SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

While your posts will remain, you can make a post titled “mod please,” and they will deactivate your profile so that nothing new comes to you via PM and you can no longer post.

I’d suggest you not do this. Like you, i wasn’t ready for SI—very similar situations. But once I was ready, it was invaluable.

I’d recommend keeping the option to return open. What you don’t want to hear today may be very helpful one day.

Good luck to you and your kids.

ETA: I apologize for my snark. I had, as many do, spent a long time crafting a carefully worded response to you, and seeing, “I’m leaving, I don’t want to hear what you have to say” was sort of triggery. I’m sorry.

[This message edited by solus sto at 6:51 PM, January 21st (Sunday)]

Don't go. Private message me instead if you like. Everyone does tend to get really impatient around here. But if they remember back to their own experiences, they realize it can take time. You don't owe anyone anything, even though sometimes people here act like you need to report progress with each post or something. You don't.

Your husband didn't admit anything the first time. I am astonished that he actually snuck out of the house when you confronted him. That's pretty freakin lame. He's not going to admit anything now, either. Unfortunately you are going to have to do some deep thinking about your own boundaries and make a decision without any participation from him. I'm pretty sure once you find your ground and your voice, he will panic and make some changes. But you are going to have to be "the decider" here, he's simply not up to it. My guess is he will only pull his head out of his ass when he thinks he's going to lose you.

Good luck with whatever you do. Peace.

@annanew how do I private message you??? I’d really like that. The only option that looks like private messaging is grayed out though so I can’t click on it. Maybe it would let me reply if you send me a pm? Idk. I really appreciate you and your kindness. I’d like to talk with you more. Thank you so much for offering. It means a lot to me. Thank you as well for your patience and understanding...

I'm sorry it feels like everyone is rushing you. It just sounds like you are doing the pick-me dance trying to get him to see how great you and the family are. The problem is that right now he has both. He has the great family and wife and the escorts... on the side. He is enjoying having both so why should he have to give up one? His moral compass went out the window when he chose to pay escorts... He isn't going to make that choice unless he is made to.

The problem for you is that the longer you wait the more likely something else will happen. STD, baby, psyco gf, or love...

Alexis - when I found out my WH had 2 affairs, he immediately pointed to all my faults. I didn’t initiate sex enough. I shut down rather than talk to him. And there was some truth to that. And I immediately looked at me to figure out what I could change. I started working out. Got my hair cut. Made an effort to be more emotionally available. Stopped checking in all the time (no checking text messages, phone logs, etc...). But during that, I also had a friend suggest I read up on co-dependency. And so I did. And I realized what I was doing. I was changing me, to try and change him. To try and “control” him and “make” him see what he did and how bad he screwed up.

And after six weeks, I began to work with a friend to help me find a way to tell him he had to leave. Because I was so afraid and it was so difficult to find the words. But I knew, deep down I needed to. At seven weeks, I found out his affair never ended. Made telling him to leave very easy.

We are now (I believe) in R. He flat out tells me he manipulated me to believe it was my fault so I would “back off” and he was more “free” to continue the affair. It took me realizing nothing I could do would stop him from what he was doing. That I could not force him to that conclusion. It took me telling him to leave, for him to start to open his eyes and really see who he had become.

Voicing it out loud is terrifying. It is why I literally had a friend helping me with what to say. Because I knew I was no longer strong enough to fix myself and carry what he was dumping on me. I understand your fear. But, unfortunately, it won’t go away and you won’t be able to “nice” him into confessing and changing.

Consider looking into co-dependency. Reading up on it is what helped open my eyes to what I was doing. I will be forever greatful to the woman who suggested I look into it for myself.

@alynn0728 when you say you are in R do you mean in recovery with your husband? Like you’re actually working together to repair your marriage? If so I’m happy for you. I know it’s not for everyone but I would really like that to be my ultimate goal.

What book on codependency did you read? I know I’m codependent. I don’t deny that. But I’m open to checking out the book if you have one to recommend. At the moment im listening to an audiobook about “how to have difficult conversations”. I’m finding it helpful. My husband knows I’m listening to it. So I’m sure he must know why especially when I’ve told him how when it comes to him I have a hard time saying everything I feel I need to because I have this weakness when it comes to him. I’m just not good dealing with him being defensive either. The second he becomes defensive I shut down. So I’m looking into new ways to handle that and new ways to word things. This book covers that a bit too.

Anyway thank you for you kind & understanding reply. I wish I could private message but I don’t know how. I’d love to talk with you & annanew privately.

Here I thought I was going to leave this group but after Annanew & your post I feel better and more understood. I hope I can figure out private messages. 😬😬

Anyway thank you so very very much for replying. Talk more soon I hope.

Alexis - yes we are working to try and repair our marriage. It’s only been 4 months since the second disclosure, so I still think I am a far ways away from knowing whether it will be recoverable. My WH was the expert at defensiveness, gaslighting and making me question things I saw with my own eyes. In four months, he has only been defensive a handful of times. And backed down as soon as I pointed it out, and lately, he has got better at realizing it himself. But he found an IC on his own. Started going to SA meetings, on his own, and started group therapy with his IC, on his own. I realized he needed to change for himself. The final shove for me, was looking at my son, who was emotional as I’m certain my WH was as a child and had it stomped out of him, and knowing with absolute certainty I had to stop it. I had to be the end of a line of unhealthy relationships. It is so very scary to stand up for yourself. As a co-dependent, I truly felt I couldn’t survive if I did. If I let him fall or fly on his own. I promise you, what he is doing is NOT your fault. Even if you were the perfect wife, it wouldn’t be enough.

I recommend both “Co-dependency No More” and “Codependency for Dummies.” It has helped me slowly put the focus on me, and what I can do.

Wow thank you so much for sharing that with me.

I believe I read the Co-Dependancy No More book nearly 20 years ago when I was 15-16 years old and an aunt of mine thought I was codependent on my bf at the time with whom I ultimately was with into my early twenties when he suddenly and unexpectedly passed away in a very tragic accident. By then we were engaged at the time of his passing. It may be the same book but I will look it up and either way it certainly can’t hurt to check out again.

As for the defensive nature my husband has... I’m so bad at dealing with it. I’m so non confrontational by nature. For example Wednesday he took my suv to work due to the snow. Thursday morning I got in my car to find the passenger seat fully pushed back & reclined as well as the few items I had on the floor chucked in the back seat. What am I supposed to think? Not to mention he was 2.5 hours late coming home. I did try to ask him about it and he replied that a water bottle slid under my seat and he got it out. Then told me I was being ridiculous. Mind you a water bottle won’t fit under my seat and why did the seat Brad to be reclined back all the way and everything else chucked into my back seat. I kinda tried to mention it today again but he was instantly defensive. Honestly idk what he even said because it couldn’t have been more than a couple words but it’s the tone in his voice and it was defensive so I dropped it.

Well anyway thank you again for your understanding and I truly wish u the best on your marital recovery.

Talk soon!

I totally understand about the difficulty in responding to the defensiveness. Honestly, I stopped trying after awhile. I can see now I was depressed, and didn’t have any “fight” in me. The reality is, we were stuck in a negative cycle with each other (if you listen to Podcasts, I recommend “Healing Broken Trust.” While it is “for” coupe trying to recover from infidelity, there is also a lot of information helpful for just the BS).

I am working now on forgiving myself for “putting up” with the defensiveness and gaslighting as long as I did. I know now, those types of behaviors would be a HUGE red flag for me, an indicator he’s trying to divert my attention from him and his behavior.

As an example of a “healthier” approach. I too got in my WH car about a month after D-Day and the car kept “defaulting” to a reclining position. It was a HUGE trigger for me. My WH immediately apologized for engaging in behavior that resulted in me being triggered by that. He explained he had gotten to our daughter’s gymnastics early and had laid back. Explained our son was with him, but said he knew exactly where my brain went and he was sorry for what he had done to put those worries in my head. Before, even if he had done nothing wrong, he would have turned it around on me for questioning and made me question my sanity.

I know it’s hard to see, but the defensiveness, gaslighting and overall making you question yourself, it’s emotional abuse. And you don’t deserve it.

First, I want to say that I am happy you are staying. If people are giving you advice that isn't what you needed, just say so. There is always someone here that has walked your path.

I believe I read the Co-Dependancy No More book nearly 20 years ago

I wanted to come in about this. I read it when I was in my twenties. I got it at the time, but when I read it again in my late thirties, it really landed a lot more for me.

Alexis, thisis your journey. Take all the time you need. I understand the difficult questions can be challenging and feel combative, remember they are coming from people who are in the same boat with different details. The passion comes from no one wanting to see you suffer like they have.

My questions:

1. What is your personal truth about your worth and value?

2. We know how much you love him, how much do you love yourself?

3. Have you always been afraid? Why?

4. Are you willing to gather the information you need to confidently confront this issue?

5. What do you need to do to find your strength?

It appears that you have been squashed in so many areas, that you truly are lost. I see your desperation and feel your anxiety. I believe you know the truth, that you are being lied to and manipulated. I believe your judgement about the private, separate bank account is spot on and revealing to me that only one of you in this marriage wants to fix it.

It's time for your spirit to stand up and fight for your dignity and self respect. This needs to become about YOU, not him. He's made his choices and when given the opportunity to come clean he refuses.

Take it one day at a time and pay attention, you will get where you're going. Hang in there, I know you're devasted and feeling attacked isn't motivating.

Alexis, hi and hugs to you

Many years ago I came here, very raw and, frankly, wanting everyone to tell me that all will be well, he'll see the light knowing just HOW MUCH I love him.

I wasn't ready to hear the truth, spoken out of experience by the lovely folks here. I thought I could fix him, I thought I could cope (always been a tough one, me!).

In reality, things only got worse, he continued to act out, he became more controlling and abusive (at one point he got so angry he lost his shit and reversed our car into me. While I know, actually, he didn't want to hurt me, the fact that he did it was a major turning point for me. After he was arrested at our home and business, I found a burner phone (#10, there was a lot). Instead of checking I was ok, he'd come straight home and tried to book an escort.).

I then got my shit together. I let go, finally, of the outcome. I got my power back. How? I left him.

I'd like to tell you that we're now living happily ever after.

What actually happened, is he crumbled, grudgingly started the 12 steps and is slowly getting into recovery. It's a long, hard process. He's having to unlearn a lifetime of wayward, entitled thinking, of not feeling good enough, of seeking outside validation (escorts, anonymous hook-ups and other more mundane stuff). Defensiveness, although better, is still an issue, controlling, although better, is still an issue and intimacy of any kind is a struggle (baby steps). He's accountable for his time and whereabouts, that helps, but probably not enough for me.

All I can do is work on my own healing, which is also a long, hard process. Triggers still whack me upside the head on a daily basis. I can't go anywhere within a 100 mile radius without wondering who he's f#cked in that locality (there were hundreds).

And on a daily basis I think "I really don't need this crap".

In hindsight, even with his(now) willingness to get into recovery, I wish I hadn't come back. We will never have a 'normal' relationship and I accept that part, but the fact is, he is the biggest trigger.

Could you live like that?

(((Hugs)))

I read all your replies and I just wanted to say thank you to everyone. I don’t have time to reply to everyone right now but I will later today.

Thank you for the kindness.

Hi Alexis,

I am very glad you have decided to stay. A thing that gets said a lot in this forum is, "Take what you need, and leave the rest". It is good advice, but it misses the point that people are usually emotionally vulnerable or lost when they post here, so they don't 100% know what they need, and their shields may be down. Receiving a blunt or harsh response can be hard to handle, but the more people know about what you need, the better they can tailor their advice and support to you.

It was very brave of you to come to the forum, and it looks like you are building a rapport with several forum members who are on your wavelength. That can take time to happen, just as getting to know new people takes time, but once you do find some kindred spirits here, the help and support can really be a comfort. So as I say, I am glad that you are staying.

I can honestly say that no-one here wants to bash you or criticise you. There is an element of 'tough love' here, where people may ask challenging questions, but it is done with the best intentions. People may be concerned that a certain approach or attitude is not beneficial to you, and that can sometimes be expressed in a way that could be interpreted as an attack. It is never meant that way. What people really want is to help you back to happiness, and to find a way to achieve greater openness and security in your marriage. And there are many caring and selfless people here who will travel with you on that journey, if you want some company.

Thinking of you, and wishing you well.

I have so many posts to reply to and I’m sorry I haven’t had a chance to.

I do have a question though. I’m trying to (as many of you know) build up my confidence, or grow some balls so to speak, to talk to my husband about the incriminating evidence I’ve found when I discovered this at the end of June. Since I discovered it and dropped HUGE hints to him like saying my friend found out her husband is paying for sex and so on, which I actually said to him the day I found out. the phone bill has been mostly clean since June though short of 1 I caught back in November. So I assume he figured out the phone bill is how I discovered this because I never told him how my friend caught her husband and he actually even asked me “how did he get caught” to which I replied “I don’t know”. Because I didn’t want to give up how I caught it. I never would’ve looked to begin with but I had a bad feeling and other signs convinced me to look.

ANYWAY- my question is how do you talk to someone who tends to become instantly defensive &/or irritated. I DO NOT wish to argue with him, yell or scream or anything like that. That’s not who I am. I just wanted to sit down and have an honest open conversation with him. I’ve written letters to him but I never give it to him or read it to him. I’m just unsure how to bring it up and then how to handle the defensiveness and reign the conversation back in. I don’t want to argue. I tend to shut down the moment I sense he’s irritated or gets defensive. So I also need to figure out how to not back down when I sense he’s getting defensive or irritated. Again I don’t want to argue. I don’t want to snap at him. I don’t want to yell. I don’t want tempers flaring. I just want to have a calm, kind, understanding, honest conversation with him.

So I guess if anyone has advice about this I’m open to hearing it.

Thank you

[This message edited by Alexis13 at 10:09 AM, January 23rd (Tuesday)]

Also... I don’t have access to your investigative tips section unfortunately and would really like to gather as much info as possible to have ready when I do talk to him so he has no reason or way to deny what’s clearly in front of him.

Does anyone have recommendations as to other things I can research to find other evidence. Like if he has other emails or is on another website like that stupid one he paid for 9 years ago desperate housewives dot com 🤮🤢🤬😡 or any other site cheaters use. I need to be prepared.

I’m so scared and I know seeing this stuff is going to be so painful for me but I need to gather the info up. More than just the #’s on the phone bill and other random things. 😞

So I was listening to my audio book on “how to have that difficult conversation” and my husband was listening to it with me when he asked why I’m listening and my first instinct was to say “I don’t know” which I did... but then I decided that’s not right so I pressed pause and told him how it was recommend to me because I struggle with having certain difficult conversations w/certain people and thought it’d help. Then I said “by the way my therapist really wants us to go to marriage counseling and I know you don’t want to but I need you to go with me because I’m really having a hard time right now and I’m feeling very insecure. I keep asking you every couple weeks ‘what is wrong with me’ and things like that and I feel that it would help me and us to go so we can work through whatever is making me feel this way” so he then said “if you really want me to go, I will do it for you” :) I know it’s not confronting him or anything but it’s a stepping stone for me. I think in a therapy office setting it will be helpful for us both. It will help me to talk to him about the issues at hand in a more comfortable environment with a therapist present to help guide the conversation. To me this is a victory. I know he will go so tomorrow I’ll be calling the only place I know of in the area that specializes in marriage counseling. It’s something. I’m happy about it.

I don’t have access to your investigative tips section unfortunately and would really like to gather as much info as possible to have ready when I do talk to him so he has no reason or way to deny what’s clearly in front of him.

The Investigate Tips Forum opens after you have written 50 "real" posts. You are currently at 35. Consider getting a VAR to velcrow under his seat on the car. I do want to caution that you have evidence he is cheating and using escorts and that it's bad. Be careful that the investigative work doesn't become you life 24/7 it will eat you up inside. I would focus my attention on how much money he is spending on these sites, escorts and other Affair related items.

Pleased to hear you that you got him to agree to marriage counseling. You can confront him during a session. You can ask to meet with the MC prior and tell her/him the situation prior. Normally, the rule is that you don't go to MS while some one is still in the Affair and/or is unwilling to give it up. If you use it as a tool to help you confront then that's ok.

I don't mean to be harsh or rude and I certainly do not want to scare you off of this site but I have a question for you. If you were to give him an ultimatum, What makes you think that he would choose escortes over you, the kids and family? Is that what your fear is based on?

Or is the word divorce what you are scared of? There are ways to give him an ultimatum without saying Divorce. You can talk about the money, the STD's, the kids and the fact that the more you find out the more you are losing respect, trust, even the ability to talk with him and love for him. That soon there isn't going to be anything left and then do a hard 180. We like to do Shock and Awe here but baby steps are better than nothing at all.

I sent you a PM to see if it worked (it does).

[This message edited by Freeme at 6:47 AM, January 24th (Wednesday)]

@FreeMe

Thank you for your reply. It’s greatly appreciated.

To try to answer your questions about what my fears are about confronting him are, whether it be he chose his secret lifestyle over our family or divorce...

Well, I honestly don’t think he’d choose escorts over us/me & our 2 Kids... I guess the thought of divorce scares the crap out of me though. Like sometimes I think if someone really loves you then they wouldn’t cheat so by him doing this does it mean he doesn’t want me anymore or love me anymore. But if he didn’t want to be with me why would we be house hunting right now? Why would he agree to go to marriage counseling with me? I just have a lot of fears. The further this goes on the more insecure I become. The more difficult I find it to say anything at all, even my bold obvious hints that I know what’s going on are less than before although I still drop them just not as often I guess.

Then there is the fact that I’m extremely non confrontational when it comes to him. Like I never ever want to upset him or annoy him or do anything to cause an argument. I’m not sure why I’m like this with him. It wasn’t always this way. I guess when I caught him on that desperate housewives dot com website 9+ years ago and I immediately confronted him (looking back I should’ve handled it differently) I printed everything out, drove straight to his work & called him outside to my car and chucked the copies on his lap and was crying hysterically. He denied it right then and there. I never brought it up again until 6 months later and I was so scared or nervous. I explained how badly it hurt me. Long story short I still never got an apology nor did he admit it but after that day things changed. Suddenly he was more loving and attentive to me. He was spending more time with me and things were really great. I was truly happy. So I never brought that up again. I figured at least I got my point out. But with that said I think it was his 1st initial reaction to deny it that changed me. He also becomes defensive very easily when I enquirer about things he may not like hearing about. So I shut down. It’s a bad cycle I’ve gotten into.

Yet although most people here don’t seem to agree, I do know he loves me. I think due to things he’s been through in his life he’s just not good at talking and showing a lot of emotion about things. Oddly last night when he asked why we needed marriage counseling and I said because I think we need to learn to communicate better as one of the reasons I gave he said “I don’t have any problems communicating”. I’m not a therapist but I think that he’s wrong to a certain extent anyway.

As for tracking him I was thinking about using the gps tracking device that goes on our dogs collar and hiding it in his car. But at the moment its Not working correctly so I haven’t done it. Plus I think there’s a part of me that doesn’t want to do that. I fear the second I see he’s not where he’s supposed to be I’d want to drive to where he is and do idk what and also idk I feel wrong doing it. I hate even looking at the phone bill - like I’m invading his privacy and breaking his trust. I know how crazy that sounds considering what I’ve already found out but that’s just who I am.

Thank you for listening and for your reply. I’ll see if I can figure out where the pm’s are to see if I’m able to reply or not. M

Hi Alexis -

I am glad you found this tremendous resource but sorry you are here.

Please keep posting & reading & don't feel you are 'doing this wrong' or thinking that posters are urging you to "confront now" or do it with anger. This is YOUR life. Keep in mind many posters are much farther along in the process and also have had the benefit of reading many other stories of betrayal so they have seen generally what works & what doesn't. But here is the thing. Its all still opinion- and no one can predict the way your spouse will react.

There is something referred to here as the cheaters handbook - it is a fictitious idea of the type of attitudes, thinking and actions typically displayed by cheating spouses. While there are commonalities and themes that does not mean that each and every cheating spouse will act that way every time.

If/when you confront your spouse he may be truthful or he may lie (even in front of a marriage counselor) He may stop or he may carry on. He may flaunt it or hide it. He may want to keep the marriage or he may not. He may come to his senses and be appalled by what he's done it he may not. AND how he reacts/thinks today may change tomorrow.

I think that what many posters are urging you to do is to think through this and have a concrete plan of action that you are comfortable with carrying out. The when & where of confrontation isn't the issue, although I do think for you it us a good idea to have someone else there as support for you. The plan that you have going forward after the confrontation is of great importance. What if he denies it all? what is your next step then?

Gently, "I want him to admit his behaviour and stop it so I can forgive him and we can fix our marriage" isn't likely to work. It is rarely as simple as that.

This isnt a one time "mistake". It is a long-standing behaviour from what you have outlined.

Also, from what you have said it is likely he knows you know and he still hasnt admitted it to you and it seems he hasnt stopped.

We know you want keep your marriage and you are afraid - we get that, many if us have been there. Its scary to think of the what ifs.

I didn't want to confront every time I found new info - cause what if it was worse than I thought? What if he didn't really love me? what if he didnt want to change? what if we were heading for a divorce that I didn't want?

You've said you would be willing to forgive if he would admit it and stop. But what if he denies? What if he admits but doesn't stop? What if he stops but doesn't change his behaviour to you? What consequences are there for him and what incentive is there for him to change?

Thats what I mean about thinking things through and having a plan- I'm not saying you are doing things wrong at all-just urging you to be prepared!

That is why it was suggested to consult an attorney. It doesn't mean you are planning to leave him, it means you are finding out your rights and options just in case. It is being proactive for you and your children. What if he decides to leave you or cut off money after a confrontation- you need to be prepared. I'm not saying it WILL happen but please protect yourself and your children just in case. You have discovered a side of him you would not have expected existed- so now sadly you can't expect him to "do the right thing".

I really get that you are afraid of things changing and knowing intellectually that it isn't about you but still the feelings of it being your fault- I've been there... ! I understand about the idea of trying to MAKE myself more attractive! I played that "pick me" game - Heck I even set up role playing for us pretending in our bedroom that I was someone from a hookup site or "dates" where he could pretend to pick me up as a stranger in a bar.... You cannot win that game which I think you realize. But just know you are not alone!

I also wished for I LOVE you or an intimate kiss for years. That didn't come by MY changing me-that came from him changing HIM-HE was the problem not me. In our case he was SO ANGRY at the world he shut everyone out including me for years.

You and I have similarities in our stories. After confronting him when finding a hookup dating profile I rugswept everything after a minimal conversation of "okay we do still want to be married to each other". I thought the problem was solved. 5 years later I found another dating profile and messages soliciting sex from strangers. This time the situation was a gazillon times worse because we didnt fix it the first time. You CANNOT just get him to admit his action and then forgive and expect life to move on and your marriage to improve! It is more than likely to happen again if he doesnt or won't work on him and dig into why he feels it is/was okay to do this snd be willing to make changes. YOU cant fix your marriage alone

My husband and I did reconcile but it was truly tough. He was all in and changed himself and his thinking.

Honestly I was like you and never considered divorce. I kinda buried my head in the sand and assumed I could fix it and he would be willing to change. HE wasn't always forthcoming, which was hard, and our communication was difficult (sometimes we would schedule a time to talk and sit inc silence for 1/2 hour cause neither knew what to say or how to start). But he was always remorseful and willing to change. I did a lot wrong and probably made it worse for myself but because I was persistent and refused to rugsweep and he was willing to do a lot of work to change we made it through.

Please know I am not judging you for how you are handling this. I just want you to know it is a long, hard road ahead of you no matter what direction you take. This website can be a supportive and helpful place, but it can also be a place where people will say things you may not be ready to hear, or things that are not relevant to you. Some do try to push agendas but most posters truly want to help you and guide you away from mistakes that are consistently made by betrayed spouses and towards things that tend to be successful.

That being said, Emotionless Infidelity (one where there is not just one single affair partner) is much different in many ways to deal with than a regular affair. Please go and join the Emotionless Infidelity thread on the "I can relate" forum. I believe you will find many insights and much support there.

Let us know if we can help and ask questions!

Hugs

LizzieJ