SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I know I said this a while ago, but I think you know that your thoughts about AP are not well reasoned. I am a firm advocate for taking a break and unpacking oneself before making drastic decisions. I don’t think you can make a valid decision with so much fog regarding AP. But I also know you owe your BW something more concrete than the wallowing you’re dragging her through...

First and foremost, SHE is owed a decision. You keep saying you owe her freedom from this, but she also needs some agency in this. But if all she wants is what there was, she’s clearly not going to get that.

I maintain that a clearly articulated trial separation with desired decision points well stated would be ideal. That said, she may likely perceive it (and you might as well) as license for you to “go nuts...” It can’t be that. It needs to be framed and measured as a period of intense discovery, hopefully for both of you (Though it’s not valid to dictate her recovery, of course.) I don’t know if this is something you can/will do... But it’s a good way to avoid distracting yourself with concerns of your BW while you really work to understand what it is your mind is trying to redirect.

Thanks for the posts. We already tried a one month separation and my wife has mentioned another. But if we agree to a longer term one, I'm not sure I would use it wisely. I would likely use it as an opportunity to see what else was out there, I know that sounds terrible, it's just how I feel. That's why I'm not keen for a trial separation, if I leave next time it needs to be for good. I can't keep screwing my wife around with my indecision.

I know there is no chance with the AP, I wouldn't be leaving to try and spark something up with her.

One of the main things that's stopping me from comitting is returning to a sexless marriage. Pre marriage it was OK, but from year one it went downhill quick, then the only time we had sex was on ovulation days when we where trying for our 1st, we tried for 5 years, then basically no sex (maybe a few times a year) for 3 years until she wanted to try for the 2nd.

The affiar reminded me how much I enjoy sex, as silly as that sounds. I had gotten used to hardly any sex or only having 'mechanical' sex for making babies, I had forgotten how great it can be. My wife has never been a sexual person or done anything in bed for me so to speak and I know that won't change. So staying commits me to a sexless marriage.

I just don't feel that's a good enough reason to leave, one day I will need to look my kids in the eyes and tell them why mummy and daddy split up. Can the answer really be becuase our sex life was bad?

This is why the decision to leave is so hard, I do still love her and I love my kids so much, but sex is such an important part of a relationship, I don't want to go the rest of my life without a satisfying sex life. It just feels like such a selfish reasons to break up a family.

[This message edited by Steve23 at 1:59 PM, August 10th (Saturday)]

Then divorce. You want a relationship with more sex. Do the right thing and divorce. Tell her why. That is your love language and a normal expectation for intimacy. If she was willing to see a sex counselor would it change your mind?

I just don't feel that's a good enough reason to leave

Why? It was a good enough reason you used to cheat. Just not good enough to do the right thing? That makes absolutely no sense. Having intimacy it a healthy part of a committed relationship. Would you want your children to be in a committed relationship miserably due to no sex/intimacy. Probably not. So, why isn't that good enough reason for you?

Zugzwang,

If only leaving was that easy. I still care for her and she doesn't have that much of a support system in place. She has always found it hard to make friends so I feel like I'm all she has.

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If only leaving was that easy. I still care for her and she doesn't have that much of a support system in place. She has always found it hard to make friends so I feel like I'm all she has.

Your wife is not an object that you decide whether you want to keep or not. You are a weight on her back with this attitude. Who would want to have sex with someone who is so entitled to think this way, to think they’re better than a person who sticks with their values and commitments?

Please just pull the plug, so your wife can live an honest life, and you can have sex with people who share your values.

She will learn to get out and meet people. Don’t worry, you’re only holding her back.

@Steve123

I’m curious...have you and your wife had the discussion about how sex is important to you? Is she open to the conversation with you or in therapy? Does she have some type of past trauma or maybe even some type of low hormone level issue causing a lacking sex drive? All things to consider and very real issues that can be explored with her doctor.

Many if not most women are driven sexually by the emotional connection to their partners. Men I think in many ways are driven by the biological gratification with emotions playing second to that. I think men desire connection, especially with those they love, but sex is a physical need.

Something else to consider and I’m thinking on the same lines as @Zugzwang in that your love language includes gratifying and frequent sex. Nothing wrong with that but I do wonder, will you be satisfied with sex with your wife if she is able to meet your needs? Or do you think it will be mundane therefore opening the door for cheating again? I think you need to figure out if it’s exclusively about the lack of sex with your wife and if she can try to meet your needs, or if you desire sex from a different partner(s) because that outcome would be very different.

[This message edited by Hutch at 9:08 AM, August 11th (Sunday)]

If only leaving was that easy. I still care for her and she doesn't have that much of a support system in place. She has always found it hard to make friends so I feel like I'm all she has.

You are describing her as a child. You the parent role. Her the child. Of course there is no intimacy when there are dynamics like that.

WS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:53 PM, August 11th (Sunday)]

You are describing her as a child. You the parent role. Her the child. Of course there is no intimacy when there are dynamics like that.

I didn't mean it to sound like that. We have been together for 15 years since 18, along the way we have both lost contact with friends, its been the two of us and we are (or where) each others best friends and support. I do feel a responsibility to look after and provide for her but i don't see her as a child. Maybe this isn't a healthy dynamic and we have became co-dependent.

your love language includes gratifying and frequent sex.

I hadn't really realised this was my love language until i read up on it following a IC session. The affair gave me this and its this that's missing in my marriage. I have discussed with my wife that i'm really missing physical intimacy, not sex but to be touched or hugged, understandably she doesn't want to hug or touch me very often.

I do wonder, will you be satisfied with sex with your wife if she is able to meet your needs?

I have been thinking about this question since you asked it over a week ago and i still don't know the answer. Maybe if i had greater self confidence i would leave, or if i could get over AP things would be better with my wife, i just don't know.

My first IC told me 6 months ago that she thought i was no longer in love with my wife and that we had been drifting apart for some time, and that she doubted i would get over the AP until i left and found someone else. Maybe she was right, i'm lost and don't know how to move forward.

My wife still loves me and i feel i owe it to her and the kids to keep trying. All i ever wanted was a wife that loved me and a family, why now that i have this am i so unhappy.

Maybe if i had greater self confidence i would leave

BINGO! This is why cheating has nothing to do with the marriage. It has to do with your lack of self confidence. No self confidence = no self love or respect. It is about who you are and your own choices. The state of your marriage has to do with you. The affair is the next level after the marriage. The root is always you. You just stated what you want. What you need to do.

and that she doubted i would get over the AP until i left and found someone else.

WHAT!!!! so, you should jump to another crutch. Your wife, friends that you no longer have, the AP, a future mate..they are all crutches to your lack of self confidence. Fill your own bucket up by yourself in a healthy way. Stop depending on other people to validate you and make you feel confident.

All i ever wanted was a wife that loved me and a family, why now that i have this am i so unhappy.

All you ever wanted was to love yourself. You are empty. A black hole. A goldfish that is never satisfied because of what you lack deep down. You can eat and eat all you want. It will never work. Never. No one can fill that void but yourself. If your IC isn't focusing on that, then you need a new IC.

I second that you need a new IC.

One - If people fall out of love, it doesn't mean they can't fall back in. Though I think you are going to find the longer this goes on you are killing your chances of that being an option for the two of you if you haven't already.

Two - People are not crutches, external validation has temporary benefits, and a lot of times without internal validation all we are doing is getting a little happy over what is said or done but then doubling down on why we don't deserve it. External validation is hollow if we don't have the internal belief that we deserve it. That's what starts the cycle of seeking it out more and more and needing it more and more.

Your IC sucks. Suggesting you need a crutch to get over your AP is ludicrous. You have all of it within you if you would start focusing on the right things. Unfortunately, you keep choosing the fantasy because you don't want to face reality. I have been there and done that, so I know it is the case. I can commiserate with what you are going through but you have to stop telling yourself stories and fueling the feelings. You have to face reality and stop hiding from it. You have to find the things that are impeding you from loving yourself and taking responsibility for your own happiness instead of waiting to get it from others.

No one can fill that void but yourself.

You have to find the things that are impeding you from loving yourself and taking responsibility for your own happiness

I don't know how. The past year nothing has brought me any joy, i have read self help books, focused on the kids, went walking in nature, etc. Recently i have stated back at the gym with a personal trainer, this has made me feel better about myself, but unfortunately brings back thoughts of the affair as i was attending the gym regularly when it was going on.

Whenever my confidence starts to increase my mind goes back to the AP and i think i could get her back. This isn't what i should be thinking!

Your IC sucks.

She was my first, i maybe was paraphrasing, she didn't tell me to jump straight into a new relationship.

The second one also told me she thought i should leave, telling me separation didn't mean it had to be the end for my marriage but space and time apart may bring me clarity on what it is i want out of life. Similar to what others have said on here. But i don't want to live alone away from my kids. I'm afraid of the loneliness, again another confidence self love issue.

My wife is talking about separation more now, like i said she still loves me and hopes i will come back. I'm just not sure this is the best idea. It may come to her telling me to go soon.

Unfortunately, you keep choosing the fantasy because you don't want to face reality. I have been there and done that, so I know it is the case.

How did you achive this? I wake up in the moring and its the first thing i think of. I just want it to stop. I'm feeling so guilty about the thoughts i'm having. I have talked to my wife about this, i would love to wake up and just have a day where i'm not thinking of the AP or the pain i have caused my wife.

Found myself after I got so disgusted with who I was and became I couldn't stand to be in the same room with me. Found what made me happy. Hobbies, bucket lists. Maybe you should try a new IC and a life coach?

How did you achive this? I wake up in the moring and its the first thing i think of. I just want it to stop. I'm feeling so guilty about the thoughts i'm having. I have talked to my wife about this, i would love to wake up and just have a day where i'm not thinking of the AP or the pain i have caused my wife.

I know that feeling, I really do. There is no quick fix. I did the things zug mentioned, and eventually climbed myself out. I read books like "The Power of Now" to see how our thoughts control us instead of us controlling our thoughts. How our thoughts lie to us, and we have to be able to be an objective discerner.

I spent a lot of time reconnecting with my H. It was intentional, and I didn't give up on it just because one date didn't go the way I wanted it to, or because my feelings were not what they should have been on that date. I didn't get discouraged. I fully recommitted to my marriage and intentionally wooed my spouse and we reconnected. A commitment isn't just external, it's internal. If you can't do that, I do agree you should just separate.

I went to IC. I posted here and helped others. When I found myself thinking of the AP I would make sure to revise the story to include the truth rather than woulda coulda shouldas. I admitted to myself he wasn't the person I made up in my head. I stayed mindful of the moment, if I found myself thinking of the AP I changed the channel in my head. There comes a point you realize that you are thinking about them because you have made no room for anything else for too long. You have to start making room for other things and filling your life with them. It's a process and it takes time, time I am afraid you don't have any more with your own marriage.

You keep thinking the grass is greener, but it's greener where you water it. If you give your wife something different to react to, and really work on being there for you, she may come around and work on the things that you need. But, we don't get to cheat and lie to our spouse because they don't fill our needs. We either find productive compromises with our spouse, or we divorce. That's the only options.

I'm afraid of the loneliness, again another confidence self love issue.

You can’t go anywhere with this in your mind. You have to get to the point where your validation doesn’t come from the people you cling to. You have value, and it is there to share. But those in your life don’t owe you pleasure, love etc. This fear is what drives you to string your BW along. If you think YOU’RE scared, imagine how she feels.

It may come to her telling me to go soon.

Are you hoping she does this? So you don’t have to? That’s not the best plan, to hope she makes a decision before you. Why would you accept this outcome? You have this sense of what you “need” to do- You need to accept that your fear and indecision has irrevocably damaged your wife. Not even talking about the M- you broke her. Hiding from this outcome will never make things any easier or better. While you decide and worry about missing your children, you are a daily, visible reminder of how little she matters to you.

Recently i have stated back at the gym with a personal trainer, this has made me feel better about myself

Feeling better about yourself matters only incidentally right now. This should not be your goal, per se. KNOWING yourself, yes. But that means understanding/acknowledging that you’ve fallen far short of the mark here. Hoping your wife comes to her senses, kicks you to the curb, and frees you to get laid more likely WON’T make you feel better about yourself in the long run, I don’t believe...

Found myself after I got so disgusted with who I was and became I couldn't stand to be in the same room with me.

I haven't reached this point yet, but i certainly don't recognise the person i have become over the past 18 months. I was looking through old pictures from about 4 years ago with my wife a few weeks ago, and i didn't recognise myself. I don't think of myself as a bad person, yes i have done this horrible unspeakable thing, but i don't think of myself as bad. Maybe i should.

Are you hoping she does this? So you don’t have to? That’s not the best plan, to hope she makes a decision before you.

I'm not hoping for this. I have told her i will accept if she wants to end things and i will support the kids. I truly want her to be happy and if that means her starting over and finding someone that truly appreciates her then i will need to live with that.

Hoping your wife comes to her senses, kicks you to the curb, and frees you to get laid more likely WON’T make you feel better about yourself in the long run, I don’t believe...

This isn't my goal and i have never been the type of person who just wants to screw as many women as possible. My affair stated as an EA before it became a PA, the emotional connection is just as important to me.

[This message edited by Steve23 at 1:59 AM, August 21st (Wednesday)]

This might be an odd question....

Me and my wife have always talked about building our own house and we now have the finances to do this.

Our life up until this point has always been whats next...get married, buy a flat, buy a house, have our first kid, buy a bigger house, have the second kid. Now that we have done these things there isn't a big whats next.

Building our own home could be our next project and and give us something to get excited about, however i'm concerned this would just be a temporary detraction.

We haven't been good at just settling with nothing new to do and we might just hit this issue once the house is complete.

Any thoughts?

I have mixed feelings about the house idea. The pro and the con are the same thing: it implies permanence. The house could represent what you describe, a bonding project that reunites the two of you. It can also be a fresh start, a move to an environment that has no memories of texting AP, preparing to see AP, coming home from AP. I don't know if you ever actually brought AP to your home, but if you did, a clean slate could be a huge help to both of you in getting free of those triggers.

But you're also in a very precarious situation here. You're actively talking about separation and still pining for the woman who helped you break your BW's heart. What happens if you break ground on your dream house and then split up? You're going to take a financial beating, unless one of you wants to live inside the failed dream and the other one agrees to subsidize that. It's way too early for you to launch into the project with the promise to each other that you won't D. Pretending that's true at this stage would be a massive rugsweep.

Is there something else you've always talked about doing together that is more achievable in the short term? Travel, for instance, without the kids?

I don't think of myself as a bad person, yes i have done this horrible unspeakable thing, but i don't think of myself as bad. Maybe i should.

I have a few thoughts about this. I am not saying this to shame you, because I do feel like shame, low self worth, etc, all lead to why we look to be validated by others. And, the more shame and the lower the self worth the more we need of that and the bigger the hole we find ourselves trying to dig out of. I am pretty sure the largest majority of affairs outside of maybe personality disorders or other mental illness have a root cause of self worth and shame issues.

So, it's interesting that you don't see yourself as a bad person. I think that perhaps you have to look at your morals and integrity. I had to do this as well, so this is not a slam. A poster once suggested to me that I had an affair because it was not against my morals to do so. It's an interesting thought, and when I weighed that, I don't think that's really true. I think it was against my morals and beliefs. So, that brought me to the thinking of why did I lower them? I had been an exemplary wife for decades. I had been a doting mother. I had always achieved a lot at work. Thinking of this bad person thing, well that just wasn't possible to me.

And at the end of the day, none of us is all bad or all good. But, at the time we are needlessly hurting and lying to others - if this was someone doing that to your sister or mother, would you not color them differently? How about your daughter? So, I will not insist you to think of yourself as a bad person, but you have to think about what your own integrity means to you, what your moral compass says about it. And, why were you willing to do it?

And, why can't you see that someone willing to do it with you did not have your best interests at heart. She was there for you to give her that same validation that you are seeking. She used you for that and left. She helped you hurt your wife and the mother of your children. Putting your children's security and happiness and chance at a whole home at risk.

I think it's important for you to look at the stories you are still telling yourself to feel better about your actions. You are still excusing yourself because what you want and how you feel is more important than upholding that integrity and moral code. By ruminating on the things that are true about the affair rather than just craving the high feelings that it gives you, this is your way back.

I think the prospect of building a new home together could be a very lovely and symbolic thing. But, don't start this process now. Instead, rebuild yourself, and if you are still given the chance then rebuild your marriage, and when that is done then maybe consider building a new home and a new dream together. But, right now your situation is not stable, and you are still looking for band aids.

There is no band aid. You talk about looking towards the next best thing to happen....Well I can tell you as a middle aged person who suffered from some of those thoughts myself...happiness doesn't just happen when you do x, y, z. Joy is something you have in your heart regardless of your circumstances. Pema Chadron has some wonderful thoughts that might help you connect with the truths about joy. Happiness is not in the future or in the past, it's today. Today is all we have. Part of your problem is living in either the past or future. Your life is right in front of you. Be mindful of it.

One thing that helped bring me joy (other than running, I get a lot of mental stability from that and I believe it cures cycles of depression that I used to find myself in) is to have a gratitude practice. Every morning I wrote down and really reflected on 3 things I was genuinely grateful for. I would really connect with the happiness, simplicity of that. What I found was after about a month of this, I had actually started to notice all those things a lot more. They began to give me these little sparks of joy throughout the day. And some of the things I appreciated were about my husband and family. It reminded me how much I wanted to give back to him.

And, at the end of all that, what I learned is the greatest way to experience love is to give it. Concentrate on your actions and the genuine giving in your heart that you want to give to your wife. You don't really experience love by being loved. You experience it in giving it. That's also where a big well of joy can be found.

Thanks JBWD

KNOWING yourself, yes.

That sums it up much better than my advice about hobbies and stuff. It is knowing and loving yourself too after dealing with the shame brought on by being guilty of what you did.

I haven't reached this point yet, but i certainly don't recognise the person i have become over the past 18 months.

It isn't just who you became. It is who you have been. You wouldn't be a cheater if you weren't unhappy with yourself long before it.

I don't think of myself as a bad person, yes i have done this horrible unspeakable thing, but i don't think of myself as bad. Maybe i should.

I think this depends upon where you find truth. For me, this was how it worked. This was my path. It didn't allow for any type of blameshifting of "I am not so bad because I did x,y,z in life too" Why? Because none of that mattered in the face of the one huge bad choice I made to hurt that person. If the person I hurt thought differently. Great. They (my wife) had grace to give. I refused to limit myself by even bringing the good into the equation. All that mattered to me was the bad and then the good I could do when I owned it. I just wasn't afraid of the label "bad" anymore. I built a false life on focusing on being that "good" guy no matter what I did to get there. I wanted to rip that all apart. I was guilty of doing things and I needed to feel that shame and own it. I wanted to build from honor and integrity. So I had a conscience and good have good moral and ethical values based on being a good person.

Our life up until this point has always been whats next...get married, buy a flat, buy a house, have our first kid, buy a bigger house, have the second kid

You skipped over the most important step before all that. Finding yourself. Finding autonomy.