are codependent. The idea that the "men that I know (several) only display symptoms in their R", but yet they somehow display their codependency outside of the relationship as well ("They are very passive aggressive.")

It's also a bit insulting to hear you say that at 20 I should have known what my ex was going to turn into 20 years later - that that was somehow my fault (or your brother's), and that I had this mental illness. You are using the lens of time to make that judgement - You (I) know what to look for in NPDs - now after living with one for 25 years. I sure as shit didn't know what to look for when I was 20, and I'm pretty sure very few others do as well (You even say they have great qualities too - how is a 20 year old supposed to know which ones out weigh the others?). In fact, I've had that conversation with my oldest about a boyfriend she had - I saw the signs, she didn't. Being young and inexperienced in mental illness/relationships doesn't make you codependent.

The bottom line is you are saying (or strongly implying) that people who get into relationships with the personality disordered are ALWAYS codependent. I don't think that is the case at all.

I think people who are in relationships with the personality disordered can be come lost to themselves (hence the codependency) because they are trying to salvage their marriage/families after having made vows, put in years into the relationship, have kids, a mortgage, etc. By trying to salvage that, at any cost, results in said person developing codependent behaviors (cover for the mistakes of the spouse, etc.).

How many times have we heard, I'll do anything to save the marriage? Every single one of those in JFO are codependents? C'mon...

[This message edited by WornDown at 8:47 AM, May 17th (Friday)]

You - On one hand: Codependents ALWAYS choose NPDs - as if they are predestined to.

As with most of the time that people use the terms "always" or "never", there are exceptions.

The point of this post, for me, is that my STBXWW did a bunch of stuff to me beyond my control... that stuff is not my fault. I have (at least) two major co-dependent traits: (1) I accept blame and responsibility when I should not, and (2) I am a people pleaser. The original "Dear Victim" letter, to me, is about refusing to accept blame when I should not.

After my STBXWW and I separated and I decided to attempt dating, I specifically went looking for someone who made me "uncomfortable." At the time, I didn't understand the co-dependent/narcissist dynamic, but I understood that I tended to date people like my mother (a narcissist), which was "comfortable" for me. I also knew that someone who complimented me made me "uncomfortable".

It turns out that I found someone who is also a co-dependent. She compliments me often, in part because "words of affirmation" is one of her "love languages." Some of these compliments are very hard for me to hear; last week, in fact, I told her to shut up at dinner when she was "lecturing me" on how I am a really great dad for my kids.

This is not a new problem for me. My therapist knows about it... she was literally asking me about it on Wednesday during our bi-weekly session.

On the other, they can recognize it and fix themselves.

It took me a long time to recognize that I was co-dependent. Simultaneously, it took me a long-time to recognize my STBXWW is a covert narcissist. A major difference between us, though, is that I accepted my co-dependency label once I understood, whereas STBXWW has done everything possible to deny that she is a narcissist (note: I made the mistake of tell her that she was a narcissist when I figured it out... stupid me, I thought she'd go... really? Oh, I'll fix that STAT!).

Codependency isn't a mental illness, but a behavior that can be learned/unlearned. That is very different from what the personality disordered are.

Actually, if someone with a personality disorder accepts that they have a problem, they can get better. Unfortunately, their personality disorder usually means that they believe that they are correct and the rest of the world is wrong (usually).

I think people who are in relationships with the personality disordered can be come lost to themselves (hence the codependency) because they are trying to salvage their marriage/families after having made vows, put in years into the relationship, have kids, a mortgage, etc. By trying to salvage that, at any cost, results in said person developing codependent behaviors (cover for the mistakes of the spouse, etc.).

Yes! So much of your post resonated with me. I got married young - I didn’t see the warning signs (of which there were... because love bombing). It was a slow progression over many years, death by a thousand paper cuts, as things got worse and I covered for him more and more, and lost myself bit by bit. And narcs leverage all of that against you - the fear, the time you’ve put in, the kids, the shared life - to encourage the CoD behaviors to continue.