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Would you however use the same approach with the rapist?

Depends on the goal. One should use the same approach with the rapist if empathy and understanding is the goal.

One should use the same approach with the rapist if empathy and understanding is the goal.

While ever my arse points to the ground I for one, will never empathise with a rapist. They don't deserve it. Any empathy should be reserved for the victim.

Does a rapist deserve help in correcting their abberant behaviour, of course.

But empathy, no way.

Understand that if you can't EFFECTIVELY communicate that message, you are as good as shouting in the wind.

But what is effective for one person is not necessarily so for another. I have seen posters have their asses handed to them and respond that they were grateful for the blunt delivery.

Slight T/J

Isadora - Why is phrasing so important?

Smez - Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me.

At a certain level, I agree with Smez that phrasing is important.

Quite often, we are guilty of assuming that the language we speak is the same language that others hear. In fact, in the study of linguistics, it’s apparent that language is elastic and its structure and meaning relies on a complex web of social convention and learning. When I studied labour law, one of the earliest lessons was to learn and understand the difference between the words should, could, must, shall etc. as they all have very specific definitions of duty and responsibility even though in day to day speech, most people use them interchangeably.

Words can be used to be very precise and exact and the same words can be used to express only generalities.

Everyone understands that the statement of can you pass the salt during a dinner conversation is not really a question of ability (have you the physical capacity to lift and move the salt shaker) but in fact, in normal conversation, everyone understands that it’s the same as using more proper statement of would you please pass the salt to me.

Maybe at one time, teachers would fuss over the misuse of that phrase but IRL, nobody really worries about things like that in their day to day talks unless of course, you’re a lawyer or linguist. LOL

However, depending on who you talk to and their very unique and particular relationship to language, you will find that syntax, grammar and phrasing will make a world a difference in communicating ideas or information. In fact, depending on the complexity of the information being communicated, the misuse of language, grammar etc. will either make or break the effectiveness of the communication.

Same words, totally different meaning.

End of T/J

HUFI

[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 5:54 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]

I love writing. I love it when words flow together and create the perfect phrase or statement that expresses my meaning perfectly. That being said even my well crafted statement eludes or offends the reader because the reader doesn't want to hear what I am saying. I could have been blunt and rude and my words would have the same effect if I would have been polite and phrased so as to not offend.

When I was in school to be a counselor, emphasis on verbiage was a large part of training. However this is the Internet where it is nowhere near the same as sitting with a person IRL and things tend to not translate well. The messages given in this forum are so non judgy and are so full of care it's wonderful.

Demanding to mince words sounds like another deflection tactic sometimes. You're not speaking my language so you're attacking or bullying me in an ignorant way.

I also feel working with sensitive populations of people do not make you more knowledgeable or less deserving of criticism. I could be wrong but throwing out working with rape victims is an attempt at making posters retreat.

"Grow the fuck up"

"Stop acting like a 7th grader"

"A little maturity, please"

^^ basically the same request phrased 3 different ways.

IMHO, all are judgments (labeling as immature); though some are easier on the ears.

Can I-- in my mind-- rephrase "grow the fuck up" to "a little maturity, please"? ... sure I can ... as soon as you quit acting like a 7th grader.

<tongue-in-cheek>

I'm just saying, grandpa was tasty...

Sorry , this may come out wrong,

I had a runin with my BH yesterday, He posted a comment in FB and I took offense to it as to how it came across, we've had this discussion before, both ways. I will say something or as he did type something, and it was read heard wrong.

I think sometimes that's how some of we may type does. SOMETIMES. Most of the time. I think its our own defenses that cause the response. I try to even say to my self "it might have better , instead of I should have done...." They really do give you a different thinking directions.

However. I am really surprised that once again we have so many pages discussing how any of us are treated on the WS forum. The only words should be thanks for having this page. Not discussing the sementics of how a newbie decides to leave because THEIR not ready to face the truths.

. I think the last time a thread was started it went on forever. Sorry to all you moderators and guides.

I am just thank ful for the care the advice the support and the 2x4's

Now I'm headed back into the forum to see who I can practice my wording on. Sorry had to say it lol

I've been in this forum for over 10 years and in the last 2 months the influx of new WS's has been great...truly!

Well the cynical mind I have read that and had to remember where I was (SI) and who wrote it (DS). I am glad those who need it are coming here. Sad why they are here (as I know you are). Guess that’s the same way to feel about a friend in the hospital.

I’ve seen people “attacked” here. Sometimes I would take a softer approach but that’s me. And usually I think the “attacked” is nail on the head stuff. It’s not just in WS either. I think it’s not a bad idea to try and remember everyone is different and we all respond to different approaches. Like I did when reading what DS started this with, remember there is a real person on the other end of that statement and trying to understand who they are/where there at is pretty useful stuff if we are trying to communicate. That’s as applicable to the newbie as it is the vet IMO. I don’t think the newbie’s necessarily think about that. The mods are pretty fair IMO and I think they help people out when the responses are not helping. Sometimes they just gotta ask. I’ve found them pretty receptive to PM’s.

Nothing is perfect. In some ways it is better that way. I’ve disagreed with the Mods decisions at times, but it’s not my job to juggle the needs of the many. So I get to disagree, I just don’t get to be disrespectful. There are a few vets that are gone that I sorely miss. I hated it when it happened. Wish they could have behaved themselves in public so they could still be here.

BTW SamathaBaker – do you like beef jerky? – the old stuff is kind of tough – just sayin’

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 6:45 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]

OK, this thread has taken a million twists and turns.

I'm only going to comment on one thing, and that is that I would NOT be surprised to find that DS and MH are the true "owners" of the internet.

*I, like DS, will be making liberal use of the impersonal 'you.'*

Here is the problem to me:

It's implicit that WS come to this site seeking guidance, yeah? I think that's safe to assume.

So, complaining that said guidance wasn't provided in a 'nice' enough manner is like saying that you're not going to use that drill that you received for Christmas and *really* needed...because the box and/or wrapping paper wasn't *shiny* enough. It's missing the point of what's being offered.

I will wholeheartedly agree that language is ridiculously important. I am a reader, and I enjoy writing and language in all it's forms and nuances...but this is not a creative writing circle, KWIM? We're not workshopping our drafts around to the group to be dissected for style points and creativity.

If, in life, you fail (or refuse; choose your own adventure) to accept the meaning and spirit behind what is being said in favor of the wrapping that it's enveloped in....then you might as well grab a Capri Sun and some orange slices and hit the sidelines, 'cuz it's going to be a loooooooong fútbol game (of life) for you.

I'd advocate this approach for the new WS poster who doesn't like the tone of the advice: just deal with it and accept it. I don't mean that in a snarky way either, like the preceding paragraph. I mean accept it in the same way that the WS has to choke down other parts of the shit sandwich of infidelity, like being checked-up on, or not trusted, or attending IC and/or reading...consider it a cool, new coping mechanism with which to go out and tackle the world and interpret new language and experiences. Give it a try for a little bit; if you don't like it, you can always go back.

ETA: This doesn't just apply to WS. I know a ton of BH/BW and other people in life who could afford a paradigm shift as well.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 7:02 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]

Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me. I am rape crisis counselor for both the state of California and New York. I help rape survivors through the process of a hospital visit and I also help man a helpline. In our training we spend a lot of time talking about keeping our own bias and judgements out of our responses. I hear judgement from doctors/police ALL the freaking time. They all think they KNOW what the best advice/path is but often they don't. I apply those principal here. Listen first, think about what is going to productively get through to a person, respect someone who isn't ready to x or y and keep your own issues out of it.

That is great. I am sure you have great advice and you can deliver it in your own style and I'm sure it will help many others.

I'm in school for counseling and have done a bit on my own so far also. And what I understand is that this is not a site for professional counseling for your issues. This is a site for regular people who may or may not be trained in communication. There is tremendous diversity on this site and what works for one person may not work for another. So isn't it wonderful that there are so many different ways and communication styles that each member can add to the different threads so there is a greater chance that at least ONE of them will be something that the poster can draw from?

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:23 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]

I will say from personal experience that an ex friend (see the word ex?) was pissed at me when I told her what I thought about her seeing a married man. She thought I'd side with her because the wife was some evil mom and wife yet I refused. I was an insensitive, immature bitch in her eyes.

The BS hired a PI and oh how wonderful it was to show the evidence. The OM dumped her to go back to his BW and threw her under the bus. Their relationship was built on lies and smoke. Nothing special. Fantasy gone. The BW divorced him due to the lies and got lots of money and assets in the divorce due to the PI's evidence of cheating. Good for her!

Listen to the people here. Their words are worth the weight in gold.

NaiveAgain,

I think you make a really great point and that it sums it up perfectly .

I too would like to express thanks to the mods and the guides and everyone here who honestly try to help both the BSes and WSes. I do not post often as most know but I read daily especially in general, wayward and in reconciliation.

If not for the wayward form I would be D'd or living in the pre-d-day hell of hurting and not knowing why. KBFF found this site and here found the courage, support and knowledge she needed to tell me of her affair and to become a new beautiful person inside.

But it was not easy. I don't know about the rest of you (generalized ) but when I'm hurting or mad I'm very narrow minded and short sighted. I never cuss but sometimes the only thing that gets through is

Grow the fuck up

If not for many 2x4's KBFF would still have her blinders on. I heard her "ouches" many times.

I am an advocate of respectful language but I also believe in the plain truth and sometimes I think the only way to reach someone in the fog is through blunt tough love. It has worked for KBFF and I am forever grateful.

I was an NCAA Division I athlete in college. I quickly learned what it means to "suck it up" and "what doesn't kill you make you stronger." Half the girls quit my freshman year.

There is no doubt in my mind that the tough love I got from my coach was critical to my success. Politely telling me to try harder and to please give it 110% would not do it. But when coach yells at you "is that all you've got!?" "You gonna quit!?" Yeah, that's when I find my fight and last bit of strength.

I firmly believe I wouldn't be here (recovered) if I hadn't learned how to fight to the end and not to throw in the towel.

I realize not everyone responds to the coach shouting in their ear. But some do and that's who I can help.

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 9:05 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]

As to coaching styles, I'm a huge John Wooden fan.

I'm a huge John Wooden fan.

Then I'm sure you'll love.

"Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you."

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be."

John Wooden

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 9:39 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]

Yes, I enjoy both of those quotes!