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So..the BS has to coddle the freshly caught, unremorseful WS, in order to get the truth??

The newly traumatized BS has to act as if every word isn't ripping them to shreds, because the poor WS won't be able to handle it??

And..if they lie,or shut down..because a BS shows emotion..it basically is telling the BS it's their fault for having a normal response.

I have felt the exact same feelings more times than I care to remember. And rightfully so. But, in my situation, I can tell you that my FWH was NOT able to handle it. I had very volatile reactions for quite some time, and it absolutely shut him down. I’m not saying he gets a “pass”, but the end result was that he shut down. And after 14 years he has never been able to interact with me regarding his infidelity. I now wish that I could have reacted/responded to his infidelity in a less explosive way. Not because he didn’t deserve some explosions, but because in the end, what I wanted was a better marriage.

Even pre-infidelity, I had to explain that my SAXH had it all wrong. I wasn't withholding sex from him. I wanted sex, but only with a safe, loving partner, something he refused to be. He was withholding sex from himself by continuing to act out

.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^ EXACTLY!

I totally LOVE sex. But not when compassion, and respect, and connection have been thrown out by the person who’s wanting to “get over on me“. ’m not playing that. But I have been accused of “withholding sex“ more times than I care to say.

To me, it’s a matter of self respect. One aspect of self respect I intend to hold on to.

Sure it punishes me too, but there is more than one way to skin a cat!

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 11:01 AM, November 19th (Thursday)]

I think it can be more difficult for a BS to have a "roadmap" than a WS.

An alcoholic can join AA. A cheater can stop cheating.

A BS can get out of infidelity by ending the marriage. But the BS is giving up something too. Assuming they want a partner, even after D the BS has to decide if they want to trust someone new, how that will all work out.

The WS lives in a concrete world, a fair world. The BS has their world turned upside down. BS are not allowed to cheat, even a RA. So all they can do is wait for the next affair, if it comes, by the WS or a new partner. Doesn't seem fair.

Thank You for posting this!

Yes, Exactly, Everything

I'm gonna disagree w/Sisoon on what we read (or maybe what we "hear", which includes our own interpretations) on SI (correction: what I hear or read on SI - whoops!)

Every single thing that the OP mentions is something I've felt. And most of it came from SI (tho I must admit that it can be muddied between SI and other reading. Hell, Glass' book goes into the whole thing Hellfire mentions -and I posted about it on SI very early on - something like the BS is supposed to act like a detached journalist when hearing about their WS balling someone else, which struck me as an absurd mountain I would not be able to climb at that time).

And TBH, I "hear" that stuff mostly from SIers who have Rd or committed themselves to R with a remorseful WS who is equally committed AND actually doing the damn work (vs the "apologies w/o action" form of manipulation many BS - including myself - contend with post dday).

AND - the funny thing is that I often agree with the sentiment or advice, but the "twist" for me is that I have to shift my thinking to the ways in which the 'words of wisdom' will help ME and only ME, wholly irrespective of anything to do with my WH (who has not, as Brene Brown would say, earned the right to my vulnerability)

I recently got grumpy on another thread when it seemed to me that the perspectives of those who have Rd (or committed to it) and those who had not were at cross purposes. And I think what irked me was that it was not a thread in the R forum, but in General. My point is that for a BS dealing with a WS who "wants" to get it and do the work but just can't (or won't) is - at least for me - a different animal. Just as I suspect posts in the reconciliation forum from those not "in R" may not be very helpful (and I try pretty hard to give that "disclosure" when I post in the R forum, so the reader is aware I am writing from a different lens).

Now, I'm NOT saying that the forums should be further segregated - I appreciate the "open" nature of SI and the protections various forums provide. Someone who has Rd can still be a wealth of advice and guidance to someone who has not made that commitment (and vice versa). There are MANY posters here on SI who have Rd and also helped me tremendously, esp in year 1 (TushNurse is the 1st to come to mind, but she is most definitely not alone on that list.... HO is one from the WS side, but I suspect most SIers are now aware that her R is now in flux for some pretty fucked up reasons). I am saying that there have been times when the learning or lessons or healing for someone with a remorseful WS are different than for a BS whose WS has not dug into the monumental pile of work they need to do to become a safe partner (which is merely a prerequisite for attempting R - still no guarantees). That those with the latter form of WS, esp when still mired in trauma response, may hear or interpret the advice or experiences of others in a way that may not be so helpful.

But back to the OP....

Again, I agree with and have felt EVERYTHING you describe here.

I've been able to get through (or past or let go or whatever) SOME of those feelings by realizing & accepting that as fucked up and unfair and unjust it all was, some of those (albeit at times seemingly absurd) suggestions would ultimately help ME. For example, trying to listen to WH's "perspective" in a more detached or clinical way helped ME hear what he was saying in a way that I could then process it. In most cases, it still came up as bullshit. The difference was that it was my head and analytical process that put it in the bullshit category, not my unmitigated rage (which was quite an issue, esp in year 1).

I read the OP as outlining the ways in which a BS can be retraumatized by some of the messaging that they hear, not just from SI (and not "just" from those in R), but also from the books and (unfortunately, a TON of therapists, and basic cultural norms that blame the BS. And while there's a plethora of posts about how the BH or the BW have it "worse" than the other, it' doesn't fucking matter. EVERY BS - male & female - is almost universally "blamed" by those who haven't personally experienced it. EVERY BS is told the same kind of crap that the OP lists. I got it from both family and friends - strong, smart, caring, people who love the heck out of me, but had no effing clue what relational betrayal trauma is (suffice to say every person who knows about my WH's As has now been well educated on the subject )

Hugs to you OneBigLie.... I hear you.

Thank you all, for listening and sharing, I'm glad we can all see hypocrisy for what it is.

Especially to KHBeo, thank you for sharing. You've been heard and you can do way better than your selfish ex. There are so many good women out there who would appreciate a faithful man. Please don't be discouraged when self righteous WS and BS tell you it's unacceptable to feel what you rightly feel.

Sisoon, my thoughts, opinions and feelings deserve more respect than being calling a 'vent'. They are the absolute truth. Just because I'm not pretending everything is perfect or that I'm a saint or lecturing vulnerable and depressed people on how to coddle their abuser like other SIers do, doesn't mean my opinions = a vent. That suggests that it's some kind of outburst rather than the valid and proven, and most importantly shared, opinions that they are.

So no I'm not going to read the rest of your reply because all it does is further prove that BS are not allowed to have feelings like WS are,

Even when they're telling it EXACTLY how it is. Sorry if you're of the opinion that BS should just accept being cheated out of feelings in addition to being cheated out of a happy life and marriage.

Or wait, they're allowed to have feelings but they have to be positive ones right? Because BS are supposed to magically be positive all the time right?

Because to tell their truth about the fact that someone actually took away their reasons to be happy goes against the ridiculous belief that we choose to suffer and make ourselves happy with an abuser next to us.

Sorry, not going for that. Especially as a woman who can't as easily just find another spouse later in life and even father children late in life without society looking twice. We get it, your WW lucked out with a faithful man who still thinks the world of her. Stop telling the rest of us who aren't so lucky, how to feel.

We deserved fidelity. We didn't get it. So now let us have our opinions and feelings, at least.

WhatsRight

See, this is what I'm talking about. Why is it ASSUMED that you as a bs SHOULD control your feelings when you literally couldn't control your feelings.

What do BS get told to do with their feelings. Go to therapy, read blah blah blah.

So WHY ON EARTH is your WH not TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for his childish avoidance?

Why is it that you should have reacted differently, as in been calmer so he wouldn't shut down

But now, 'he's not able to interact'

Really, sounds like he doesn't WANT to. Why does he go to therapy or read books and all that. He was 'able' to cheat on you.

He thinks, like all the WS and BS who blame BS do,

Thar you were 'able' to be calm about his abuse as you were finding out your life was a lie.

But he's not 'able' to talk about it??? Lies. He can't be bothered. AND he wasn't blindsided by you finding out. He could have planned in advance what he was gon a say.

And what about now? It's been years and he STILL hasn't got help, to help you? But he loves you?

And this ladies and gents is why unremorseful WS don't deserve sex, let alone R.

They are complete hypocrites who want you to accept abuse but require perfection from you.

Lack of remorse is not just a cheater who continues to lie or one that blames you-

It's the 'i deserve sex and all the things you're asking me for, even though i cheated on you and you were happily giving me all thoset things before anyway'.

Real remorse wouldn't be so entitled.

Well done for not caving, he needs to change his behaviour if he wants sex with his faithful wife that he doesn't even deserve.

Thank you to the person/people who mentioned 'punishing'.

I'm not sure if I used that word, but it is exactly the right one.

WS claim they don't 'deserve' to be punished (they actually do, just like they deserve to be divorced and cheated on in return-just because the BS doesn't do those things because it's not good for them, it doesn't mean the WS doesn't deserve it),

They claim they don't deserve to be punished forever but yet...

...they are LITERALLY PUNISHING the BS everyday.

Are they for real??

What is their behaviour.

STD checks? Triggers, manipulation, depression, having to take medication, loss of money stolen from the family and given to the ap, time stolen??

That's not punishment? REALLY?

But poor WH, they keeo their family, kids, marriage. The FEW consequences they have are ALL of their own making.

The BS is DUMPED with this LIFELONG pain (unless I'm supposed to be conned into thinking that it one day doesn't hurt that your spouse didn't mind giving you an std), without asking for it. They can't divorce without turning their lives upside down and losing time with their kids or money or the lives they worked and sacrificed for,

But... it's the WS that's being 'punished'??

They accuse BS of withholding sex. They're withholding sex. They accuse the BS of punishing, they're the ones who are punishing.

And what's worse, long after forgiveness and R begins, their actions are STILL punishing the BS. For life.

So basically, they think they're better than you. Because the BS deserves the punishment, but the WS does not.

If it were otherwise, and they were ACTUALLY remorseful, they wouldn't be so bloody ENTITLED. And would instead ACTIVELY try to lessen that punishment. Instead of whining and claiming they 'can't' heal their BS. While going back to enjoying their lives sleeping peacefully with a faithful spouse.

What kind of individual who claims to love their spouse puts more energy into complaining that they're somehow being punished, than they do about trying to heal their spouse?

If they were reasonable individuals they would see they're not the ones being treated unfairly, but they don't. They actually think they're victims.

And other WS and BS agree. They go on and on about what the WS 'deserves'. They don't deserve it. Tell them their BS deserves more empathy since they're doing their best after being shat on, since you want to bang on about 'deserving'.

Why is it ok for the Ws to say 'i don't want to have a diminished life even though i damaged my spouse's life and my marriage' but a BS cannot say 'my life has been diminished'

So for example, not receiving oral sex as a WS who previously gave their spouse aps germs. That's some kind of 'hardship'. They 'deserve' oral.

But... the BS doesn't deserve to be spared this act. They don't deserve to struggle with it without being told they are doing so by choice?

Being reminded that you cheated (because you're acting like you didn't or that you care about the person when your actions show otherwise) is a 'punishment', but a BS saying that life reminds them everyday,

that's okay to live with? Why? Why can't the WS live with it too? Why do BS have to refrain from even telling the WS that they had reminders?

Why does the BS have to bear that but the fragile WS deserves to be happy and care free without having to support their spouse through that.

As if the cheaters would do the same in reverse.

If the BS can deal with the triggers alone supposedly, why can't the WS deal with them alongside the BS.

Why is the BS required to do something the WS isn't. Surely they can handle hearing that they cheated. They did it after all?

what I wanted was a better marriage

Whatsright, you did everything you could to make this happen including offering forgiveness, he hasn't even done the bare minimum of being remorseful enough to talk to you about the affair he boldly had. Now he can't even articulate the things he did. He doesn't want to improve the marriage with you, he wants you to do it all by yourself. Cause he 'deserves' it. But you don't deserve fidelity or remorse evidently.

I wonder if the other BS that I'm referring to even realise how harmful their 'advice' is? You're actively encouraging vulnerable people to put the sleeves second to abusive individual who already out them second if not lower. (Certainly didn't care if their spouses caught HIV and died, nice folks hey).

You shoukd be ashamed if you've convinced a BS that they aren't entitled to their feelings even though they've sacrificed everything already. You should have been empowering them to demand respect and the love that you are lecturing them to give. Instead, you're telling them to accept less because that's the 'only' option they have, but to give more just because you think WS deserve it. And what's worse is that you want them to be happy about it.

And convince them that there's something wrong with feeling cheated out of a good life. So it's not enough that they have to have a diminished life, but they have to be happy about it too. Take responsibility for the sadness while giving happiness to the undeserving spouse, who somehow can't provide healing or happiness? I guess it doesn't go both ways...?

Bacially, you want them to be perfectly controlled saints. And you shamed them for being otherwise. While telling them they're failing in their requirement of perfection and treating their WH like saints, because the WS is a human being??

I'd expect it from WS, but other BS... sad. Just sad. Just because you allowed yourself to feel second to your abusive cheater and unentitled to feelings, doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

See, it's not very nice when people make assumptions. Youn BS who blame BS assume they are allowing themselves to feel unhappy to resentful. Well I've decided that you do that because your WS or yourself or some therapist convinced you that you chose suffering, and you allowed them to. So now you pass on that judgement to other BS.

But no, we don't choose suffering. It's given to us via triggers and reminders, right before cooking our WS' food, after giving them sex, after being given less effort than he gave a random ow. But oh well never mind, cause we 'shouldn't compare' even though if he actually loved us like he claimed to he would WANT to treat his wife better than a random ow.

But we can't say that cause poor WS deserve happiness so shhhhhh BS. Get over it. Doesn't matter that life (as in the remnants of the WS abusive cheating) and the WS now in their entitlement, keeps punishing you. You must be choosing it.

I always thought the advice to hold back on showing feelings was in order to get a proven liar, the cheater, to , possibly not claim up. The thought was to give the cheater at least the illusion of some safety, thus making it more likely he or she would crack and talk/disclose.

I did not get the impression was tonstifle feelings out of concern for the cheater's welfare or feelings.

Again, I thought it was just practical advise designed to lull the cheater into some sense of security such that one might get some much needed info out of the miscreant. Cops do this a lot.

Clam up. Hate this autocorrect.

Once you get the disclosure, have at it. Tear the cheater a new asshole.

Wow Bigonelie, you nail it, you nail the tone and the words.

You see once I got a divorce my POSXW started to talk bad of me, she told her friends that I was very mean with her, that I didn't do house chores, that I was an abuser, that she didn't have privacy, that I was cold and retreat...

She somehow managed to gaslighting me and herself, she truly believes that her life without me is now better. She see herself now as a divorced woman that went through a lot.

And me? What about me?? She got me HPV wards, trauma, I have to sell my house, I had to get rid of my in-laws, go back to my parents... Etc

Man I hate that woman. She didn't deserved the opportunity to R.

Dont react when asking questions...write down their answers,concentrate on that,so it gives you something to do,so you won't necessarily react. If you respond in anger. They will shut down,and you won't get the answers you need. If you cry they might lie because its hurting you.

Now that you mention it...hmmm.

If you're in Q & A mode, your best bet is to figure out the best way to ask your questions of your WS in your specific sitch, and that often means use techniques like not reacting to answers.

But if the BS is considering R, there are times the BS needs to get feelings out into the open. If R is a possibility, there are times the BS needs to let the WS know what the BS feels.

If the WS can't take the BS's feelings, what good is the WS to the BS? If the BS has to stifle himself to make R work, R(econciliation) is not possible.

If the BS is considering R, it's a good idea to test the WS, and letting the WS know what the BS feels is a good test.

*****

Obl, WRT 'venting,' sometimes people post to release feelings. It's usually important to the poster. When that happens, the poster wants to be heard; they don't want or need advice.

If a poster labels their words as a vent, they get support for a vent. You didn't label your post, but it has some of a vent's hallmarks.

I didn't know what you wanted.

I urge you not to discount the importance of venting. For a lot of us, venting is part of healing.

And convince them that there's something wrong with feeling cheated out of a good life. So it's not enough that they have to have a diminished life, but they have to be happy about it too. Take responsibility for the sadness while giving happiness to the undeserving spouse, who somehow can't provide healing or happiness? I guess it doesn't go both ways...?

Yeah F All of That! I'm so happy I left I no longer feel I have to do anything at all to please my xWS. Hope he suffers honestly he took 24 years of my life and shat on it. It's all a lie. I don't owe him anything but a big F You!

I always thought the advice to hold back on showing feelings was in order to get a proven liar, the cheater, to , possibly not claim up. The thought was to give the cheater at least the illusion of some safety, thus making it more likely he or she would crack and talk/disclose.

I wasn't ever able to do this my fury was too much and I don't care if it caused him to retreat. My xWS did deserve every bit of anger, name calling, whatever... he deserved it. Nor would he have told me the truth anyways with his personality disordered brain.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 12:02 PM, November 20th (Friday)]

Onebiglie:

Thank you for this thread. I think you have nailed it. It has opened my eyes as well. I guess I was not cognizant that it was so prevalent on SI that other BS advise a new BS to stifle their emotions when dealing with their WS, and to coddle and cater to their WS. I do not agree with that advice. The WS must be willing to take all of the anger and pain of the BS. Nothing good can come from stifling your emotions. Take the advice that is useful to you and leave the rest. Good luck.

I have stayed away from your thread for many reasons. And, I will probably regret trying to respond. But this put me over the biting my tongue:

WS claim they don't 'deserve' to be punished (they actually do, just like they deserve to be divorced and cheated on in return-just because the BS doesn't do those things because it's not good for them, it doesn't mean the WS doesn't deserve it),

I think there is a difference between thinking about punishment versus natural consequences of ones actions.

Maybe the tipping point is taking accountability for ones actions. Understanding that they are owed nothing for staying, and understanding that they have changed the dynamics of the relationship. So, if your husband has not done that, I can appreciate where all this is coming from.

However, I am going to say that I do not believe I deserved to be cheated on. I can accept that as a natural consequence of my actions, my value as a wife was diminished. Therefore, I can understand how my husband did not feel like showing me value. But, to say anyone "deserves" to be cheated on, is to say the person does not truly believe cheating is wrong in all circumstances. There is still a loophole in the integrity that person then has.

Sure, all of us cheating parties took our own "loophole" of our own integrity. Many of us cheated at a time when we felt enough entitlement to bend that integrity. A person who cheats back, they did no different. Two wrongs will never make a right. I should have divorced him. Then, he should have divorced me. All this other cowardly traumatic bullshit should have never happened on either side, and one doesn't make the other right.

He will now have to take his own accountability if he wants to keep this marriage.

They claim they don't deserve to be punished forever but yet...

...they are LITERALLY PUNISHING the BS everyday.

I never said I didn't deserve the natural consequences of my own actions. I did my best to mend rather than to continue to torture my husband. I worked very hard on making amends in any way that I knew how for years.

I gave him a very generous divorce agreement that he could have cashed in at any time. At some point, he has to take responsibility for not taking his out.

If your husband is a remorseless bastard that can't understand that he changed the scope of your sex life through natural consequences of his own actions and makes you unfairly out to be a punisher instead...well I can see why that would piss you off. And if someone on this site said to you that you were just still punishing him, I would set them straight.

On my DDay I realized I had been sticking my knob into a human toilet. It was no problem refusing my WW and I made no excuses to her when she offered some pre-divorce goodbye sex... She even offered to get another girl in the mix if I wanted it.

I told her I'd rather step in front of a freight train.

Hiking, you need to understand that you are not most waywards. There is a reason most BS here respect you,and look to you for insight on their wayward's behavior. You are one of the very few who actually did the work, and "get it." Many might do the work,but they don't get it. Many don't do the work.

You can say that you did this and that. Because you actually did. But the waywards in OBL life,in my life,and I would venture to say in most of the BS's here, did not.

No one deserves to be cheated on. I agree with that. For those of us who have a WS who half assed the work, but we have chosen to stay, for a variety of reasons, we feel differently about our WS. For example, I don't think he deserves to be cheated on,but he doesn't get to have the marriage he wants,because I refuse to be give myself entirely to a man who hasn't given me what I need to feel safe. I love him,but I'm primarily staying because I need the insurance. I have a variety of illnesses,including trigeminal neuralgia. Guess how many insurance companies will take that on? Lol. Ive tried. I'm staying.

Anyway. You are different than most waywards here,and most of the ones we live with. All waywards are not the same. We see that here every day.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:05 PM, November 20th (Friday)]

Bacially, you want them to be perfectly controlled saints. And you shamed them for being otherwise. While telling them they're failing in their requirement of perfection and treating their WH like saints, because the WS is a human being??

I honestly haven't seen anyone do that. I do think there's room for some interpretation in the matter of timing though. Advice for recovering BS's who are well down the road in R would be different from that given to BS's who are just starting R, and of course, advice would also be different for those BS's who choose D. Time is fluid, not static, and we're all individual in our journey. There's no "one size fits all".

In terms of being "a saint"... I don't see that either. That said, I don't agree with allowing abuse to turn us into abusers. I'm an adult, and not a perfect one. But if I engage in behaviors which don't honor my age and wisdom, it's ME who suffers because then I feel bad about myself. So, while it's understandable that given the horrible abuse a BS suffers, that one might lose their cool momentarily, it's also not something that should be encouraged as a lifestyle choice. We hurt ourselves when we become something other than what we strive to be.

Long and short, I don't see anyone shaming BS's here. What I see is encouragement. The road to healing lies within.