SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There are no words that can truly express the pain, relief, support and happiness together the I would like to extend to you. As your situation has gone to the last few steps it is out of my experience and the fine SI Vets have done a remarkable job encouraging you, giving you adivce and options.

I don't know weather to congradulate you on your handling this on your own terms, though the circumstances suck.

I have not read every thread an situation on SI since I am relatively new myself. However this has got to be one of the most educational threads the read through about what challenges we BS's face. This illustrates vividly some of the advice in the healing library and shows it's effects. From telling OPBS, to getting legal help to how to handle yourself to 180(ish). Because of it's unique delayed time span, there was much to talk about and time to develope your options. New people should take the time to read this from start to finish (and the previous thread leading to this) as a case study in how to give yourself a fighting chance.

Still Cheering you on Feb.

JP-

She said she wanted one more conversation for closure and that she wanted to tell him she was mad at him for not listening to her

WTF??!!! He held a gun to her, right?

Is the OM and his BS still together? How would she feel about this? Maybe all 4 of you should get together for your WW's farewell speech to OM.

Feb

You are maybe at the most delicate step in your process:

Once again the car-showroom:

She has told you she accepts that she can’t have the red Ferrari.

But at the same time she wants to sit in it for one last time.

She still wants it. But she’s also willing to walk away from it.

OK – for now that might be OK. MAYBE.

But remember: from day one your WW has been making offers. Make sure the terms of her latest offers are totally clear and on the table.

I think you are totally correct in refusing a final closure meeting. That’s like the alcoholic wanting a beer on the way to detox. Shows lack of intent.

The affair does not need closure. It’s either over or the marriage is over.

Make it perfectly clear to her that she is totally free to see OM. If she decided to end the affair then it is totally 100% HER decision and her choice. Therefore if she is hiding anything then she is basically lying to herself.

Let her know accountability will make things easier BUT that you already know that IF the affair carries on you will know. She might hide one liaison, one contact. Maybe even two or even a third. But eventually you will know. And when that happens your will to reconcile might have eroded beyond the point of caring.

And Feb – you too need IC after this. Don’t overlook the damage this has done to you. To completely heal your marriage you need three healthy things: A healthy you, a healthy wife and a healthy relationship. Get outside help on all three issues.

One thing my FWH and I regret is that we didn't read "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass right after D-day. We hadn't heard of it until I found SI (8 months after D-day). It is the most helpful book for infidelity ever. It is a handbook on how to get through this, step by step.

i have this book, and intend to ask her (no, tell her) to read it.

Any other reading suggestions (for her)?

I think you are totally correct in refusing a final closure meeting

Thank you. I know I am. And I did it. I will remind her again that she said she would do anything...my bag is still packed.

I am nervous and wary today. I heard and saw a lot of positive yesterday, but there is still a lot to worry about.

I would recommend the book Geaux Tigers recommended. It is called: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda J. MacDonald

It is short and an easy read. Less than 100 pages. It did wonders for GT's WW. She finally got it after reading that book.

Feb,

I am very glad to see something positive from your WW. But now is the time to be EVER SO VIGILANT.

Just like Bigger said, you are at a very delicate point in this mess. In a heartbeat, it can take a hard turn the wrong way---so you have to keep on your toes and be unwaivering in your demands.

I hope this is the start of an uphill climb. To quote Winston Churchill:

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

Good luck, friend.

Interesting turn of events. She was in a position of power, wanting an open marriage and indifferent to hurting you by telling you she'd never been attracted to you. You were made to feel you weren't enough for her back then. Are you now...for the right reasons?

By following advice on here, you turned the tide and power changed hands from her to you. On top of that, she's lost the group that appeared to be more important than her marriage at one point and likely feels ashamed at being outed by you.

But you put divorce on the table and being a single, less well off parent scared her. So rather than getting to express her anger at what this has cost her, she has to stuff all her negative emotions in order to hold on to the marriage. Remember the boy scout motto "be prepared" Does she really mean what she's saying? Only she knows. Once she feels safe in the marriage again the backlash, resentment, and anger might still come and derail the marriage. That's part of the reason she needs some serious IC and perhaps MC.

Time for me to chime in.

Absolutely do not let her have closure phone call. All that does is let WS profess love for AP. For us, it kept her contacting my FWS for months.

Until she makes and goes to her IC, do not, DO NOT, soften. She has a very long way to go and knows how to make you back off.

Please listen to those who have been down this road, If you have any hope in saving this relationship.

Also, re the kids, I've said before, they see and learn everything. Think of this: Am I teaching them that being abused (and you are) is acceptable? Is this what I want for my daughter and sons? I'm thinking no. So, sorry for the 2x4, but we are all screaming for you to listen!

(((((hugs to you)))))

Do stand firm on refusing to accept a one-last-time closure talk. She needs to write a NC letter - extremely short and to the point, very businesslike, no endearments, personal details, or expressions of emotion for anyone other than her family (okay, maybe the children of OM's that her actions have harmed). That's all the closure required in this situation. NC letters can really be reduced to two or three sentences, and they should be. Here's an example:

I regret the damage my actions have caused to my own and other families. I am recommitting to the wellbeing of my marriage and my family. I will never contact you again in any way and formally request that you never contact me either.

sincerely,

WW

There's really not much room for anything else in an effective NC letter. Have her write it/them and put them in addressed but unsealed envelopes. You read them first and, when you are satisfied that they are sufficiently clear and businesslike, see that they are put in the post.

After NC letters are delivered, you might suggest to the BW's, if you're still in contact in any way, that you all agree to threaten/file restraining orders on any of the WS's who persist in contacting each other. RO's can work wonders.

Feb, I understand you have three kids and desperately want to save this marriage. I think desperate would be the key word here.

You're filling in the blanks for her and you need to be VERY careful and guarded not to do that. See what she does on her OWN. Do NOT do her work for her.

It is extremely painful to sit back and drop the codependent role and see if the WS values you and your family enough to do the hard work. You'll never know if you don't stand back and LET her do the WORK.

Otherwise, you'll be where you are now -- doing all the heavy lifting for her.

She drove a kid to school? Big whoop. Standard mother operating procedure. The fact that you applaud such minor contributions to family life demonstrates to me exactly how checked out she's been. I know you have to start somewhere... and I know you're desperate to see Progress...

The most damning thing I just read is that she went underground with the A. I wouldn't give her a shitload of credit for telling you either. You've outted the affairs -- a BS was going to share that nugget with you eventually. And as word spreads and you compare notes with the other BSs, I'm sure you'll uncover more horrors. That's the way this plays out usually.

Here's the thing -- she SAW your devastation and still had to have her fix. Right now she SEES you leaving her and she is STILL trying to manipulate you into letting her have a last hit of the OM. (Closure -- )

She still thinks (quite rightly) that she can play you.

I don't blame you for trying. I did the R thing myself for over a year. You'll know when you've had enough.

I don't see her focused on your pain. I don't see empathy. I don't see personal responsibility. I see a scared, desperate child who doesn't want her playthings taken away.

I see WW. I see no W. I realize you want to see it different.

Squiffle,

I understand that you are sharing from your experience but maybe, just maybe there is hope here.

Hang in the Feb. You can't only focus on the negative. Your WW wife has taken some steps in the right direction no matter how big or small.

t/j Hey, hitbyatruck, I think all things considered, I was quite compassionate. What I said was not without Hope. It was look and make sure you aren't spinning this into what you WANT to see. Perhaps there is something to see. I think it is WAY too early to know if she can be a W and not a WW. Especially with the insistence on seeing the OM, total manipulation play.

I didn't say things like "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" -- I said, let her do the WORK. Not sure how that is construed as anti-R???

end t/j

She said she wanted one more converstaion for closure and that she wanted to tell him she was mad at him for not listening to her the first time she tried to push him away (OK, still pretty foggy there - although the story is true, because she had very casually mentioned it to me before anything happened -"If you cross that line, I'll slug you"). I told her sure if I could be there, or otherwise a NC e-mail.

Please, please, please do NOT let her have a "closure" convo. Please.

I permitted WH to do that since he worked (thank goodness that's past tense) with OW and it was really tense after he sent the NC email, and I believe it cracked the door open to resume the A. Sure, he may have done it behind my back anyway, but I hate the fact that I agreed to it.

There is a chance that I will be going out of town for 4 days next week, as a supervisor on a trip, fully paid. I was just asked this morning. I will know for sure later in the week.

It would be good for both of us, I think.

squiffle and hitbyatruck - My guard is still up, my bag is still packed, I am working on my list, which I will give her today (in writing).

And yes, I desperately want to save my marriage, but only if its real...I could live with D if I had to.

So two confliciting thoughts.

First, score one for the good guy. Chalk up another one for the 180 and outing the cheaters.

Second, oh God, another dday.

My thoughts are about the same as squiffle's, so won't repeat. Just offering you thoughts and support.

It sure makes the 'open' hypocrisy more explicable doesn't it. She could afford to take a more 'lberal' view since we know now she was getting boned. Have you figured out when it was supposed to have ended? After the "I'll never touch another man" pity lay?

What can I say, except she still doesn't see the need for counselling? Wow.

As I said before, get ready for the rage. She ain't seen nothing yet. Are you on meds?

ETA: If your leaving town, she will probably contact OM. I don't see how you can control it.

[This message edited by longsadstory1952 at 9:48 AM, April 5th (Tuesday)]

And yes, I desperately want to save my marriage, but only if its real...I could live with D if I had to.

That is a very good place to be. Stay in that mindset, but keep up the legal proceedings towards D. However desperately you want to save your marriage, you can't do it by yourself. Without her stepping up bigtime, it won't happen.

I agree that she has taken small steps in the right direction. A few not in the right direction too. She's not following a good path yet, only bumbling around in a confused manner.

Several people have asked, Feb, and you still don't answer:

Have you given her a clear set of requirements for R?

That would be a good roadmap for her to follow. If she doesn't have those requirements in hand, then you can't wholly fault her for not making the big steps she needs to to save the marriage. If you desperately want to get a real marriage out of this, give her a clear path to follow, and see if she'll do the work. If not, then you're that much farther along on D-track.

FEB....

You have made it through round one of the "bullriding" event.....this rodeo has a few more rounds to go.....

I see a glimmer of R begining to show..........its a long ride - dont make the mistake of "trying to go too fast".....

Be sure she knows what your expectations are....and the consequences for "breaking them".....

"actions are louder than words".....

Good luck, Bro.....

Bufffalo

If your leaving town, she will probably contact OM.

Seconding this.

Do you really want to be the marriage police?

If you're thinking of having her come with you? TERRIBLE IDEA. We were howling at a walk and dessert. Please don't reward her with ANOTHER vacation. (What 10 days wasn't enough?)

How she toughs it alone for 4 days is a real good indicator of how much work she's willing to do. If she can't stand you at her sister's without crying for help, how will she countenance four days?

If your leaving town, she will probably contact OM.

Why? To come help her bring all three of our kids to the season ending hockey party?

Do you really want to be the marriage police?

No, and I told her that yesterday...right before I told her that I would, at least for the foreseeable future.

If you're thinking of having her come with you? TERRIBLE IDEA. We were howling at a walk and dessert. Please don't reward her with ANOTHER vacation. (What 10 days wasn't enough?)

She is not invited. They needed ONE more supervisor.

How she toughs it alone for 4 days is a real good indicator of how much work she's willing to do. If she can't stand you at her sister's without crying for help, how will she countenance four days?

She will see what it would be like to have primary custody. She will get to hear "When's daddy coming home?" a "few" times.

I hope it's a go..I find out Friday.

There is a chance that I will be going out of town for 4 days next week, as a supervisor on a trip, fully paid. I was just asked this morning. I will know for sure later in the week.

It would be good for both of us, I think.

Oh, I see the confusion...

Good for me to go on a great trip, with a good friend as roommate.

Good for my W (WW?) to spend 4 full days alone with our children.

She is not invited, either by the trip organizer, or me.