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I do not wish to deviate from LJ's purpose for this thread. I do, however, wish to address some of Sharkman comments. First of all I thought I made myself clear that I have never forgotten, nor will I ever forget anyone who made such sacrifices. Second, I never said or implied that I was a great leader. I can live with the decisions I made knowing that they were what the situation called for. I believe that any decision made from a logical approach, will in the long run, be a much better decision than one made strictly on emotion. I do wish you well.

I believe that any decision made from a logical approach, will in the long run, be a much better decision than one made strictly on emotion. I do wish you well.

I believe the OP has already covered this by not making a life-changing decision for 90 days (originally).

Hi LJ

I am afraid that I can’t engage in the dialogue of our noble military leaders above here.

I took an altogether different route. An often misunderstood one. A usually despised one. I chose to place conscience and the belief that some, strongly held humanistic values, are worth dying for even if for me, they are not worth killing for, above all else.

When conscripted to be part of the forces of an evil regime, I chose to be a conscientious objector, not because of some religious dogma, but simply because of my sense of humanity. The belief in an obligation to refuse, in the face of the threat of death and the reality of imprisonment, to have any part of being the machinery that would inflict a crime against humanity.

If you have seen the film “Hacksaw ridge”, the experience of Desmond Doss, in the first half of the movie could have been scripted from my experience. In my experience, what everyone else saw as my cowardice, in fact demanded the greatest courage.

I see so many similarities to that experience of mine to what I sometimes experience here. I must stress that this is just my personal view. I made my decision on the road out of infidelity based on my views of what is right. What the bare minimum requirements for a committed, treasured, relationship are. For me it took incredible courage to stick to these core values of mine. And yet, I so often get the sense here in the SI community, that those who choose this path are seen as not being man enough, big hearted enough, courageous enough, to take the course that they (these others), either blatantly, or through insinuation, or through subtle shaming of us, try to get us to see as the only worthy choice.

In choosing to walk the path of a conscientious objector one also makes the very bold statement that, you are prepared to stand firm on the values that you hold to be true, but through that very act, you respect the will and wishes of every other man. That is why, to now and still, I make no recommendation on your choice. But I am here to support you in the one that you do take.

Having made myself more vulnerable here than I ever had the intention to I hope you will again indulge me and allow me to reflect on other things just a little.

I am wondering what your plans for Christmas might be. I am struggling with this a little. Christmas has always been a big deal for us and this is going to be our first Christmas since our little family has been smashed to pieces. I am wrestling with whether to keep any of the old traditions that were so special but which might trigger new hurts or to instead begin to build brand new ones that proclaim our new life. The rebirth of our little family in the new units that it has been formed into. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

[This message edited by ohforanewme at 4:57 AM, November 30th (Thursday)]

I am wondering what your plans for Christmas might be. I am struggling with this a little. Christmas has always been a big deal for us and this is going to be our first Christmas since our little family has been smashed to pieces. I am wrestling with whether to keep any of the old traditions that were so special but which might trigger new hurts or to instead begin to build brand new ones that proclaim our new life. The rebirth of our little family in the new units that it has been formed into. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Yeah, holidays are always delicate. WW and I would always spend Christmas together, flying either to her parents' house or mine. This year, we're spending it apart. She's going to see her family and I'm going to see mine. I'm actually taking an extended visit-- two full weeks! I figured why not? I haven't seen any members of my blood family since before this whole shitstorm started, so I was kind of looking forward to the support (Though when I told my mother of my plans, she said "You can stay as long as you like, but that seems like a _really_ long time, don't you think?" Thanks, Mom. Love you, too.)

Your situation is obviously more complicated, what with the kids involved. But I think you should pull out the parts of the season that have meaning to you and keep those traditions going. It's your life, after all. However, I'm giving this advice perhaps from a place of hypocrisy, because I told WW not to pull out any decorations from the closet or buy a tree (I LOVE having a real Christmas tree in my living room) because this year I just don't really feel like celebrating anything. This year can go straight to hell.

Hi LJ

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Somehow I find them especially valuable coming from you.

I have received incredible support from the good folk here in JFO but my real supporters here are well out of infidelity and the perspective of someone as deep in as me gives a sense of comradery.

Just reflecting on how your input has helped it has given me the idea to not try and decide on this alone.

I am going to hold a family council and we will decide together.

So thanks for thinking this through with me.

Hope you have a good one.

Oh yes, and mom's,

You can stay as long as you like, but that seems like a _really_ long time, don't you think?"

you just have to love them.

I'm not telling you what to do, but I read that, statistically, once a spouse cheats on you, they are 300% more likely to cheat on you again.

That being said, you have a spouse that cheated on you and was caught. I don't have a statistic on how many cheaters who were caught continue to cheat later on.

Changing ones morals is a very difficult task because the wisdom we have gained through our life affects what decisions we make. When you R, you have someone who cheated and escaped MOST of the consequences. It takes a special person to R and it takes a very special wayward to change themselves significantly to make it successful.

You can stay as long as you like, but that seems like a _really_ long time, don't you think?"

Um...I love my (adult) son, but my W & I have lives of our own.

My suggestions:

It's a good idea to think about ground rules for your visit and talk with your parents about them.

What do you want from your visit? Especially, what do you want from them? Answer those questions for yourself and ask your parents if they'll give you the help you want.

Ask them if they need some help that you can give them, if you're willing to help.

I want to support my son, but for a 2 week visit, I'd want to know the goals and the rules.

...once a spouse cheats on you, they are 300% more likely to cheat on you again.

Hey, c'mon, np5 - you're too smart to believe some random number from the Internet that is no more than a WAG....

Really, where does the number come from? If you tell us that, we can look at it and see if it has any basis in fact.

Thanks.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:26 AM, December 1st (Friday)]

Hey, c'mon, np5 - you're too smart to believe some random number from the Internet that is no more than a WAG....

Really, where does the number come from? If you tell us that, we can look at it and see if it has any basis in fact.

Can't say if that is true or not. I didn't do the "research". Even "facts" like what percentage of people have affairs vary from 10% to 50%. I guess it depends on your population sample. But if you take the averages, perhaps its 1 in 4 or 1 in 5.

Search 2017, Trustify, and infidelity statistics. I don't know their "trustworthiness". But even if it is 200% or 100% or 50% more, it's still more than a random sample of single people, I would think. Maybe the shell-shock-sadder-but-wiser factor of being caught changes this. Still food for thought.

I wonder if R with a wayward spouse makes you more secure than when you are initially married. I haven't see a statistic other than this one, but I haven't looked much.

Just came across this today....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/helenthomson/2017/11/29/once-a-cheater-always-a-cheater-says-unique-study-of-infidelity/

Yes, that's the one. It's on pubmed too, I see. N of 484, with adjustments for demographics.

Maybe I'm missing something but how can there be a 300% chance of anything happening. 100% chance means it will definitely happen. Does 300% mean it will happen 3 times? Common Core math I guess. I'll never understand it, 'cause it doesn't make sense.

What he probably means-

Say there's a 1 out of 6 chance of an event occurring...if the odds increase to 3 out of 6,

the odds went up threefold - or 300%.

Maybe I'm missing something but how can there be a 300% chance of anything happening. 100% chance means it will definitely happen. Does 300% mean it will happen 3 times? Common Core math I guess. I'll never understand it, 'cause it doesn't make sense.

RC, I was wondering the same thing.

What he probably means-

Say there's a 1 out of 6 chance of an event occurring...if the odds increase to 3 out of 6,

the odds went up threefold - or 300%.

LTOM, Thanks for clearing this up.

Hi LJ

Our discussion about the challenges of Christmas and establishing new traditions was providential.

After being out of the country on business last week I was looking forward to having the weekend to rest and recuperate. It was not to be. What was to be was way better.

An angel lady that has only come into our family’s life as a direct result of XWW blowing up my world introduced us to one of her Christmas traditions that is definitely going to be an enduring Ohfor family Christmas tradition.

On arriving home on Friday evening, I found my Volvo SUV, “seats all folded flat and packed to the roof” with “stuff”. All “stuff” collected from family and acquaintances. There are some rules for those who contribute “stuff”. None of it can be junk. At least 1 item must be a bit of a personal sacrifice. The “stuff” is to be taken to an orphanage on Saturday morning.

On Saturday morning, a little convoy of cars set out. The orphanage is actually a grouping of 4 couples who take up to 14 orphans, each into their homes. There is no state support whatsoever for these folk.

Well the “stuff” is not just dumped at the orphanage. When we get there our little band help to unload and then we help the kids in the orphanage. Each of them is twinned with a peer. Sort of their life buddy. The get to pick a single item form the “stuff” that they would like to give to their life buddy and wrap it to be put under their Christmas tree.

All the rest of the stuff is sorted and packed into parcels for them to send to the rural, child headed households (the HIV/AIDS epidemic has decimated some of the rural parts of the country) who are so less fortunate than them, you see, the house parents want them to recognise just how fortunate they are in life, being so much better off than those rural kids (and if you don’t have a tear in your eye right now you don’t have a heart).

With my SUV now empty of its load, all the seats are back up and it is turned into a bus. We overload the vehicles to the point that it would be illegal in any 1st world country but for which we have a special talent in SA. We head to a nearby mall. There each kid is given an amount of money to go and buy anything that they want for that amount. It will be wrapped and placed under the tree as their present for Christmass.

The saying, “it is better to give than receive”. Well, I now know it to be true.

Ohfor family consensus is that we will give up all Christmas traditions, as long as we are allowed to keep this one.

LJ, I hope that somewhere in this potentially otherwise crappy Christmas season, there is a gem of joy, just like this one waiting for you.

Merry Christmas all. I know it might be early, but for me it feels as if mine has already come.

(edited for clarity )

[This message edited by ohforanewme at 2:08 AM, December 4th (Monday)]

By “child-headed households” do you mean these kids are raising themselves?

That is an amazing new tradition, ohfor. That will fill yours and your childrens' hearts with so many wonderful and touching memories every Christmas.

Hi PlanC

Yip, they are kids. Sometimes as young as 12, the epidemic has killed off both parents and then the responsibility falls to the oldest child in the home.

Hi LJ

Just checking in. This evening 2PP and I will be packing for our game lodge trip on Thursday. I know that you were planning to get away as well and though I would just check in before you go.

Yup heading back home to the parents' house for the holidays on Monday the 18th. Looking forward to getting away. Dog boarding is set and my suitcase is basically packed-- though filled mostly with Christmas gifts for my brother's kids and barely any clothes.

WW and I have been mostly peacefully coexisting. The real wrinkle is that Wednesday of this week is my 33rd birthday. WW asked me what kind of cake she wanted me to make-- to which I had to respond, "...No."

It's weird. I really don't feel like celebrating my birthday (because this year has been so awful), and I *certainly* don't want to spend it with WW. So, I was thinking I might just go to a movie by myself. But then I realize that doing that may be even sadder.

Thankfully, just a few days after my birthday, I'll be back home with my family, so maybe I can just mentally postpone all celebrations until then.

I was always afraid of going to movies alone.

Then one day the wife and kids were traveling and, as happens, I found myself crippled having nothing to do. So I poured myself a water bottle full of vodka, bought $60 of concessions and went to a midnight show of the 3rd Christian Bale Batman movie.

I had the theater to myself. It was amazing.