SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But saying "no offense but..," and then posting a litany of offenses is pretty PA. So is saying sorry when you're really not sorry.

I stand by my first point and I've been here a while. I'm shocked by how many ppl, posting lately, think a RA is ok, understandable and justifiable.

[This message edited by sewardak at 6:53 PM, November 17th (Friday)]

We can always do whatever we want. That is always your choice, and that includes getting back at your spouse.

As Randy said

Consequences are a bitch.

So when your M is just a bloody mess of @uckedupness--like mine has been since my RA--you can hang onto your "right" to get back at your spouse. Your natural consequences of a real life Jerry Springer episode in your own house will show you how immature, wrong, and misguided your self-righteousness was.

I was SO justified. Until I realized I was an equally dysfunctional fool.

I don't think it's shocking at all that people have differing views on RA. People have all kids of opinions on infidelity. Even on this board, there are posters who have stayed when most others even here wouldn't. Conversely, there have been people who have chosen to leave when many would stay to work it out. There are going to be different attitudes about boundaries in a marriage and when that contract ends. For some it's when divorce court filings are made, for others, it's when the vows have been broken by the other party, and for some others, they will hold to that fidelity until death do they part.

This is what I meant when I said that a bs can do what they need to heal from an affair. They are going to make decisions based on their truths.

I don’t look down on anyone who chooses to remain steadfast to religion and moral superiority and stays faithful to a cheater...so im not sure why the reverse can’t be true as well. i do not accept that I am anything near my cheating ex...because in my mind, there was nothing to be faithful to anymore. Her infidelity effectively rendered me a single man. She could win me back, and maybe I’d recommit, or she could fail, and I’d have the freedom to do what is right for me. But the difference between the betrayed MH and the original cheater? HONESTY and transparency...a weak person lies, blameshifts and trickle truths.. a strong person makes their choices with Fairness and TRANSPARENCY. just because i refused to be a cuckolded martyr for biblical righteousness, doesn’t mean i can’t look myself in the mirror with my head held high. I never lied, or deceived anyone to protect myself. I told my wife it was her job to prove to me she was my best option, because so far she had shown me that there was probably better out there. If she won me back, I’d be faithful again like always had and would be. If she failed, I’d be faithful to someone else, someone worthy of me.

^^ agreed there is something different about a RA that the BS tells the WS about beforehand. Doing it behind their back, is that really even a RA?

Right?? If you don't tell them, how do you "get revenge"?

Right?? If you don't tell them, how do you "get revenge"?

If you have the RA with someone they know - perhaps someone in an organization of which they are also a member - it will get back to them.

Yup. It will.

I would have zero problem looking at myself in the mirror if I decided to seek comfort in another man's arms. My marriage was obliterated.

So people who made a different decision than you, could also still be staying true to themselves.

Cheating has some nasty consequences, except perhaps for narcissists/sociopaths/psychopaths. I can't see any way that knowingly setting one's self up for nasty consequences is 'being true to themselves.

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i do not accept that I am anything near my cheating ex...because in my mind, there was nothing to be faithful to anymore. Her infidelity effectively rendered me a single man. She could win me back, and maybe I’d recommit, or she could fail, and I’d have the freedom to do what is right for me.

In your opinion ... I can't think of a way of commenting on this without violating the 'no religion' guideline.

I do urge you to show your statement to your pastor to get his/her response.

But the difference between the betrayed MH and the original cheater? HONESTY and transparency...a weak person lies, blameshifts and trickle truths.. a strong person makes their choices with Fairness and TRANSPARENCY.

Where does the MH fit in this construct? Blaming an A on one's partner's adultery sounds an awful lot like blame-shifting. That's a big problem, IMO, even if the RAer tells her WS about it.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:41 AM, November 18th (Saturday)]

If you don't tell them, how do you "get revenge"?

I am reminded of Roger Dorn's wife in the movie Major League. When she finds out he is cheating, she goes and hits on his enemy, Wild Thing, who doesn't know she is Dorn's wife. She has sex with Wild Thing, knowing it will cause Dorn a lot of pain.

An RA can make you feel an even score on the inside, so you keep it quiet (which I did initially). Or it can be an 'in your face!' thing. Either way it is seen by the betrayed as revenge and payback.

An eye for an eye makes everyone blind. If you feel it will be easier to manage with two blind spouses rather than one, go for it. But obviously an RA is a case of conflict and pain avoidance, just like what the WS did. So I will ask a future RA candidate what I asked myself,

"Why don't you divorce your WS instead of cheating on them?" If that is a valid question for a WS, it is a valid question for a BS considering an RA.

So, will you tell people what you did as payback? Will you tell mom, dad, grandpa, Auntie, your in-laws, your pastor? If not, then you know what you are doing is wrong and this is not a true debate.

If an RA is right, people would be:

Honest

Vocal

Proud

But they never are.

If you are miserable, get divorced. That is the only healthy option.

An RA is a regular A to everyone but the BS who is wanting to do it. Ask me how I know.

sewardak --

I guess I feel that I didn't make the vows to him, I made them to the institution of marriage itself. I vowed to do this in order to live up to the sacrement.

This is very interesting to me. Am I correct in thinking this might indicate that you are perhaps Catholic, and a marriage ceremony in your religion may have other spiritual undertones than the obvious joining of lives? Are you extending those beliefs onto other couples' marriages and vows even if they may not include such religious connotations, or does your stance take into consideration marriages and vows that are different and not "sacramental" in the same way? For example, certain Pagan handfastings that are very much individualized and about personal commitment as opposed to what you describe, or Humanist ceremonies that feature an absence of organized religion. Curious to hear your thoughts.

I am Catholic but i think the notion of marriage is, by and large, the same throughout many religions. It just happens to be one of the big ones in the Catholic church we give a name to. And I think other people not Catholic think of marriage as a big deal as well.

when you stand up and say your vows in any church i think you're making the vow of integrity. to throw that out the windows because the other half screws up?

it's like some are saying the only thing keeping someone faithful is the fidelity of the other person.

"Why don't you divorce your WS instead of cheating on them?" If that is a valid question for a WS, it is a valid question for a BS considering an RA.

If we are pertaining to married couples----exactly.

Religion aside, a marriage is a contract. A legal, binding contract.

It doesn't matter if your partner threw aside their vows. Infidelity may make the marriage void in your mind, but not by law. So go ahead and divorce first, then go have your affair/revenge.

When I made my marriage vows, I was not only making a promise to my husband, but a promise to myself. I'm declaring to my "people" - my friends and family that I will be faithful to this man. Part of my husband's healing has been dealing with the shame and grief over his loss of integrity. He didn't only betray me - he betrayed himself as well. How could betraying myself with an RA help me heal in any way?

If my husband instead, betrayed me by getting hooked on heroin...would it make sense to go and inject myself - to show him how it feels? If I became an adulterer too - that's a positive thing?

Personally, I would view my engaging in an affair as more heinous than my H's affair - because I now know first hand how utterly destructive it is. I didn't know before - none of us did...read in JFO - we are absolutely gobsmacked at how painful it is...I always knew I didn't want my husband to be unfaithful and intellectually I knew if it happened - it would hurt. But until you actually experience it - you don't know how it rips at the fabric of everything - damn - so destructive!! To now truly KNOW that - and then choose to inflict that pain on another person, especially someone I love?? Nope - I don't have that in me.

I hate the term "revenge" affair. It's an affair - no matter how you justify it. It assumes you have a "right" to cheat. It's an entitled mindset. How is that any different from any WS? Entitlement is at the core of nearly every affair.

Lastly, when I see a BS start a new thread in the wayward forum because they have now become a MH, I despair for the fresh pain they've now introduced to their marriages and families. But, until recently, you would see they were posting because they too recognized they betrayed their values and made their situation that much more difficult and were seeking help to fix what they further broke. What we've seen lately is MH's actually propose RA's as a form of healing...as a solution to other's pain. That is what is most egregious to me, here, in a forum of people drowning in pain from someone's decision to cheat. Not that a damaged BS has poor coping mechanisms and self soothes the same way their WS did...but that they now encourage other fragile members to cheat as the way to heal.

[This message edited by sassylee at 9:58 AM, November 19th (Sunday)]

Exactly sassy, fucking exactly. The do anything you want to heal entitlement is the advice that shocks me.

If I choose to inflict the same pain on my WH- I mean, if that is my GOAL, then I don't really love him and I have no business being here.

However I think some people don't do it as revenge per se. I actually think they more often do it as self comfort. It's misguided and if they want to R it's a mistake IMO. If you want to D, have at it, but I don't think for most couples that it can really help.

I don't give a crap about vows. Don't really believe in god anymore. But we had that bond between us and the understanding that we would be each other's only while building a life and family together. That's the broken vow I care about. He's been busting his ass for a year to prove himself to me now. If I go out and cheat, I might as well sign the papers now, because I know what that reaction will be.

I don't know, to each his own, I don't blame anyone for having those feelings. I just think they are misguided and wrong, and don't aid in healing. If screwing other people aided in healing, wouldn't we see lots of ecstatic hookers, groupies and truck stop sweeties everywhere? They're the saddest people I've ever met. Same with confirmed players who hang out in bars.

But I don't think people win others over in arguments on forums for the most part. I've been known to change my mind about some things when presented with a different viewpoint from my own, but something like this that has its roots in morality I don't think will be easily changed in either direction.

I agree with you, sewardak.

that the BS should do anything they want to heal and if that includes fucking someone else then go for it.

I have noticed a subtle change over the years here at SI. There are many more people that are on the "anything goes if the BS feels it will help their healing" train. Like holding people at gunpoint or vandalizing property is okay, cheered and told they are rock stars for doing so. Just like fucking other people in response to your WS's infidelity is more "acceptable" here now.

I do feel there may be shades of gray, though. DevastatedDee situation, for instance.

It's like I was flashed back to being that betrayed and hurt 16-year-old. No real thought went into it. No logic was accessed. No question was asked. I was out of my mind. I strolled in that guy's apartment and performed like a sex goddess when I should have been weeping and wailing instead. PTSD from before reignited by PTSD in the present. I guess you could call it a breakdown.

However, for most, the "revenge" affair is thought about, weighed, planned and executed. It is a choice. In many cases I feel that it is even worse than the original infidelity. Many WS's and BS's are shocked at the level of devastation, pain and suffering that is inflicted upon the BS. Now, the BS knows what it does to the spouse and they still go ahead and do it. Doesn't matter the intent. For revenge, comfort, or "healing". Does. Not. Matter. If having an affair was wrong for the WS it is most certainly wrong for the BS to indulge in an affair. It is an unhealthy coping mechanism.

I was one that struggled mightily with the thought of a RA. I didn't have one - but that decision had nothing to do with "two wrongs" or my level of commitment to him...or even my own integrity within my definition of marriage. The vows were blown to hell with his infidelity - and while, yes..I could just take my pound of flesh through divorcing, it would also even further the sense of injustice I already felt (by what the divorce would do to me, my lifestyle) and it would transfer many of the consequences subsequently onto my children. I am not saying that is the case in every divorce...but it was most definitely the case had I divorced.

So what I was left to reconcile was not just his infidelity...but also the sense that there was a deep injustice. As we moved forward, my WH had the privilege of a faithful spouse while I carried the lion's share of the pain from his choices. Even in trying to share it with him I felt a strong disconnection because he simply had no frame of reference in which to understand. Perhaps this would had been different had I had a truly remorseful spouse...but sometimes you don't know you don't have a truly remorseful spouse, you are left foundering with your own questions about why you cannot seem to get beyond it, and it is up to you to explore every potentially healing option. As many discussions as I had on the RA topic, it was only when I came to understand and accept that there was simply no justice to be had - not in the truest sense of what I was wanting. It was only when I came to understand that he deserved an unfaithful spouse (because of his choices), whereas I NEVER deserved an unfaithful spouse, that I was finally able to look at the notion of a RA simply from the perspective of which it would affect ME. That was when I made my decision. It had absolutely nothing to do with him or my commitment to the marriage - mine or the institution of it. We each have our own right to make that definition.

I will add this as a point of consideration. The "moral high ground" has its own inherent potholes that can be just as damaging to the marriage and the BS as any RA. I'd encourage anyone that is so resoundingly denouncing a RA as a concept (without the actual experience of having had one) to also do some introspection of exactly HOW the moral high ground is serving you. It may not be for the exact reasons you believe. - "But for the grace of God go I". (This is not directed at any particular poster...just based from my own experiences.)

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 12:41 PM, November 19th (Sunday)]

Truthsetsmefree,

I can only speak for myself, but one can denounce revenge affairs (or affairs as I call them) without needing to have one...just as I can denounce domestic abuse without having been an abuser or denounce addiction without doing drugs and being addicted.

As for the moral high ground...the term has a negative tone to it but I feel it’s impossible to expect others in my life to treat me morally or with integrity if I don’t do so myself. Instead of lowering myself to my H’s immoral choices during the affair, I instead offered him reconciliation if he could behave with integrity in the future (that sounds clunky - basically meet me where I am instead my meeting him where he was by having an affair myself).

Tit for tat thinking is so dangerous. It breeds resentment and scorekeeping - I can’t imagine having a happy marriage on those terms. And again - I understand the stressors that result in the selfish choice to have affairs...but that doesn’t mean I think affairs should be endorsed as the way to heal your marriage.

[This message edited by sassylee at 12:57 PM, November 19th (Sunday)]

I don't think moral high ground has been mentioned very much at all on this thread. I don't think I'm better than him. It's just this is how I have to do life to live with myself! It really has nothing to do with any other person.

Moral high ground implies someone is better than another and they throw it in their face. I don't think anyone on this thread is doing that. I'm. Not sure why it is even mentioned.

[This message edited by sewardak at 1:09 PM, November 19th (Sunday)]

Sassy - I appreciate your point and certainly respect your right to your opinion. To clarify my point, I am neither leaning heavily left or right when it comes specifically to a RA. Where I can denounce an affair as simply inappropriate within the context of a committed, monogamous relationship, I do think what is a relatively black & white concept (for me personally) can become gray when certain conditions become involved. That's not to say that one should have a RA (remember - not leaning left or right here, personally speaking)...but I think the concept that it falls under the same grounds (or even as being worse as some posters have said) as a primary affair is not so easily reconciled. That is, of course, my opinion.

As an example, and since you referenced it, suppose a woman involved in a physically abusive relationship, devises a plan and kills her abuser one night. Assuming your position is that murder is wrong (and that IS an assumption for the sake of forwarding the conversation), would you hold her act to the same standard as a woman that murdered her wonderful, kind partner for - say, insurance money?

I understand that this may be more an extreme example but I am trying to make the point that there are always extenuating circumstances...we must give allowances to gray areas. It doesn't mean that the actions are good...it just means that our actions are based on a culminations of our circumstances and experiences. We give these considerations to our WSs as we try to reconcile their choices...and I think it equally important that we give these considerations to BSs as they try to navigate their way to their own internal reconciliation.