SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

HP,

You have had some incredibly productive discussions with your fiance, and I can understand why you feel guarded but optimistic. It sounds like your relationship had ground to a halt, but it has now kick-started, with your fiance rediscovering her commitment to both you and the relationship. That is very good to hear, and I am very pleased for you.

People are mentioning your financial position in the relationship, and maybe that is something you can discuss with your fiance. Personally, I don't think she can be against it, or she would have objected to it at some point.

Do keep your eye on the work situation, both hers, and the OM's.

I am glad you are communicating so positively and productively, and that you are getting the attention and affection that you needed to see. Keep it rolling, HP!

HP, glad to have this last post. I hope she's sincere and willing to do what it takes.

Have you informed the OBS?

Hey HP

Glad that you are still here.

I want to touch on Alchemy's last post because it resonates with me to a degree.

As the primary breadwinner in my own family, I have to admit that there were times when it was completely overwhelming to me. Part of that is because I have serious mental health issues from my childhood so I want that to be the caveat here as your SO hopefully does not have my same shit! But yeah, I totally agree with Alchemy in that you and your SO most definitely should revisit your relationship dynamics. Luckily for me, my husband is very supportive of me when I'm overwhelmed. I can go to him and tell him how I'm feeling and we come up with a plan together. It makes us more solid.

As in any relationship, communication is key. You would think it an obvious statement but so often we adults don't seem to do a very good job of it!

Hey all.

Today has been terrible.

We had a MC session last night and I might be done with MC for now. All of the conversations continued to steer towards how I need to communicate, what I can do to make my WW not feel attacked, what I can contribute movin forward emotionally and what I should be trying in order to manage my feelings. What the fuck is that shit? I feel like I'm still trying to understand the last few details of my WW actions during her A and our MC is trying to get me to practice breathing techniques to calm my newly developed panic attacks? I'm trying to figure out WHY my WW decides to use a WMD to annihilate my life, my self respect, my perception of the person I chose to spend the last 13 years with and she hands me a chart of cartoon faces designed for kids so I can "match my facial expressions to the chart to determine what I'm feeling"? Then looks at me like I'm crazy when I say how how stupid and useless the chart is and that I don't believe in dumb yoga breathin techniques. I feel like I've done a fairly good job of managing the shitstorm of feelings I've had since my universe was obliterated.

Sorry just had to get that off my chest. I'm totally calling our our MC at our next (and possibly last) session next week. 100% leave feeling like it's my fault and my WW hasn't been called to the carpet for the disgusting, selfish, disrespectful CHOICES she made, let alone been told that the responsibility lies completely on her to help me in ANY way possible to get past the trauma and into a place where we can work on our relationship.

Anyway, I have researched and located the OBS but have not disclosed to her yet. The sole reason being I do not want to interfere in my fiancée ability to successfully look for another job. I've made a decision that if my WW leaves her job I will tell the OBS everything I know. If the OM leaves the job, I will tell the OBS. If my timeline for 100% NC expires without either the OM or my WW finding another job, I will tell the OBS. I believe she has a right to know. I have not asked for permission to do this or disclosed to my WW that I will be doing this.

Good job quickly seeing the MC for what it was. Honestly, it's time for her being in IC. MC is only for when two people are committed to honestly and she's full of remorse. If she was full of remorse she would have stopped that horseshit in a cocaine heartbeat.

Also, wise decision exposing. When is your deadline for them finding a new job ?

What the fuck is that shit?

Yes, precisely why we always say MC is a waste of time and money until after some effective IC.

Also, way too may MCs have no clue how to deal with infidelity, so don't be afraid to tell your WS that the MC is an idiot and unqualified.

I'm totally calling our our MC at our next (and possibly last) session next week.

Don't wast your time or money returning there to tell them anything, simply call and cancel any further appointments, making sure they understand that you feel they are unqualified to deal with infidelity.

[This message edited by OrdinaryDude at 4:15 PM, May 2nd (Tuesday)]

Your MC doesn't see infidelity as a reason to destroy a relationship. Most of them don't so I'm not sure how your hunt for a counselor who will punish your wife is going to go. Not well I would imagine.

Your story is typical in many ways, not the least of which is blaming yourself for "not being available" and being a poor communicator and all that shit. The fact is that very few men measure up to what your wife - or any other woman - are looking for in the emotional & communication department. Of course not all women use that as an excuse to hit the sack with another man but lots of them do.

It's like you are helping your WW gaslight you and accepting responsibility for her decision to cheat. Stop it. Your feelings count too - not just hers. In fact in the wake of this disgusting discovery I think that right now its YOU who's in emotional crisis and need extra attention in this area.

Counseling is really complicated for most people when they first start therapy. They have all these preconceived notions of how it works and seem to see the counselor as some kind of wizard who can "fix" them. Of course that's not how it works and many new patients are disappointed that the counselor doesn't "fix" them and doesn't have all the answers the need. Even if the next MC session turns out to be your last, you should really put the counselor on the spot by asking him/her "do my feelings matter in here at all?" If you get any kind of an answer that doesn't encourage you to follow up by telling your wife exactly how you feel about all of this then just walk out. The counselor is a fraud. If you are encouraged to share how you feel then there's hope - just stop expecting the counselor to "fix" all of this. You also need to talk about the goals of counseling early on. Call bullshit on any goal like "save the marriage" because that's not a goal - it's a wish. The goals should have to do with you feeling strong enough to try to reconcile and your wife feeling confident that she can stay faithful from here on and be willing to help heal your hurt no matter what it takes. If you are able to reach these goals and decide to reconcile, THEN you both accept responsibility for your shortcomings and pledge to work together to fix your marriage. The counselor should function as an advisor and a coach - not a healer.

Let me add that I do not disagree with others who suggest that IC might be more appropriate for both of you right now. If you go that route my advice on setting goals and not seeing the counselor as a wizard still go...

[This message edited by anoka at 4:33 PM, May 2nd (Tuesday)]

Your story is typical in many ways, not the least of which is blaming yourself for "not being available" and being a poor communicator and all that shit. The fact is that very few men measure up to what your wife - or any other woman - are looking for in the emotional & communication department. Of course not all women use that as an excuse to hit the sack with another man but lots of them do.

It's like you are helping your WW gaslight you and accepting responsibility for her decision to cheat. Stop it. Your feelings count too - not just hers.

This was me too, 100%.

I was completely checked out, mired in my undiagnosed and untreated depression.

Did my W fight for me to get help? No, she decided her needs were more important than our M and went elsewhere.

I was in the same crappy M too, but I didn't cheat...so how would I be to blame for her actions?

It took a while for that the sink into my head, but it did, then after a few months she realized that too, and owned her actions...otherwise we would not be together today.

You each have to realize the you are responsible for yourself, and cannot blame the other spouse for your actions.

MC does not usually address this, but tries to save the M, often glossing over the root issues.

[This message edited by OrdinaryDude at 5:15 PM, May 2nd (Tuesday)]

What happened with your MC, while unfortunate,is also waaaaay too common. My opinion is they do this bc they want to keep the marriage together,no matter the cost to the BS. Why do they want to keep the marriage together? To keep themselves in business.

Find one that openly advertises himself/herself as one that specializes in infidelity.

We had a MC session last night and I might be done with MC for now. All of the conversations continued to steer towards how I need to communicate, what I can do to make my WW not feel attacked, what I can contribute movin forward emotionally and what I should be trying in order to manage my feelings. What the fuck is that shit? I feel like I'm still trying to understand the last few details of my WW actions during her A and our MC is trying to get me to practice breathing techniques to calm my newly developed panic attacks? I'm trying to figure out WHY my WW decides to use a WMD to annihilate my life, my self respect, my perception of the person I chose to spend the last 13 years with and she hands me a chart of cartoon faces designed for kids so I can "match my facial expressions to the chart to determine what I'm feeling"? Then looks at me like I'm crazy when I say how how stupid and useless the chart is and that I don't believe in dumb yoga breathin techniques. I feel like I've done a fairly good job of managing the shitstorm of feelings I've had since my universe was obliterated.

Frankly, I think this is a good thing since (1) it's much too soon for you to be in MC and (2) now you know that most MCs are clueless on how to help a marriage heal from infidelity since they blame husbands for their wives' unhappiness.

You should be focused on recovering from her cheating and she should be focused on understanding why she cheated. Eventually, if she shows genuine remorse over an extended period of time and you decide to R, you can find a good MC, one who specializes in marriages damaged by infidelity.

Meanwhile, work on getting your career back on track and building your self-esteem.

The MC works for you. That said, if you tell the MC that your goal is reconciliation, to save the relationship, and live happily ever after, well ... what do you expect? MC is only trying to fix what you said was your goal.

Too soon to determine to stay together. Goal should be to determine if you should stay with her or not. This involves her showing proper words and actions consistently over a long period of time. Like a person who loves you and wants to marry you.

I really don't believe your fiance's supposed motives and reasons. Like she consciously felt that way and then purposely cheated the way she did. I've never seen it that way. Plus, her reasons basically, at the foundation, is the old blame-the-victim thing.

Do you have proof she has submitted applications to new companies to look for a job?

HP,

Sorry to hear about the debacle at the MC session. The first one seemed to spark a lot of good discussion between you and your fiancé, and I was hopeful that the sessions would continue that way.

The trouble with MC is that it can be geared to improving marriages BEFORE they have hit a major issue like infidelity or one person simply walking out. So there can be a lot of focus on talking, expressing emotions, removing ‘blame’ from communications, etc, which is fine for a marriage that has deteriorated a bit, but not appropriate in the aftermath of a bigger issue. As another poster mentions, there are MC counselors who specialise in infidelity; a counsellor like that would be more appropriate.

I guess the counsellor might have focused on you because you may be manifesting the greater signs of distress. To use an analogy, the counsellor is like a paramedic who has arrived in the aftermath of a bar fight. Who should they treat first; the person who is flat on their back, seeing stars and bleeding, or the person who clobbered them? It’s going to be the guy who is flat on his back. However, the most pressing thing on that guy’s mind may not be getting his cuts fixed, but finding out why the heck he was clobbered in the first place. And he discovers that the paramedic is better with band-aids than investigations!

It sounds like a better MC with experience of infidelity is what you need, if you do not agree with some other posters that it may be too early for MC. I did think it was encouraging how much came out in your first session, so I am sorry it came off the rails at the second session. Personally, I think sessions that you are both at could be useful, you just need the right counsellor, with the relevant experience.

As others have suggested, individual counselling for both of you might be more appropriate at this every early stage, so close to discovery. It could certainly help you work through your perfectly justified feelings of anger and betrayal, and what steps can be taken to improve things for you. The other point is that very few counsellors would, or should, act as judges in sessions and point the finger of blame at someone. They aren’t Judge Judy, and they won’t read an errant person the riot act or tell them they are despicable, should be ashamed, etc. What they can do, if they are good, is identify the issues, and explain to the errant person what the impact of their actions has been, and get them to examine whether what they did was really the best course of action. I realise how sanitised and bloodless that sounds, but any counsellor has a responsibility to do what is best for both people in an MC session, to nurture changes and improvement, rather than identify someone who should be doing time in San Quentin. However, telling you to breathe deeply or how to manage panic attacks is more like individual counselling than MC anyway.

Re. the OBS, I think your plans are sound. I feel sorry for her, but it would be worse for her to unknowingly be married to a cheat who may bring home STDs than to know who and what she is dealing with.

I don't think you still get it .

Download the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER at amazon or Barnes and noble. It kind of looks like a sex manual but it isn't.

More importantly is you need a plan for what happens if something happens to your wife. What if you become the sole means of support for your family? Do you plan on working a minimum wage job at McDonalds? You sound exactly like all the stay at home moms that lose their husbands to death or divorce. Your living on a hope and a prayer. Plus, it is no coincidence that SAHDs are way over represented on the infidelity forums.

HP, you just learned the hard way that MC this early after D-day can be counter-productive and cause more harm than good. Don't even bother calling or a next appointment. Your WW needs to get into IC to figure out her own issues.

If you want to go to IC for yourself, that's understandable. Brother, I hit levels of rage that I never knew possible. I scared myself. So, I did go to see an IC, an anger management specialist and teacher (an XBH who divorced his unremorseful WW). He knew where I was coming from and what I was going through, because he'd BTDT, you know? Four sessions, once a month. Worth every penny.

Like your WW, mine wanted to go to marriage counselling because we needed to work on our communication skills. To me, this was an insult to my intelligence. My "inability" to communicate wasn't the reason she fucked another man. It's a way to deflect attention away from the real issue (the affair). My FWW tried very hard to blame me and to get me to accept some responsibility for her cheating. The only thing that accomplished was to push me ever closer to filing for a divorce. Now, I foolishly waited for six months before I finally made IC a condition of R (a very common approach and one I think necessary for the vast majority of wayward spouses).

Tell the OBS. Stop letting the fear get the better of you. This woman deserves to know the truth about her life! By continuing to keep this a secret, you become an accomplice to the lies, to the deception, and to the affair itself. You don't deserve to be the keeper of this secret, to decide for her what's best for her life. Stop. Tell her! Today. No more ifs, ands or buts, about it. Do the right thing, hurtpenguin. Trust me, you'll feel much better about it once it's finally done.

Chappie:

GENERAL STATEMENTS: Please refrain from making statements that generalize gender, WS/OP/BS, race, religion or political alignment. Also do not presume to speak on behalf of other people.

Anyway, I have researched and located the OBS but have not disclosed to her yet. The sole reason being I do not want to interfere in my fiancée ability to successfully look for another job. I've made a decision that if my WW leaves her job I will tell the OBS everything I know. If the OM leaves the job, I will tell the OBS. If my timeline for 100% NC expires without either the OM or my WW finding another job, I will tell the OBS.

This is a tough call in my opinion. Your timeline being what? 2 weeks? 30 days? The first rule is to blowup the affair, and the best way is to expose to the OBS.

First she says she's given up, and now she can't live without you.

She did surprise me by arranging for us to go to a dinner and a movie this last weekend. We were able to spend that time NOT discussing anything regarding the A, her work or the kids, but instead enjoying each others company and reminiscing about past times together. It felt good to escape all the pain and tension for a while and with my best friend and woman I love. It helped to shine a light on exactly WHAT I will be fighting for if I choose to R.

I'm not sure what to make of this. From her position, or yours. Is this rug sweeping on her part, misdirection? Or is it just you wishing things weren't as they are?

I guess it would be up to you to OBJECTIVELY try to figure out if she is truly sincere, or pulling another fast one.

I have a hard time with not telling the OBS because of financial reasons. Understandable, but still troubling.

The sooner she (OBS) knows, the better your chances in the long run.

Personally I think it's a mistake not to tell the wife. I always cringe when I hear a betrayed spouse say "I understand but our situation is different". One of the reasons to tell is to ensure there is no back-sliding. I really worry for you going forward if you don't tell.

Hey everyone,

Thanks again for all the posts and encouraging words of support. Thank you also to everyone for giving every opinion and angle (however harsh I might take it) as many times I'll ready something I didn't consider and any and all information/viewpoints is really helpful to me at this time.

To clarify a few things:

- We have both scheduled IC sessions (my first one is tomorrow, hers on Fri) Provided I feel comfortable with this therapist it will continue as long as it has to...

- Regarding the A, I now feel like the exposure has stopped it dead in its tracks. As I explained in my first post she took the next 5 days off of work after D-Day and since then has been accountable for all of her time. She has agreed to and been fully transparent with her phone/email/work email since D-Day. She also emails me a copy of her daily schedule (meetings, etc) We have agreed that she would be home by a certain time every day (which she has complied with except for yesterday - more on that in a second). She has been disclosing daily ANY contact (however small) with the AP.

- I have seen her completed resume and watched her submit those resumes for 2 jobs thus far. We have also talked about disclosing to her superiors in a last ditch effort to see about salvaging her job (as we both know she is invaluable to the company and they might be able to run the AP out the backdoor with her bosses assistance)

I do believe maybe I am looking for the wrong things in MC and hopefully will get some clarity after my IC. It was just very rage inducing to be made to felt that way after driving 40 minutes each way and spending a ton of cash on someone who I chose because of their supposed specialty in dealing with infidelity. I do feel, however, our MC is still moving too fast forward as opposed to helping us both deal with me looking for the pieces of my demolished life.

As for yesterday a few things happened that I would like some input on from you great people on SI.

She had an appointment in the morning (which I knew about) that she told me was at 9am. I decided to leave early to do some contracted work (first time since D-Day I've left the home before her). I was waiting for her to text me that she was leaving (we agreed she would text me every time she was leaving any destination for another and when she arrived at the new destination) and when I didn't get a text by 9:15 I checked GPS location on my phone (another thing she agreed to do). I saw she was still at home. I texted her asking her why she was still at home and she said she was mistaken and that it was 9:30 but that she had blocked her work schedule out starting at 9 and given me the wrong time on accident. At this point I was already triggered and upset so I basically blew her off for the rest of the day even though she texted me constantly I didn't respond. A few of the texts:

I'm sorry for getting the times messed up and then not communicating that with you

I want you to know I'm thinking of you and love you

I'm sorry for hurting you and destroying everything, thank you for not giving up on me

After that last quote I finally responded:

I feel hurt again that you still fail to take extra precautions to ensure that what you tell me is 100% reliable and truthful. Every time you say/do something inconsistent it triggers severe anxiety in me and I begin to have doubts

Her response:

I truly am sorry for this morning, as soon as I realized I had the appointment wrong I should have told you. I need to stop assuming. I will work very hard to try and be better every day. I don't want to have any set backs. I'm committed to doing better

This really helped me for the rest of the day and I really believed she was starting to understand how important COMMUNICATION was to me right now. Not that she's not entitled to make mistakes ever again, or that a it was even a big deal. But to understand that I am looking for her to take into account how I will feel every time she says or does something that is not 100% accurate. Another one of our agreements was that IF there was a circumstance that would change what she had previously told me (time/place, etc.) that it would be communicated immediately so that I would then be able to change my expectation of her.

So now while I'm at my daughters sports practice I'm anxiously awaiting a text from my WW that she is on her way home (as I was really excited and wanting to see/be with her). It generally takes her about 30 minutes to get home. Slowly the time ticked PAST when she should have BEEN HOME and I was infuriated. She finally texted me "Driving". I texted her I was leaving when she got home and I was disappointed that she once again chose work over doing whatever was necessary to work on our relationship and that she should make arrangements for the kids when/if I decided to come back home. I told her every time she doesn't honor a promise or commitment to me, however small, I feel like she is disrespecting me and spitting in my face. I was shaking and so out of sorts I had to pull my child from practice early to leave before I had a break down in front of other parents/kids/family friends.

On my way home she texted how ashamed she was that she lost track of time and that she was in no way trying to put her job before us. When she got home she wanted to talk, so we sat in talked in the car (away from our children). She broke down crying immediately and told me she was in her bosses office discussing a pressing issue and was away from her phone. When she realized what time it was that she abruptly ended the meeting packed up all her stuff and sped home in a panic because she knew I would be upset. She said she didn't text me on the way because she was so focused on getting home as quickly as possible. (She did in fact make it in almost record time from when she indicated she was driving). She could barely look at me the whole time and when I asked her why she said because she's so ashamed and it hurts her so badly to see how angry/hurt/frustrated I am.

Wow this is longer than I expected. I just want to believe I am not being unrealistic in my expectations of her. I think because of all the shit choices she made that put me in this position to be so fucked emotionally that I have this burning need to know everything at all times that it is a small price to pay to communicate if you are going to be a little late or if plans change. I am at heart a very understanding person, however I also am cautious of allowing her to think its ok to give even the smallest of alternate facts.

Anyways I didn't end up leaving (because I didn't want to and because I believed her (stupid or not is up for debate) She really has been making effort, but I also told her all the effort and "good jobs" in the world are erased by one mistake. We ended up still having a decent night together without any more incidents.

Thoughts?

You're starting to see why they can't work together, and why you're going to need to expose fully.

You will heal zero percent until both of those things happen.