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Never could grasp the concept of HB. Let me see: you betrayed me, exposed me to STD, gaslit me, and now I am supposed to feel comfortable being vulnerable enough for physical intimacy?

Hasn't the WS had more than her fair share of that outside the marriage already?

you do not have to accept HB.

you do not have to need and or want HB.

you are not alone for not every marriage after D day has HB.

choosing to not HB is ok when one does not want to.

though that does not diminish HB's healing effects.

to those marriages that avail themselves of HB that is a

marriage that is simply using a tool to help them get past

D day.

Yeah, I accept its existence. Just would definitely not be for me.

That's why it's called "hysterical."

Oldtruck

I wasn't even talking about HYSTERICAL bonding.

Listen it's not my fault that you have to pretend I was because you don't have a valid point otherwise.

But I didn't say BS were wrong for wanting HB.

I didn't even SPECIFY HB.

I said BS are WRONG accused of 'withholding' sex from abusive WS who don't deserve sex are physically and emotionally UNSAFE to be having sex with.

Read properly before you lecture me. Like you would in the WS. Have the equal amount of respect. I ALREADY said I'm not interested in your BS shaming and lecturing so confused as to why I'm forced to hear your judgement when there are WS in the WS forum who don't even have to tolerate being told they didn't mind giving their spouse an std.

But then again, you clearly think that's a little insignificant thing because all you've done is harp on about HB when that's NOT the point.

And no oldtruck it's YOU

That's shaming. You're shaming the BS for not being perfect saints and pretending they're not married to abusive selfish monsters, so they're therefore forced to have sex with them.

Cheaters deserve to feel shame because their actions are SHAMEFUL.

But don't blame BS because you equate not BEING ABLE TO or not WANTING to have sex with these individuals as CAUSING shame.

The WS caused the shame. They can deal with it, they don't have much to deal eith besides not cheating and lying anyway.

And AGAIN, they CAUSED the lack of sex, so it's THEM withholding.

Lecture THEM

choosing to not HB is ok when one does not want to.

CONTRADICTING yourself there.

When I said it's fine for a BS to not want sex you called it 'punishing'.

You didn't call the WS withholding punishing.

You didn't call the std tests and diagnoses they happily give their BS punishing.

You called the BS who are struggling to survive or find any happiness in the lives WS shattered, the ones who are 'punishing'.

But in your obsession with making it about HB when it NEVER WAS, you've changed your tune. Apparently it's ok now - thanks for the permission, what would we BS do without your approval of us choosing who we want to sleep with. Cause a few posts ago you were saying we're wrong for not wanting a cheater and that we shouldn't be surprised that said cheater whats sex. Nah you don't say.

They're allowed to want sex and give stds but how dare the BS not want sex and to receive stds.

I suppose you said this because you think it's fine if the WS doesn't want HB but it's 'punishing' if the BS doesn't.

Seems to be your MO.

ChamomileTea

I didn't say anything about BS being abused turning into abusers.

The fact that I said BS aren't required to have sex with abusive cheaters, and that is somehow being construed as abuse, is ludicrous, and proves my point.

Not being able to or not wanting sex with a ws has nothing, 0 NOTHING to do with being abusive.

So no, the only abusers in this scenario are still the WS, who ARE withholding safe sex.

HFSSC i don't appreciate my thoughts and opinions being labelled as 'vomiting'.

My post can be just a post and not a vent, nor asking for advice or trying to solve a problem, all at the same time.

The only problems are the ones I pointed out, and they aren't going to be solved by being misunderstood and further gaslighting BS which is the main problem.

I didn't say anything about HB yet I have to answer about it because he's assuming that's the point or has anything to do with this.

No. I'm talking about abuse.

The ws withholding safe sex. And the BS being blamed for not wanting or being able to engage in, unsafe sex.

Which is basically all sex with a ws.

Unsafe.

There is no advice I need to tell me otherwise, because what I'm saying is as true and simple as 1+1=2.

Baffling how he can claim that withholding sex is punishment referring to BS, and that's fine.

But I can't point out that it's the WS doing that and punishing, continuing to punish the BS sexually, actually. And that's considered vomit. Me defending my point, and the vulnerable BS being lectured to have sex harmful cheaters with potential stds, is considered vomit.

Laughable.

Not to worry, used to the doubke standards of SI on BS.

ChamomileTea

I didn't say anything about BS being abused turning into abusers.

The fact that I said BS aren't required to have sex with abusive cheaters, and that is somehow being construed as abuse, is ludicrous, and proves my point.

Not being able to or not wanting sex with a ws has nothing, 0 NOTHING to do with being abusive.

So no, the only abusers in this scenario are still the WS, who ARE withholding safe sex.

I think if you go back and read my response again, I was talking about my own situation and my own feelings about dealing with a WS. Not once did I ever scream at my WS or call him foul names, because you know what?.. he IS a person. And I'm an adult who feels shame when I behave in ways which don't compliment my dignity. When I agreed to try for R, I committed to being genuine and honest in that endeavor with an eye to complete restoration of the marriage. And while I would agree that a WS begins R in the one-down position, the goal has to be a return to equal partnership at some point in order for R to be meaningful.

Frankly, I don't care if you refuse sex with your WH or not. I don't care if your R works out or not. You've got a big nerve coming in here and screeching like a banshee at people who were just trying to help you anyway.

Peace out.

I can remember being very angry at the world, Onebiglie. When I look back on that angry time, I realize that it was definitely part of the process. So rage away. Call me whatever names you want.

But I also look back and realize I was extremely angry at being forced to save myself, to go against the relationship and person I didn't want to lose, to go it alone. I was furious that I HAD TO do it to save myself. When I finally did it, finally stood up for myself with my WH, told him No about sex, stopped valuing keeping the R over my own dignity, stopped giving a shit if he was happy with me or still in love with me or not, stopped caring if he was cheating or leaving me, stopped crying because he didn't want to talk about it, stopped even trying to talk about it--my anger went away. When he pouted, I walked away. When he gave me the silent treatment, I gave it right back. I just stopped caring where his thinking was at and focused only on me. Then I didn't blame the world anymore for ruining my life. Because I was fixing it. Just sharing these stupid and irrelevant thoughts, whether you can relate or not.

Go ahead. Blame us all, blame our wording or misguided support. I wish raging against us changed anything in your life, but it doesn't. Not one thing. I wish you peace.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:52 AM, November 23rd (Monday)]

Put another way, if you have a "model" WS who really works to help you heal, I think that most people will succeed in R. If you have an un-repentant spouse, I think that very few people will be able to succeed. No, they can't "force you to heal", but they can change the odds a ton.

RIO - I used to think that way. I don't any more. I think if anything rang truer to me these days, nothing more does than the WS heals WS, BS heals BS, and together they heal the relationship.

I do think the WS has to work on themselves, and carry the heavy lifting with the relationship. But, there are lots of examples I can think of from the WS forum where the BS was abusive their entire marriage and in the end, there is nothing they can do to heal a relationship with a toxic person.

In my own situation, I did what I could. He couldn't cope. That part is on me for giving him something so big he couldn't cope with it. How he coped is on him. But, all the efforts in the world doesn't put the BS in a different place, unfortunately, and unfairly they have to find some of their own path. Affairs blow up everything as I know you painfully know. And, sometimes the BS has to look at some of their own patterns and their own past traumas in order to heal. I also am a firm believer that a BS can heal whether they stay or leave, and that tells you that they can heal regardless of the WS. The relationship may never heal, but it does in fact take two people do do that.

Thumos is always saying he has contempt for the idea that a "BS can't get over it". There is no reason to see that as a flaw or a weakness. That is a strength just as much as a BS who R's has a strength. We just all have different personalities, perceptions, and beliefs. There is no "Right" answer.

But, I have always believed in sissoons mantra. And since seeing how much all I did afterwards could not necessarily change the outcome, I believe it even more now. That's not to say that I don't think the WS has a big whopping amount of work to do, and that they have to do a lot of the heavy lifting for their to be a chance, it just means we can't do everything from all angles.

Every Single Word (((Onebiglie))) you nailed in this entire post what has been haunting me in my M forever now. My XWS never made me feel safe Pre-A and Post-A and I was told over and over again wah wah wah how he didn't get enough sex.

I am so fucking elated that I don't have to have sex with him EVER again. He is repulsive in his addiction to sex and repulsive from his A's. He is repulsive because he has no empathy and expects sex on demand because... it is a need

See, this is what I'm talking about. Why is it ASSUMED that you as a bs SHOULD control your feelings when you literally couldn't control your feelings.

I wanted to explain that I was not actually saying that a BS SHOULD control their feelings, but that some… Or maybe I should just say “my“ WS was not strong enough to take what I was dishing out.

Doesn’t mean I was wrong…just means IMHO, that another approach (if I was able) might have gotten a better result for the marriage.

It’s not hard for me to imagine that some WS will be weak with regards to being challenged and confronted with their behaviors.

He deserved every verbal thrashing I gave him. But if I had to do it over, knowing what I know now, I would’ve come at it from a different tact and I think we might could’ve gotten through the healing process.

Again… Sure, not “fair“. But I would have been willing to trade some of my rage to have some sort of a marriage at this point.

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 9:34 PM, November 23rd (Monday)]

I wasn't even talking about HYSTERICAL bonding.

Listen it's not my fault that you have to pretend I was because you don't have a valid point otherwise.

never said you were for, against, or did HB.

you are pretending.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 5:18 AM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

That's shaming.

It is shaming to encourage people to solve problems by

communicating.

You have a distorted view of shaming.

I never said a WS or BS was wrong to not want sex because

D day has left their head messed up.

I did say to deny sex as punishment is wrong. Not being ready

and refusing to do so as punishment are not the same thing.

I am pro communicating to work through the not having sex

issues for sex is healthy, needed, helps repair and reconnect

the broken bond between the spouses.

Refusing to work through the sex drive issue wrong. Rome

was not built in a day, Though refusing to work on resetting

the first corner stone is wrong.

HFSSC i don't appreciate my thoughts and opinions being labelled as 'vomiting'.

it is unrealistic to expect people to always agree with

you

My post can be just a post and not a vent, nor asking for advice or trying to solve a problem, all at the same time.

vent or not, people will not be required to agree with

have learned.

The only problems are the ones I pointed out, and they aren't going to be solved by being misunderstood and further gaslighting BS which is the main problem.

After over two decades reading in infidelity

called GASLIGHTERS.

I didn't say anything about HB yet I have to answer about it because he's assuming that's the point or has anything to do with this.

sex is every thing. the No politics defense does

to ask you are those BS being wrong to do so.

No. I'm talking about abuse.

The ws withholding safe sex. And the BS being blamed for not wanting or being able to engage in, unsafe sex.

No one on this post said that it would be wrong to wait for STD tests to be done before resuming sex after

D day.

Which is basically all sex with a ws.

Unsafe.

There is no advice I need to tell me otherwise, because what I'm saying is as true and simple as 1+1=2.

Baffling how he can claim that withholding sex is punishment referring to BS, and that's fine.

But I can't point out that it's the WS doing that and punishing, continuing to punish the BS sexually, actually. And that's considered vomit. Me defending my point, and the vulnerable BS being lectured to have sex harmful cheaters with potential stds, is considered vomit.

Laughable.

Not to worry, used to the doubke standards of SI on BS.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:54 AM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

I wanted to explain that I was not actually saying that a BS SHOULD control their feelings, but that some… Or maybe I should just say “my“ WS was not strong enough to take what I was dishing out.

Doesn’t mean I was wrong…just means IMHO, that another approach (if I was able) might have gotten a better result for the marriage.

It’s not hard for me to imagine that some WS will be weak with regards to being challenged and confronted with their behaviors.

He deserved every verbal thrashing I gave him. But if I had to do it over, knowing what I know now, I would’ve come at it from a different tact and I think we might could’ve gotten through the healing process.

Again… Sure, not “fair“. But I would have been willing to trade some of my rage to have some sort of a marriage at this point.

Phrase: willing to be dead right to prove a point. to show that

one was in the right.

Is it worth it to take a stand and die to prove you were right.

Or to be smart and not give up your life for some

thing.

Whatsright, you illustrated my meaning. Beating up a WS

continuous does nothing to promote recovery.

Communicating, throwing the WS a bone helps the WS meet

the BS some where in the middle.

The stick without the carrot only works for a short term.

Better results are when the stick and the carrot are both used

from the beginning.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 5:53 AM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

There is a lot of awesomeness in this post.

I’d also like to comment on this.

Never could grasp the concept of HB. Let me see: you betrayed me, exposed me to STD, gaslit me, and now I am supposed to feel comfortable being vulnerable enough for physical intimacy?

It is not a rational or logical thing. It is certainly not something I could have imagined I would do after DDay or felt like I was supposed to do. It is a Compulsive Therapeutic Mindfuck, not sure how it was all of those things at the same time but it was. The best explanation I’ve been able to give myself is that I wanted all the time, attention, affection and sex that he gave to someone else back at an astronomically high interest rate.

[This message edited by UnstuffedGiraffe at 8:44 PM, November 24th (Tuesday)]

A couple of days after DDay my WW, hoping to keep me from leaving her, offered me sex. I suddenly had an overwhelming, almost blood-boiling desire to grab her, throw her on the bed and lay into a hate-f*ck with her. I had visions of pounding her mercilessly, choking her and tearing her up and leaving her bruised and bloody on the bed. I literally ran into the bathroom and threw up violently, and then I left for the night. I was having a panic attack. The anger and hysterical lust I had for her brought out some kind of Cro-Magnon sh*t in me. Man, I never want to feel that way again. I had the HB desire in total 6th gear overdrive and it messed me up.

What do they call it? Crimes of passion?

[This message edited by Westway at 4:31 PM, November 25th (Wednesday)]

sex is every thing. the No politics defense does

not work. You ignore or cannot understand that HB

was mentioned because you said a BS should not have

sex after D day. The mention of HB was done to

illustrate that there are BS having sex right after D day

to ask you are those BS being wrong to do so.

No oldtruck, you can't understand or admit that I have a valid point including and excluding HB. I didn't say BS are wrong for wanting it.

I'm talking about not wanting it, those are 2 different things. So you can stop harping on about HB now and get onto the point. Which is that you label BS as punishing the WS but not the other way around. Yet only one of those groups punishes the other with STDs and truggers during sex. But yeah it's necessary for the BS to put themselves through that so the WS can continue to give them stds