SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So, now I've got that off my chest, here's what's been going on. Prepare yourselves (I've already battened down the hatches)...

Monday. The fair. My WW and I took my DS as you know. Things were very awkward (you'll recall my WW left me two days before) but we hopefully hid it from our son. We got home (a hundred yards away, hence why the fair is an annual activity, each time it visits), put our DS to bed and, if I recall correctly, I didn't say much other than 'I expect you've got to get going' and was determined not to get drawn into anything. She was kind of spoiling for a fight, or at least it seemed that way to me.

My WW asked why I had ignored her earlier. Mid-morning she'd text me (see back a couple of pages for the whole thing) and, when I didn't reply (from work), she called a couple of times and I didn't pick up, quite deliberately.

In the midst of this, if you remember, I was trying to get some advice from the Family Law Solicitor at the CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau). They eventually called back (the next day?) to arrange an appointment but I missed the call, as events kind of overtook me. So, no, I haven't yet had that extra advice, nor have I filed for D.

So, anyway, back to Monday evening... She went on to explain she'd desperately wanted to see me that morning as she HAD to talk to me. And I'd ignored her. I asked what did she expect??? I can't remember now if she claimed on Monday evening that she knew she'd made a terrible mistake (in leaving me), or whether that came later, but... we ended up in a conversation for hours (I know, start hitting me with those 2x4s, because it's - from your perspective - about to get a lot worse) until I asked her to stay. At first she claimed she 'had' to go back (to him), acting again as if she had no choice in any of this. I told her she did and eventually (around 11pm) she decided to stay. Nothing happened, she just stayed here that night. She offered to sleep elsewhere but, as you know if you've followed this from the beginning, we don't exactly have a spare room. Anyway, I'll confess - I wanted her with me.

The next day (Tuesday), I went to work, leaving my WW at home. It was a stressful day with her needing some space to think (I know, don't say it) and me feeling like I'd let my guard down again, been reeled back in and needing to know if she would be leaving me for the second time that evening. She was a wreck all day, the few times I spoke to her. But no sympathy - to be honest I just felt like I was being played with again, and was resisting the temptation to beg or plead with her to see sense.

Come the afternoon she asked if I would pick our DS up from school. Maybe I was being a doormat again but I didn't have a problem with that, if it gave her some more time. I took him home and my WW asked if I would take him to his Tuesday afternoon club on my own. I wasn't overly impressed but agreed - then she said she'd follow shortly behind. We'd talk in the bar.

Soon as I got there, I was accosted by the 'friend' whose driveway my WW used the Saturday she left me. She came straight over and said, 'I'm SO sorry'. I fired back at her (later her husband said for a second he'd thought he'd have to step in) that she had covered for my wife so we had nothing to say to each other. She explained that she had no idea what was going on until that Saturday. We ended up talking and I believed that her & her husband were truly shocked and couldn't believe any of it. That said, she is a bit of a gossip so I'm still amazed my WW would have confided in her (to her own ends, that night) of all people.

My WW turned up. Those 'friends' hung about making chit chat until the end so there was no time for my wife & I to talk. By then it didn't matter - I knew she was going back to the OM and, frankly, I had nothing left to say. It panned out beautifully - the whole club emptied, leaving my WW sat on her own looking very teary. I gave her a peck on the cheek, told her I'd always loved her, and left to take our DS home.

That was the end of it - this time it really was (again, I know, say it all you like - I've got my hard hat on). I didn't even feel upset. Just numb again. I called those 'friends' and learnt a few new details. It helped to kill the evening before I went to bed.

Then, out of the blue, my WW called me at around 10pm. In all this time, I'd not ONCE heard her sound so distraught, so REMORSEFUL. And yes, I know the difference. She sounded different. She said she'd not left the club for a long while after me, sat in the car park for well over an hour then gone to the OM's, finished it for good and collected her stuff. She begged me to let her come home but said she'd go anywhere else if I told her to. She said she'd known since the morning that she'd made the biggest mistake of her life and felt she was cracking up/having some kind of breakdown. She told me she'd do ANYTHING to put things right, whatever it took to save our M.

I was pretty unimpressed - that's probably the best word for it. I didn't really know what to say, except for her to come home (and that I didn't say right away, nor very enthusiastically). I couldn't be pleased, excited, relieved, any of those things. Too much damage had already been done, and I was more than resigned to my new future - I was going to see my solicitor (bypassing the CAB) first thing in the morning. So this was potentially a huge turnaround of events, yet it didn't feel like it. She came home around 10.45. We didn't say much to each other. She said she wanted to stay downstairs for 15 minutes. I went to bed.

I took the Wednesday off. Our son does after-school club on Wednesdays so we'd have the day to ourselves. I can't remember much to say really, except we went to the pub for lunch where I got annoyed with my WW for telling me what I apparently already knew (e.g. about her first A, 2/3 years ago) and I left her for a bit and went for a walk in the woods to clear my head. Then, on the way home, things got a little heated and my WW demanded I let her out of the car, so I did. I got around the corner and realised this wasn't grown-up behaviour so went back. I found her in a kids' play area, sat on a bench crying.

Thursday was the day I'd booked our short break for. My WW decided to come - or, rather, asked me if she could. I'd always wanted her to - I booked it a few days before she walked out on me, if you recall. I knew it would be odd but I (naively) thought it might do us some good. And I vowed I'd do my best NOT to talk about the elephant in the room (not that she expected this, to be fair).

So that's pretty much what happened. We've all been away for the last few days. And, all things considered, we had a reasonable time. Our DS had a great time, so that's all that matters anyway. My WW was very quiet a few times, which got me wondering. But then I did the same. Things were far from 'right' and I don't expect them to be for a very, very, very long time (if we even get that far).

For all I know, my WW has been texting the OM every day since last Tuesday. I know he's contacted her. She's shown me one or two 'I love you my princess'-type messages. And no, I haven't yet laid down any boundaries - though she's no idiot and knows I expect No Contact. I haven't yet given in to the temptation to snoop - naively again, I feel like we don't stand a chance if I have to snoop in order to get to the truth. But, at the same time, don't think I suddenly feel like I can believe a word that comes out of my wife's mouth.

So this is where we're at. She's 'back' - we're 'back together' - though this is not the same as saying we are in R. No way. I'll freely admit that remorse I heard ONCE, when she was begging me to let her come home, has been conspicuous in its absence. In many ways I'd say nothing has changed. So my guard is still up.

But this IS what I want so please bear with me and trust me, even if you 'know' I'm making a huge mistake. I know - we all do - how much this betrayal hurts so do you really think I ever want to feel like that again??? This is a risky business and I know a far quicker way to happiness - to D and (in time) to start again with someone else who I can trust. But, right now, this is what I want.

I'm ready for all your 2x4s, I really am. I'll only fight back if I think someone's unfair in their criticism. The rest I can take. I'm a big boy.

I'm sure there's more to tell you. A week's gone by and you know how this stuff messes with your mind and your perception of the days going by...

[This message edited by saveus at 4:01 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)]

saveus, nobody can TELL you what to do. We can only give advice based on personal and collective experience. There are plenty of men who have BTDT and got the t-shirt several times over. You have already started your collection.

What we are trying to do is save you from regrets later in life. We are NOT saying “throw her shit out and divorce the bitch”, we are trying to explain the best ways, the ways that have proved to be right time and time again, to find out where your relationship is going and whether or not reconciliation is possible for you. The longer it drags on, the worse it will be in the long term.

We know that NC is a must. I am years and years out and my BIGGEST regret by a country mile is that I didn’t make a NC letter a deal breaker if WH didn’t do it and then to stick to it. The other was not throwing him out when he didn’t go NC. All that did was let MOW know the door was ajar. And she has been the bane of my life ever since.

MC should be there on the table. It doesn’t matter if she keeps her mouth shut for the whole session, but what couple counselling does is allow you to say what you need to say, to discuss it in a controlled atmosphere, for your counsellor to guide you in an area where you have no previous experience. It highlights problems and issues behind dysfunctional behaviour, forces you to examine inner emotions and share them, it improves your communication skills and strengthens your bond. I cannot think of a single reason to NOT go to MC. And your WW should seek counselling for herself. There are two websites for listings and you will find someone suitable near you.

I also wish I had immediately set aside my own cash fund. It took me months and months to do it. I still have that fund and add to it fairly regularly. fWH may or may not know – I really don’t care. I have several accounts in my name and we only have a current account and one credit card in joint names

I saw a solicitor twice. The first meeting gave me peace of mind. I would know what to expect in the event of divorce. I went again 6yrs after d-day and was told I could divorce him due to his “established pattern of behaviour” – again, peace of mind.

You have been here long enough to know what you should be doing. Whatever your choices are, please know that this is one of the best places you can come to any time of day or night. As for the 2x4’s, as we say, take what you need from posters and leave the rest.

Good to see you back and posting.

First off mate, welcome back. Good to see you posting.

No one here will tell you that you NEED to Divorce your wife, but from my point of view, she's still heavy in the fog, and she's hedging her bets. I don't really think she gets that what she is doing/has done is unacceptable. As you have intimated, she is starting to show SOME remorse (whether it is remorse, or merely guilt noting her family and friends are probably giving her 2x4s remains to be seen), but she is still texting this guy inappropriately under your nose.

Do not sleep with her until you have had an STD test. Well I suppose it's academic now, but seriously, you need to get tested. Who knows what this thrice-married arseclown masquerading as a man is carrying.

Secondly, at the very least, you need to start making the rules. Your WW has been playing you and OM like a fiddle since day one. No contact with OM, as of right now, or she moves her arse out. I know you don't want to make waves, but this is a wave you need to make. 7 months on, and my fWW told me that her respect for me grew exponentially owing to the way I handled her weakness. See the lawyer, have the D paperwork ready (you don't even have to file, just make sure she knows you could at any time) and enforce NC. Your wife doesn't get 'time' to ponder and think about which man keeps her warm and is intimate with her; it's you or him. It's not hard.

Trust me mate, if you capitulate and let her play this out on HER terms, and it will set the tone for what is left of your marriage. 'Well saveus was so understanding last time, and I didn't really suffer any consequences other than a bit of self-loathing....so screw it, I might see where this takes me. I mean, he'll take me back, I'm awesome!' See what I mean?

Good to see you are doing the 180 in some respects though. Stay strong brother, and keep loving your son.

She might have realised what SHE'S losing out on if she stays with OM.

She hasn't yet seen what she's done to you. She doesn't yet see the devastation she brought to you and her child.

She's cake eaten all this time. I suspect that her and OM have decided that it's better, for some reason, for her to stay with you. If she's still texting him then it's not over. They might just be keeping it on the down low for a while.

She doesn't get it.

She has not, or is not, suffering any ramifications for her behaviour.

There needs to be ground rules and strict adherance to them otherwise she will continue to disrespect you. If the rules and your anger drive her away it is not that you have driven her away becuase you never really had her. She wants to rug sweep and move on without dealing with you or your pain or resolving her issues.

By not being strong you are giving her permission to do it again or carry it on.

Please respect yourself. No one else will.

Welcome back, and know that any advice given by this member is always to the point, not sugar coated, and can be a harsh in tone, but is ALWAYS meant to allow you to protect the two most important people in your life....Your son, and yourself.

Now to offer a few points:

This is a risky business and I know a far quicker way to happiness - to D and (in time) to start again with someone else who I can trust. But, right now, this is what I want.

Don't kid yourself that the quickest road to happiness is either of these paths. They both suck, and they both hurt. They both also require you to heal yourself, and become strong again, or you won't heal properly from it, and end up in the same situation again, in the future with her or with someone else.

You had set some consequences with her, and she became "remorseful" (I believe what you really saw was fear, more like scared shitless). So you allowed her to come home, because you saw a change, and you don't want to be alone. I get it. I allowed my spouse to keep breaking NC and gave one more chance about 5 too many times.

Now she has no consequence and is back to fence sitting, she is still in contact with this guy. That will keep her foggy. Even if she wants in her head to R, she will still be pinning for him because he is still giving her ego kibbles to munch up.

Please do get your legal advice, and please stick with the 180 for YOU. Clear your head, decide what you need for YOU to be strong, and be the best Dad you can be for your son.

(((and strength))))

Hi saveus. Glad you are back. Glad that you and your son are well. I'm not coming along with a 2x4. I don't think much has changed for your with WW except that she's back in the house. Your situation is the same and you have a ton of advice through this thread on how to deal with it.

Where I'm mostly concerned is that son of yours. I do not want to project, but I can tell you from experience what it was like growing up in a toxic environment with parents that were in false R. Both of my parent's were wrapped up in their own nonsense and had their head up their arse's. Unfortunately my brother did not live through it. Not that things are going to get that extreme. My story is far from typical. But right now, with what you have going on in your house between you and WW, it's very easy to lose sight of what's most important. Your WW sure as hell isn't thinking of him. Bottom line is, whether your son knows the details or not, the environment in your home is forever changed. It's what you choose to do with that environment that matters. Don't lose sight of that. As young as he is, he may not understand, but he for sure can sense what is going on. Even if you try and appear "normal" in front of him much as my parent's tried to. I'm not suggesting giving him the details of what's going on, but I would at the very minimum engage him and reassure him of his surroundings. If this shit is going to continue, have you let his school know what is going on so that if he should start to act out in anyway they can help keep an eye on him? Or, not that you need to take him now, but what about lining up a child psychologist for him?

Things are really bad in your home and since you are so deep in it, you may not even see how bad. My parents sure didn't. It's what you do with that environment in your home is what's most important. Your WW assuredly not think of that or anything else but her own "problems". Engage your son. Talk to the school. Line up IC for your son. Or maybe you have already done all of this and if I'm off the mark, my apologies.

Still pulling for your family.

yop

Thanks so much for the replies so far. Really great stuff as ever and I'm truly grateful for the support. I know all you want is for me to avoid the mistakes you yourselves made.

@UKgirl: NC is 100% non-negotiable. I just haven't made that 100% clear since last Tuesday, leaving 1% of ambiguity that my WW could well be exploiting (I don't know she's replied to the OM). As for MC, I don't know how I could ever convince my WW to go. She has a long-standing phobia (that's the best word) of talking to strangers about her innermost feelings. It's fairly set in stone at this point. That's not to say I've given up. It's high time I went back for some IC myself, so I'll sort that this week. That may have an effect in itself - I'll bet you now that my WW is quite happy that I've not been back since session 1. As for finances, there is nothing to speak of anyway though I cleared our joint account some time ago. It didn't go unnoticed so I told my wife in no uncertain terms that I would no longer be funding her extra-marital activities.

@Hurthalo: I forgot to say - I had the 'all clear' on all my STD checks a couple of days ago. That was obviously a big relief. My WW still claims she will get herself checked regardless (but hasn't yet). We haven't slept together in weeks. I absolutely know you're right about laying down the law now, or living with the consequences at some point down the line. I DO want to make waves, I really do, and I intend to. We just need time to sit down and talk like adults. And it's half term here so we have our DS at home. My WW doesn't need much of an excuse to avoid/evade difficult conversations. I have to make sure she can't. As for having my solicitor draw up the D paperwork, I'd do this but for the cost AND the fact that my WW is so stupidly stubborn she's likely to act as though it means nothing. It's SO hard to get through to her.

@allatsea: You're 100% right - she may have finally realised what she's set to lose but in NO WAY has she yet appreciated what's she's done to me. No way. Or she's doing a very good impersonation of somebody who doesn't get it. I promise you now I will not let her sweep this under the rug. I KNOW for a fact she'd happily let things die down over, I don't know, a month or three then expect it all to be forgotten. I can't get my head around it but I've learnt not to wonder how or why.

@tushnurse: You're quite right of course. I never meant moving on and finding someone new (whether in 6 months or 6 years from now) would be a walk in the park. It's exactly what I HAVE NEVER WANTED, for a whole host of reasons. I do feel exactly what you say - that now she is 'back' there are no consequences and any pressure she felt to look at what she stood to lose is suddenly off, hence the feeling I've had of nothing really having changed.

@yearsofpain25: I am of course very concerned about the effect of this on our DS. When my wife reappeared last week, one morning he was noticeably clingy to her for - seemingly - no obvious reason. It even prompted my WW to ask me if I had told him anything!! (I hadn't). We bickered under our breaths on the way home yesterday so I can't pretend we've always managed to shield him from things not being quite right. All this worries me, of course it does. I haven't spoken to the school yet - I was about to, when my WW left me. She is (no surprises here) vehemently against the idea as she sees no reason (to let anyone else know - even just that we're going through a rough patch). I will absolutely take your advice to heart, keeping in mind your own experience, and you know I will always put my beautiful boy first, above all else. That means accepting I probably haven't been doing as good a job of it as I've been thinking I have.

I will always put my beautiful boy first, above all else. That means accepting I probably haven't been doing as good a job of it as I've been thinking I have.

With your situation it's almost impossible to a good job in this area. There is so much shit going on it's unavoidable. You can see the effects it's having on your child. Your WW is a ping pong ball in and out of his life regardless of the A. There is no stability for him and that's only part of the problem. He's very unsure of his surroundings right now. I was and I was 16 and knew a lot of what was going on. That's exactly why he needs help. The two of you should take him to IC sessions and they will tell you the effects of the environment are having on your son and what you and WW need to do to ensure his emotional safety. It's ok to ask for help. Especially from the school. Of course WW doesn't want to look like the bad guy, but this is much bigger than that. Ask for help for this stuff. I certainly don't have answers for it, but a child psychologist certainly will. I guarantee you one of the first thing as child psychologist will tell you is to let the school know what is going on in the house.

yop

Good responses mate, you are moving in the right direction.

I know all too well how you feel about shielding your son from this; I still feel sad to this day when I recall the number of affair-related conversations I had with my fWW that escalated into arguments while our precious 18m old daughter (at the time) just sat looking sad in her highchair while eating her dinner :(

And institute that NC asap. It's half the battle. Also MAKE her go to MC/IC. That should be a condition of R (as well as NC with dick features). She gets no choice in this...primarily because she is incapable of making choices to begin with.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 8:53 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)]

Just my observations -

She has a long-standing phobia (that's the best word) of talking to strangers about her innermost feelings.

Except where the OM is concerned. I needed to point that out because you should not make excuses for her behavior in a way that you accept why she cannot take the necessary steps to own her shit.

You missed an opportunity to lay down the rules (NC, full transparency) strictly when she begged to come back to the house. Now you have to bargain with her again. All I see from your post is FEAR.

She is back to cake-eating again. Sorry.

Take what you need and leave the rest, is a common statement here.

I know you may not be ready to act yet, but it seems that you are getting close.

You need to figure out for you, what you are willing to tolerate, and what you are not. Make those your bare minimum requirements for even attempting to go forward. From that point, you can add and change as you see fit. But here is the sticking point. If you do not make sure that she has consequences for any of these things then it all means nothing.

Allowing her back without saying you can only come back if you do A, B, C, you have changed nothing, and would even venture to say weakened your stance in all of this. I see you repeating a lot of the same mistakes many of us have made. It is hard to watch. Just believe us when we say you have to be willing to lose the M to save it, and you will never save your M by being the nice guy. These are two of the most truthful statements you will ever read.

I don't think you've made mistakes. It's natural to want to let someone who created all this pain have what she wants. She's driving this, and she's sending very mixed messages.

Whatever your path is, it's your path. You have to do what you need to do to create peace for yourself and your son.

Getting ticked off at people here is natural - I did it myself at first. This site is about how a marriage survives infidelity. Your wife isn't willing to take any steps for the marriage. You're not ready to move forward yet. So you see these messages as hostile. It's not personal. And, as you can see, we don't quite agree with each other all the time as well.

I'm sorry your wife is making this so difficult. At this point, SI is most valuable as a sounding board, even if it seems frustrating.

Hi Saveus, glad to see you're still hanging in there. Your wife needs serious IC right now. She is still playing a game. She is still the drama queen. And you know what, life is too damn short to have a ton of drama dropped in your lap all of the time.

Your MIL - that sounds to me like your MIL doesn't want to get in the middle of this and knows her daughter well enough to know what is going on and all of the drama being created by her.

Her wife is always wanting to talk yet says nothing. You should never forget the last time she said she knew she made a big mistake when she looked around at the pictures, and then she left you. I think that is huge and never forget it.

How many times will she walk out and how many times can you continue to see her come back.

I got annoyed with my WW for telling me what I apparently already knew (e.g. about her first A, 2/3 years ago) and I left her for a bit and went for a walk in the woods to clear my head.

I might have missed something weeks ago, I don't remember reading that your wife had another affair several years ago. And this is huge...did you know this before the other day?

saveus.

mistakes? we all make them.

you can take allot of wrong turns and still finally make it to where you want to go. and even if you dont make it to where you want to go you will end up some place and maybe that some place will be fine enough for you.

every one of us have taken different paths toward our own healing. whether that be R or D or something in between. we all end up where we choose to end up.

and there is no right or wrong place to end up.

you have to make the choices that are right for you. even if those choices lead to more ddays.

BUT

you cant make smart choices about what direction to take unless you know where you are NOW. So I strongly suggest you start doing detective work to see what is going on between your WW and OM.

If you are the safe guy with the stable job and a house and the father of her kid. and if OM is the fun guy she is madly in love with. you need to know that if you are going to make smart decisions.

You need to know your reality before you decide.

Hi Saveus, glad you're back and positing.

No one can tell you what you're doing is right or wrong, because you are the only one living your life, and you are the one that has to live with your decisions. I think we all know you are doing what you think is best in your specific situation, and amidst the crap you've been dealt.

Please know that, while some people here may post in a more abrasive manner, I think everyone posting does so because they are concerned for you, and want what's best for you. I think all of us have seen and heard so many stories here on SI, and in our own lives, and we all just want to share that experience to help shield others from more pain if we can. I hope that makes sense. I don't think anyone here had any intention of beating you down, criticizing, or making you feel bad.

As for your wife, it's good that you are leery of her behavior and intentions. I do think that you might want to make a list for yourself of your expectations for R when you are ready to do so. Your head is swimming, I get that. However, I'm afraid your wife may begin to think that it's all over, and that she's going to be able to rug sweep. It's probably what she's attempting to do, now. The sooner you share your expectations, the sooner you'll see if she's truly ready to try to R, or if she's expecting you to rug sweep. Truly remorseful WS's will be open, and understanding when their BS expresses their expectations and needs for R. If she's defensive, or blame-shifting, etc… then you'll know she's definitely not there yet.

And, snooping? It's not snooping if she's being completely transparent. Is it that you're afraid of what you'll find, and you're not ready to deal with it yet? I get that… but, eventually you'll need to know for your sanity.

The lack of willingness for your WW to go NC is a sign that she is still using one of you as her back up plan. In her current state, she probably swings like a pendulum between you while enjoying the drama she is creating. As long as her world keeps turning, she will keep swinging from one to the other. Any NC letter would have little meaning at this stage.

With regard to MC, as I said, she can sit there and say absolutely nothing for the whole hour. And she can do that for as many sessions as she pleases. If your DS was in a road traffic accident resulting in several broken bones, would you refuse physiotherapy on the grounds that it might cause him some discomfort or even pain even though you know refusal to have physio would delay or reduce his recovery? Of course not. Your marriage has been in a car crash – you need therapy to help you recover. Yes it will be painful at times, but you will come out stronger and in better shape than without it. MC is not about blaming and ripping her to pieces. It’s about making healthy relationships. What is there to have a phobia about? Her phobia is not about revealing herself to a stranger – it’s about revealing herself to you. She may also fear finding nothing much in herself that she likes.

Anyway, you sound a little more accepting, less desperate and finally becoming (ever so slightly) detached. Whatever happens, keep that solicitor’s appt when it comes. Try to stay on the 180 and don’t feed her ego or her drama. See to yourself and your son.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 3:49 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]

And mate, please elaborate on this being your wife's possibly second affair in 3 years? I might have misread that, but if not, this behaviour demands a strong response and IC/MC is essential.

Morning all (well, it's morning here anyway)...

@Hurthalo: I'm trying to find the time and space to really consider what is and isn't acceptable to me. I mean, in one way it's really pretty straightforward. But finding the time to think clearly is something I've struggled with since D-Day 1. Let alone finding the time to talk with my WW. Last night we were in late after our DS's Tuesday sports club. Quite frankly I couldn't be bothered as I knew the negative response I'd get, so I had a bath and went to bed. Not productive nor exactly assertive on my part, granted. Today my WW has a day off and has made it clear she wants some QT (quality time) with our son, i.e. without me. Of course that makes me paranoid... But I'll be reminding her on my way out the door to work this morning what the consequences will be if she were to see 'him' again.

@JDuff: Good observation. But then that's talking to me, which (until this year - or should I say her first A a few years ago) was always a different proposition. And don't think she's exactly offered much up in the last six weeks. Most confessions I've had to coerce out of her - or she's believed I already knew something/had found something out. But you're right - in no way do I mean to make excuses for her behaviour. I will consider making MC/IC a condition of R but I fear if I make this a dealbreaker, the deal will be broken before we even get started.

@tushnurse: Figuring out my limits and bare minimum requirements is absolutely next on my list. Problem is I have to work today. Consequences I struggle with. D seems to be my only option and my WW is quite capable of making out even that doesn't phase her. I kicked myself (hard) when I read your comment about the night I let her come home. Because you are SO RIGHT. I missed an opportunity there to force some real changes. I'm an idiot. Now I don't seem able to make my WW remember how she felt that night... SOOOOO frustrating.

@RedSoxNation: Thanks again. Great to know sometimes I'm not completely useless at all this surviving stuff. Because that's all it is, really.

@craig2001: Your observation re my MIL sounds pretty fair to me. My in-laws have always been great to me. I don't intend on putting them any more in the middle than they have been. As for how many times my WW can walk out and I will have her back - the answer is once. The next time she can sob down the phone all she likes and I'll be telling her she'd better go find somewhere else to sleep. Her car, maybe. My immediate problem is I STILL haven't made plain my expectations/boundaries/minimum requirements of her behaviour, nor any consequences. I'm a fool, I know.

@craig2001/@Hurthalo: Oh, and yes, she had an earlier PA 2/3 years ago, with a neighbour (who I've never seen since, interestingly). It's all in this thread somewhere. This was my D-Day 3 on 4th May. I didn't know about this until I snooped at her texts inside the last six weeks - though of course I had misgivings back then about the time she was spending with this OM. Not to mention I took a call from his then girlfriend alerting me to their A, told her she was wrong then sucked up the lies my WW dished out. Maybe I wanted to believe them.

@Razor/@TXMommy: Detective work/snooping... I am still strongly resisting the temptation to look at my WW's latest texts (that's assuming she's not been extremely careful of late). But she's not being completely transparent and my sixth sense is telling me all is not what it seems... But yes, TXMommy, you've hit the nail on the head - I am terrified of what I will find. Last time it didn't matter. We were heading to the end and then my WW walked out. Now she's 'back', physically if not mentally, and I almost KNOW I'm going to find something that ought to be a dealbreaker - yet, as I've admitted already - I still haven't told my WW what constitutes a dealbreaker for me (not that you'd think you'd have to)... I feel like I've left just enough ambiguity for my WW to 'innocently' exploit. Like when she CALLED THE OM THE MORNING AFTER SHE FINISHED WITH HIM (so, must have been last Wednesday while I was on the school run) to see if he was OK. What??? Didn't I mention that??????

My immediate problem is I STILL haven't made plain my expectations/boundaries/minimum requirements of her behaviour, nor any consequences.

Write a list. And there is only one consequence – the marriage is over.

I still haven't told my WW what constitutes a dealbreaker for me (not that you'd think you'd have to)... I feel like I've left just enough ambiguity for my WW to 'innocently' exploit.

The dealbreakers are in the list. Break one, and you’re done.

To help with your lise, go back and re-read "Before you say reconcile"

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548&AP=1

And the relevant posts in "Great Posts for Newbies"

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=361740&AP=1

Don't make it a long list, once you start you may find it goes on forever! Talk this out with your IC and sort it out in your head. Try to clear your mind of all the other crap that is sloshing around in there and get down to the bare bones.

And if she point blank refuses MC, that is probably telling you there is a whole shedload more you don’t know about - and that she wants to keep secret.

saveus,

please dont get angry at us. everyone on this forum, ALL of us, has been where you are. we are trying to help.

no contact.

HOW is he contacting her? why isnt his number blocked? why hasnt her number been changed?

no contact doesnt just mean from her to him. it also is from him to her. you cant make him stop but you can make it so his messages dont arrive. no contact also means your wife doesnt see him. period. not at the club, not anywhere, ever, under any circumstances ... ever again. if she sees him on the street she should be RUNNING the other direction. email addresses are changed and old ones deleted. facebook profile deleted (because he can just create a new one to message her anytime he wants too).

you see, OM is a temptation for your wife. one she has given into before. would you send an alcoholic trying to quit drinking into a bar to hang out for hours on end? then why do you have your wife hanging around areas where OM is (the club), getting messages on the phone, etc? you are THROWING her into temptation each time you ask her to come or allow her to go or even see a message.

the longer this temptation continues the more likely she is to give into it. the reforming alcoholic might be able to go into the bar and make it through a day there but what about if they do it again and again and again? sooner or later the temptation maybe proves to strong. its your marriage you are risking.

painting yourself into a corner is always bad. never say if you do X i will do Y immediately. if you cant back that statement up then you have painted yourself into a corner. instead say X is unacceptable to me and will cause me to reevaluate my desire to be in the relationship. you didnt say you would change your desire. you said you would reevaluate it - you can decide either way when you evaluate it. words have meaning.

but flat out you need to continue to push her off that fence. the longer she stays on that fence the worse is it. the more likely she continues with OM. the more likely it is that you end up in divorce (which isnt necessarily bad or whatever but winding up there when there was a possibility of R and that is what you and her actually wanted isnt good), the more likely this becomes a permanent state of affairs (no pun intended), and the more likely that it all becomes very toxic very quickly.

i get you love your son and would do anything for him. i totally get that. i get your son loves the activity he engages in at this club. i get that money is tight. i get that its not fair to your son to lose this activity. i also get (which you dont) that going to this club is a VERY bad move. one you keep making over and over. yes. i know its hard.

A: my wife's parents had a sort of housekeeper who babysat my daughter on occassion. she knew about one of my wife's affairs and at first argued against it but then said "okay". no contact for my wife = no contact with anyone who condoned, supported, encouraged, or facilitated her affairs. this includes this lady. my daughter lost out. fair? no. for the best? yes.

B. there are two guys my wife behaved inappopriately with who live a few blocks away. we avoid that street now. the whole street.it adds distance onto our drive to get groceries. it was an area that is ideal for biking with our daughter and ive done it many times in the past. now we dont go there ... ever. fair? no. for the best? yes.

in both cases my daughter lost out. i know. it pisses me off that shes paying a price for my wife's actions. believe me. in both cases i believe the decision to do it this way is for the best. but yeah ... the injustice of it all is grating.