SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This very supportive group has more knowledge than any PhD. It seems to you that many are pushing you but it is because it is the old “been there, done that” info they live with.

As most of us have learned by now many PhD types are operating from repudiated models that have no basis in scientific fact (like, for example, Freudian theories which have been entirely dismantled in recent decades as nearly compete fiction, or as another example a model of human behavior that was just concocted as something borrowed from dramaturgy with no empirical evidence at all) and do harmful things like pathologize the victim, or act as co-conspirators to go along with a waywards’ attempts to blameshift or rewrite the history of the marriage.

SI has sliced the Gordian’s knot of a tangle of misinformation and misguided approaches by a therapeutic community that spent decades often more interested in “saving” marriages for the sake of it or as a trophy hunting exercise to make them feel better about their chosen profession. SI and other sites like it have crowdsourced information that has actively challenged old and incorrect assumptions about infidelity. Meanwhile the therapeutic community is beginning to “get with the program” by starting to acknowledge the real horror of betrayal trauma.

No one is pushing him to do anything. Everything we have said has been in the spirit of “this is our experience and this is what we would do, but it’s your decision.” That said, it’s clear from even the bare outlines provided here that his wife has revealed toxic, narcissistic, borderline-sociopathic behavior going on for an extended length of time ... that shows this is who she is.

He can make his own decisions, but we’re trying to help him thru the lens of our own experience. Every marriage is unique, but infidelity shares commonalities that are too frequent to be coincidental. Or ignored. I find the whistling past the graveyard attitude of some here regarding this aspect very off putting and frankly bizarre. The “cheaters script” has been borne out time and again. This is a case study in deliberately malicious entitled narcissistic behavior without a thought for the children or the faithful, hardworking husband.

Have you talked to a lawyer yet?

Have you told your kids and family?

Good luck

Sorry, I missed your post about not needing a lawyer as your sister is one and it is a shark

You expose an affair to kill it so you can work on your marriage.

If you’re 100% going to divorce DO NOT expose any more than you already have. Her job and reputation mean a great deal to her. That is your leverage to get good terms in the divorce.

Of course you’re smart enough not to say: "Give me X or I will expose you” because that’s blackmail. You just don’t feel like exposing right now.

Your wife, her boyfriends and maybe her girlfriend in the supposed open marriage will want to keep you happy during the divorce negotiations.

Go with the story she told her parents to explain your divorce. Once the divorce is final you can tell the truth to anyone you want.

You also want her making money so don’t mess with her job.

[This message edited by Michigan at 1:52 PM, September 2nd (Monday)]

In a different thread, BeyondRage, in a different forum you mentioned going to a website of Hartley and how his "advice" sickened you. It's actually Willard Harley. Way back in 2003 I found his website, too. I suspected/gut feeling WW was committing adultery. I found his site and followed the "advice" offered.

It caused me great harm. Life was great for WW. I started winning her back and she kept going to him for 3 more years. I never did get proof and out life was pretty good because she had it all. I found out 7 years after the PA ended.

You were much more astute than I regarding Harley. My excuse is I didn't know about the adultery, had no proof and it probably was the great stress at work that was causing her change in behaviour. I so wish I would have found SI at that time. I believe my life would have been much different.

Like you wife, mine went back to work after being a SAHM. She excelled. She didn't go running but travelled with him, someone she supervised, to do speaking engagements on trips she had planned. One was away 6 nights, one 4 nights and the others one or two nights. He lived 5 minutes from work which was quite convenient for nooners and quickies after work.

I write this to you so you know that there is at least one other BH out there with a similar story. There are actually many more.

Workplace adultery is one of the more difficult to detect. Apparently, so is travelling single for sporting events. Given the circumstances of your WW's adultery it may have been a long time before you found out. It was fortunate you came home early and discovered her betrayal. Had you not it very likely would have gone on much longer and possibly with other travelling runners.

You've been given a lot of input. I have to say I agree with most of it. You don't have to decide right away it you will R or D. It's your life. I must say that I lean towards D. These betrayals by your WW were well planned out and devious. She ran the show. It also seems to me that you were totally blindsided by this which means she could do this and carry on with you as the loving, supportive wife. Again, though, it is up to you.

You have done so many things right in such a short time. Things I wish I would have done way back when. Best wishes for you and your daughters (I have 3).

I also read Harley back when I was merely in the suspicion mode. It took me about a week to realize he was full of shit (one might even say malevolently full of shit). I think he’s one of those great PhD types someone lauded above.

His entire emotional needs matrix is blameshifting pathologizing of the betrayed. A case study in mindfuckery. “Emotional needs” is a bottomless pit, again without any empirical evidence to back up such theorizing.

No spouse will ever be able to meet 100 percent of the “emotional needs” of another spouse. It’s a wild goose chase and doing the pick me dance. Screw that.

There is huge, huge wisdom in Proverbs applicable for all time.

I find the whistling past the graveyard attitude of some here regarding this aspect very off putting and frankly bizarre. The “cheaters script” has been borne out time and again. This is a case study in deliberately malicious entitled narcissistic behavior without a thought for the children or the faithful, hardworking husband.

Agreed. There seem to be some that feel it's best for the BS to try and understand the WS so they can know what drove the betrayal and then give the WS guidance and training so they won't repeat.

BeyondRage, you are handling this with strength and conviction. It will serve you well whether you D or R.

Kudos to BeyondRage!

It's awesome to see a JFO victim know exactly what they've got to do and how to proceed.

Most of us should be taking advice from BeyondRage. He really gets it.

We all wish him well in dealing with this mess.

Your WW is almost 20 years older than these guys. They are not likely in this for any long term relationship. They are closer in age to your daughter's than your WW.

She needs to see a counselor for sure. Something in there related to aging probably and getting off on young guys finding her attractive. She needs to find this answer before there can be any hope of reconciliation. How can you ever be sure it won't happen again?

The OM(s) are most likely married or involved with someone else and have lied to her or she is lying to you. They are probably on Facebook or something similar as friends of her's. Look there. I'd expose to their SOs if I could find them. Also with the timeline she needs to explain who all knew about this double life. How many of her friends were complicit?

I run a bit myself. Most all of the races have their results on-line. Worth going back through her calendar for the races she supposedly did and seeing if she has a finishing time at the race or not. You may find that she never actually went to those races and you can use that as a check against her timeline. If she is competitive at all she keeps a running diary and that should be able to tell you all the races she has supposedly done.

You’re doing great. Take care of yourself. You seem to know your own mind. Whether you ultimately decide to R or D you will receive support. You are still new to this. Let your rage settle and keep moving forward. I agree with beenthereinco. He has given you great advice. Just sending you support. Whatever you decide you will be on an emotional rollercoaster for an extended period. Don’t fight it. Let it happen. I agree your WW needs to be in counseling no matter wha5 happens. Sounds like mid life crisis shit to me. Good luck.

Great advice on the running times and diary.

And I disagree with others saying if you’re going to D, you don’t need the truth. I’d urge you to consider getting the truth as a protective measure for you and your family — and to ensure this borderline sociopath you are married to can’t sanitize this.

She’s brought strange men into the sanctum of your family. You need to know who they are, how many there are, and they deserve to have their marriages imploded as well — not as vengeance but because it’s the right thing to do for the OBS’s. Those other OBS deserve the gift of truth, agency and autonomy, which they are being robbed of if they don’t know. Same thing goes for the spouse of her swinging whore girlfriend.

Also consider an alienation of affection lawsuit if it’s applicable where you live. Likely to go nowhere but it will put it on the record and make the OM’s have to deal with the fallout they so casually caused. You ought to put their names in the divorce papers too as the cause of divorce and irreconcilable differences.

I do agree with those saying to make sure she keeps her job. You don’t want to be divorce raped in addition to everything else. Divorce laws are biased against men, so make sure you don’t get screwed.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:30 PM, September 2nd (Monday)]

Great job Beyond Rage. Like others have said, you don't have to decide any time soon if you want to R or D.

Personally, if it happened to me, I'd be talking to my lawyer about D. At least to see what the probable outcome would be.

BR, your story reminds me of Spaceghost0007’s. Although his WW’s AP was older, there is a common element of escape after the kids leave home. Perhaps there is some wisdom in his story for you to consider. I think it is called, “Thought we had a great marriage”. You’re doing well in spite of the shit sandwich you’ve been served. Keep it up!

If i had a dollar for every story i hard like this. This should be a cautionary tale to every married woman! Don't even entertain fired who lead you down paths, You know you shouldn't be going down! Don't get me wrong there is no excuse for what you wife did. This is all on her but i have read tons of stores where wives are lead into situations that make them ripe for affairs by their so called friends! If you value your marriage don't put yourself in these types of situations! Sounds like your wife got hooked on the sex and whasn't even thinking about the consequences that could follow what she was doing. She was using the two young morons for sex! Now she my loose her whole world because of it.....

Now she WILL lose her whole world because of it.....

Fixed it for you.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:02 PM, September 2nd (Monday)]

She is coming home tomorrow after work. I have told her she is not sleeping in the same room with me. She says she doesn't really need a timeline. Says its all in her journal that she has with her and that she does have one more undisclosed e mail that she used to talk to girlfriend about what they were doing that will answer a lot of questions.

She told me to PLEASE make sure I ask questions only if I want the true blunt answers. Promises not to lie ( like I am convinced of that). But we are alike in that she is direct and to the point so I believe I prefer that to the alternative.

She will have no idea that she is taking a polygraph until after I am done listening and checking this out.

I am NOT telling my kids now, and she is not quitting her job. If she quits the job she will either get another one just like it or go back to part time teaching spinning at health club and yoga and zumba, an environment teaming with young bodies. And this had nothing to do with anyone on her job or place of employment. Sorry, if you do not trust your wife s boundaries yo're safer with her in a business suit than wandering around gyms in yoga pants that hide nothing, which my friends kid are the greatest invention since the light bulb.

Great idea on checking the races. She does keep a log of how she did, which usually results in a high finish. Thanks for that advice.

I am not worried about the credit cards. I check them anyway all the time. Nothing unusual. And her father is a retired cardiologist who has more money than he knows what to do with.

If I do not like the way the talk goes, I will tell my attorney sister first.

She has sent me a long e mail of apology but I know from reading here to watch actions not words.

I am reading all the advice and thank you again.

[This message edited by BeyondRage at 5:15 PM, September 2nd (Monday)]

Verify the OM's identity. There are usually a lot of lies and cover ups around that.

It sucks but you'll get through this one way or another.

The thing is the capability is there and usually there is more of a background than you may realize.

You don't want to go through this again which happens.

Don't be surprised if she's blame shifted this onto you with her parents.

The old H was mean to me and made me cheat BS.

She told me to PLEASE make sure I ask questions only if I want the true blunt answers.

This is one way of testing the waters to see if she can get you to back off. It’s also a shitty, narcissistic, entitled and threatening way of putting it: “Do not ask me questions unless you want me to twist the knife deeper in your back and fondly recall all of my sexual escapades, asshole.”

Think about that. If it were me, I would ask her ten thousand questions and make her squirm. Her “blunt” answers terminology is a bluff. When she has to start talking about more details, you’ll see just how businesslike she can be. Practice your death stare.

And look, man, if “blunt” is all she has to offer, then she’s confirming the narcissistic borderline personality many of us suspect her to be, based on the details you’ve provided here.

Do not get too engaged in the “skein of fuckedupedness” pulling on an endless thread trying to figure out who she is or how she could do this. The fact is she’s shown you who she is and you don’t need to peek over the wall into the land Mordor that is her mind to know all the dark, twisted reasons she did this. She'll have to leave with that. Stick to the facts.

You are handling everything right. Do not give an inch. Not. One. Inch.

Do not let her control the narrative and think about how she is already trying to manipulate the situation (if not you) with her apology email. I am quite sure without even reading it that it is 90 percent self-pitying blather.

You’ve not told the daughters yet. Your call. You already know she was wiling to mislead your in-laws.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:22 PM, September 2nd (Monday)]

Marz

Verify the OM's identity. There are usually a lot of lies and cover ups around that.

On the list to do, even if I have to hire PI, which

The advantage I feel I have is I read here and I believe have figured out what NOT TO DO and some things I MUST DO. That is why i say the site helped me before I ever posted anything