SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Agree 100% ^^^

BSR nailed it exactly.

Clearly, I can only add my own betrayed spouse perspective, and through that, I think Rambler’s succinct observation cuts to the chase.

This thread was about you making a stand.

Sure, you’ve shown anger and sadness and understand how much his choices damaged the progress you had made before his A — but I do think your in the moment boundary to start this thread — was you standing up for you.

And it led to a conversation with your husband you needed to have.

That’s a good start.

I don’t see the co-dependency issue as much as others here. Co-dependency to me is about continuing to enable or ignore bad behavior to keep the relationship at all costs.

It seems to me, you’ve drawn a line in the sand KNOWING you need MORE from your husband to stay.

The complexity the MH situation makes any R tougher, but it sounds like there is some level of love and care to work with.

Two hurt people, who hurt the other, need to feel valued, need to earn trust and focus on the good in each person. I would imagine that double the damage needs double the effort.

I think that more things have been touched on, I need to think about them and evaluate them more.

I do want to say a few things, and I have hesitated in saying because it then further looks like I am defending him. I don't like being in that position, because I want to keep a balanced picture of the situation. But, like OIN says it's hard for anyone to understand the dynamic so I will try and explain it further.

First, while I did shut down sexually during the bj/ipad situation, he really didn't read into that at first. Stopping has been something that has happened at least weekly since my dday. We did go through a 3 or 4 week period where we just didn't do it at all (with zero complaints from him). He has really been good about that, but it's happened several times lately on an occasion when I initiated sex, and even at times when I initiated the porn use (though I did not initiate that part that night). So, not feeling as emotional about it as I did last week, I feel like he was more trying to understand what is happening but we were already on a bad footing at that point and it made it so much worse. His questioning made a bad situation way worse.

I do think I have given him mixed messages . The ipad in the face thing really wasn't on his radar because it's in all sorts of positions when we use it. I do think I have started to feel dehumanized over it, but it has been a normal part of our sex life for decades (not as frequent as these days) so I am not sure he would intuitively think that it's a problem. I have now realized it is and that is being respected by him. We decided full on no porn use to be initiated by either party indefinitely.

I talked with him, he was in full agreement that we need to look at what we can do to rebuild in the long term and removing obstacles like this is a no brainer and "an easy fix". I also think that we have gotten lazy in our sex life in recent months for more than just infidelity reasons. We opened another small business so I could quit my job (he is keeping his for the time being because he can work remotely), we are downsizing our house, getting it ready to sell, and we are preparing to leave for full time road tripping come fall. Bandwidth is just not always there. Porn use and laziness go hand in hand, but I need connection right now and it's blocking that.

I don't know that I see myself as a broken, weak person right now. I look back to the time before, during and after my affair and see that I was. I think BSR is right, I have maybe accepted too much responsibility in our marriage and maybe there were grudges there that were earned by him. This is definitely something I have been contemplating a lot lately.

I do think that I have a certain humility from being the WS for so long that probably is hard to relate to by non-madhatters how that sometimes tempers what others might feel outraged over. It's not that I think I deserve to be treated badly - I know that I do not and whether it sounds like it or not I will not accept it either. But, I do not think I am treated badly. I do not get on here and talk about the good stuff, because I don't really feel like celebrating those things all the time. I instead privately catalog them in the bigger picture.

It's more when things happen, I still look for my accountability in them. I do not know how not to, this is automatic now because I truly think that I did spend a lot of years not owning my part of a situation. Even if it was that I wasn't speaking up. I feel I have come a long way - I am not nearly as conflict avoidant as I once was. I didn't speak up in the moment, but it was a cognizant decision to put it away for the next day when it wasn't so late and we weren't all up in our feels about what just happened.

My IC really hasn't said anything about codependency. Upon discovery, I laid out what needed to happen, and those things have been happening. I do think that I am having a hard time coming to terms with my husband isn't who I thought he was, but seems like to me that part would be normal for anyone. I do think that I had him on a pedestal that needed to come down, but that might not be a construct that is something that can happen overnight. It's a dynamic that's been there since we got together.

As for the comment I made about not becoming as much as I would without him. I agree - I have good work ethic, I am intelligent, I am also intuitive and read people well. You don't grow up living the way I did without being able to take peoples temperature so you knew when to get out of the way. What I mean by it is far less sinister. Yes, he was older, and I learned life skills from him. But, he also taught me to not be so risk averse, he is the one who educates himself so we can make some of the moves we have. There are aspects to what he has created in my life that I will not lose appreciation for.

But, I also know I am a grown ass woman now. Whatever I do moving forward I do understand I can go get whatever it is I want, and I now have those capabilities on my own. But, I definitely have become more well rounded and far more than I would have been without having been with him this far. That's not a position of putting myself down, it's more of an understanding of us being a great team - the ying and yang. I would propose that most married people who have had mostly a good marriage got a lot of benefits that would not have been there otherwise, because two people bring different things to the table.

I know I am all over the place. I was in a very bad place last week. I lacked some self awareness this specific was becoming a problem for me, I didn't do anything to prevent it from being a problem, and really there wasn't a lot of indication to him that was the specific problem I was having in the midst of all that we are going through.

Should he have had some insight this would be an issue? Yes, he probably should have seen that coming and removed it without being asked. Does he lack empathy after his affair? Yes, I think he absolutely does. We watched porn after my affair, so I think he lacks the depths sometimes to understand things are hitting me differently. He does the things very well that he asked of me or that were triggers for him. For example, He took all the furniture out of the room they used one day while I was at work, without being asked. It was that way for a few weeks before I even realized he'd done it. I would have liked if he'd set fire to it, but we are trying to sell the place.

Someone asked if his whys were more surrounding the fact I had the affair first. I do not sense he is blaming that. Was it a contributing factor to his mental state? Yes, I am not sure how we can dismiss that was part of the devastation and overwhelming feelings that he had. But, that is not a reason to cheat. I did not deserve to be cheated on any more than he did. I had pretty much a nervous breakdown around the time of my affair, already had the diagnosis at the onset. I do not blame my affair on that, but it was a contributing factor in my mental state.

Anyway, I will read and think more about what is being said, and take it back to IC with me tomorrow. I do not discount that things are not where they should be. I do not discount that I still have work to do. I have said that even prior to finding out about the affair. I definitely do not discount he has work to do. I have said since the beginning there are some very specific things I need to see happen/improve in order for us to get to the other side. He knows what those things are, and they are a tall order for him. But, they are also things that are in his best interest to get a handle on as well.

Anyway, this has become a novel. And, as I suspected it came out as a dissertation of defending him. But, I do think that there is more context to these things that are hard for you all to weigh. But, I also see all of this insight and advice is for my better good as well, so please know even with all the explaining I just did, I am hearing what you all are saying too and some of it is hard to look at because I know it's true.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:11 AM, March 15th (Monday)]

I do want to say a few things, and I have hesitated in saying because it then further looks like I am defending him.

I am hearing what you all are saying too and some of it is hard to look at because I know it's true.

Are you actually hearing though, or are you placateing the forum and your wayward simultaneously because one of your core motivators is keeping the peace? What is your inner conflict right now? Which outcome do you fear the most?

What happens if your husband completely hardens against SI, and no longer supports your active status here? What happens if SI as a majority decides to fully reject your husband as a candidate for R? Where does either of those situations leave you? What would either mean for your sense of self worth? What value would you perceive yourself to have in either situation?

I ask not to offend, but to make sure you're putting yourself first. If you're going to truly heal from being betrayed: You gotta learn to love you some you. Seriously. Watch out for shame. I understand you are familiar with the shame of being a WS, but you need to identify BS shame before it sneaks up and consumes you. It comes from a different angle, it presents differently, but the way a BS feels it is very real. Recognize it, own it, and give yourself permission to tend to it in a way that is productive to healing.

As a WS you accepted that your actions were shameful. You owned that shame, and weaponized it into something cathartic towards your motivation to be better. You accepted that you should be ashamed of yourself for being wayward, and worked towards becoming someone who has no reason to feel shame. You were so close too!

Then bam! You had a d-day. Not only do you feel the shame of not knowing, but the shame of telling us all you were weak enough to be a victim. But worse, you told everyone while subconsciously fearing deep down everybody might think you deserved it. Regardless of how much reassuring you get that this isn't your fault.

(Hypothetical based on my own experience):

You're ashamed that you weren't smart enough to see through it, but just as ashamed that someone like you (a wayward) could have been stupid enough to believe you wouldn't be hurt the same ways you hurt others. But wait...now you fear standing up for yourself in the ways you know are healthiest would make you a hypocrite. Damn. More shame.

On a logical level it is easy to recite the difference between wrong and right, know what you should do, and take steps toward that execution. On a real, human, emotional level that's easier said than done. Please don't second guess, or sell yourself short. You are no longer of a wayward mindset. Don't open that door again by feeding yourself bullshit wayward excuses...ESPECIALLY those that could lead to resentment with your value at the core.

The ipad in the face thing really wasn't on his radar because it's in all sorts of positions when we use it. I do think I have started to feel dehumanized over it, but it has been a normal part of our sex life for decades (not as frequent as these days) so I am not sure he would intuitively think that it's a problem.

If you don't mind me asking, how many times has the iPad been in this specific position? Not all sorts, but this specific one?

It was dehumanizing. I fully believe he knows that, and that he knew that when he did it. I doubt there are many men on this site, or any site (including porn forums), who would view this specific act as humane in any way, and I highly doubt he (as his core self) was under any true delusion that this was okay. It would not surprise me if this was a subconsciously desperate attempt to restore the power balance which was so comfortable to him before your affair.

Remember that nagging feeling you had during your affair? The one that never settled despite your pathetic attempts at justifying what you knew in your soul was wrong? If he didn't feel that, then I'm afraid he has a long road of self-reflection before he can ever be a safe candidate for R. Don't forget that he has to get there on his own. You can't will him into being safe. You can't control the outcome of his self-work any more than you could control the outcome of your marriage in the wake of your own destruction. Him choosing not to fix himself will never make you a hypocrite for having standards now that you've done the work.

He may be great R material, or he may turn out to be the opposite. Neither outcome is a reflection on you. Please just don't forget the worth you worked so very hard to recognize.

Are you actually hearing though, or are you placateing the forum and your wayward simultaneously because one of your core motivators is keeping the peace?

I am hearing it. There was a lot of deep reflection in this thread, I don't think that if I disagree with someone it's not keeping the peace? People poured themselves out helping me here, it's not being ignored. I am simply thinking that I was upset when I first posted and I probably should give more of the view than I initially did.

Codependence is something I am not sure of, because I do speak up and have for years. There are no repercussions or immature behaviors when I do on his end. So, that's something I brought up in IC yesterday. The IC agrees she doesn't see that as the main concern. But, we both agree that I am having trouble with feeling anger, and seeing him in this new way. I have been open about both of these things in the forum.

The other stuff - needing to take more of a BS hat, that I probably need to go back and look at the pre A and adjust my assessment. That he needs to do the work, and he's not where I need him to be yet. I agree with all that. And, I believe that through this thread I realized that some of the dynamics of our marriage were skewed from the very beginning.

What is your inner conflict right now? Which outcome do you fear the most?

My inner conflict when I wrote this is I felt like giving up. This was a big set back for me, for us. There is a lot of empathy on things that were important to him post DDAY, things he can identify with. Things he can't, well lets say the learning curve is steep there.

What happens if your husband completely hardens against SI, and no longer supports your active status here?

He doesn't support my active status here. He would like me to leave the forum. He doesn't get to decide that. Had he asked me to do that before his affair I would have.

What happens if SI as a majority decides to fully reject your husband as a candidate for R?

That is not the forums decision, I find this question bizarre. When many people wanted to talk about his participation here in the wake of me finding out about his affair, I point blank said back off. I felt like whatever the forum was feeling over his betrayal of them I could not and would not address because mine was bigger. My marriage is much, much bigger (not even sufficient words) than this forum to me.

Where does either of those situations leave you? What would either mean for your sense of self worth? What value would you perceive yourself to have in either situation?

This forum doesn't have my self worth tied up in it. I enjoy talking here because I am a deep thinker, it's really hard to have these deep exploration questions in real life for me. I don't have a lot of people who know about the affair. The people in my support group I go to ends up more me supporting them, and there are other members I will never be close to because I am also a WS. Because I enjoy participating here and I get a lot out of it doesn't mean my self worth is wrapped around this.

I ask not to offend, but to make sure you're putting yourself first. If you're going to truly heal from being betrayed: You gotta learn to love you some you. Seriously. Watch out for shame. I understand you are familiar with the shame of being a WS, but you need to identify BS shame before it sneaks up and consumes you.

I have had some very good discussions here about that from the BS side so I can appreciate what you are saying. I do think that I had healed quite a lot of my WS stuff prior to finding out. But like you are saying, it's different.

As a WS you accepted that your actions were shameful. You owned that shame, and weaponized it into something cathartic towards your motivation to be better. You accepted that you should be ashamed of yourself for being wayward, and worked towards becoming someone who has no reason to feel shame. You were so close too!

Yes, I agree. There are always things there that I will need to practice moving forward because they go against the grain of who I know myself to be. But, I am proud of the work I did and the results. I have far better coping now than if this had happened in reverse and he had cheated first. I do love me, and I want what is best for me. Right now, I do believe that is still my husband and our marriage.

Then bam! You had a d-day. Not only do you feel the shame of not knowing, but the shame of telling us all you were weak enough to be a victim. But worse, you told everyone while subconsciously fearing deep down everybody might think you deserved it. Regardless of how much reassuring you get that this isn't your fault.

I don't feel like most of the people here feel I deserve it. But, I will say that you have not had the experience of being a ws on this site at certain times over the years. And, I think I have held a lot of empathy of the innocent BS's here who have not had an affair, not recognizing my lack of innocence when talking on this forum would feel inauthentic to me.

Also, it's hard to ignore that I do have almost 4 years of experience with infidelity, but as the WS. I think it's very much like Rambler said so succinctly - that the things that make me a good candidate for R as the WS makes for a BS who needs to get her shit together and make sure I am getting what I need.

(Hypothetical based on my own experience):

You're ashamed that you weren't smart enough to see through it, but just as ashamed that someone like you (a wayward) could have been stupid enough to believe you wouldn't be hurt the same ways you hurt others. But wait...now you fear standing up for yourself in the ways you know are healthiest would make you a hypocrite. Damn. More shame.

I didn't believe I wouldn't be hurt the same way or I was above that, too good for that, etc. I did believe in my husband and who I thought he was. Those two things may sound similiar, but I feel like I gained a lot of humility as the WS. I am not above being hurt by someone else which is the way your narrative reads. I have feared it, and have spent a lot of times in my life holding it in and hustling to be loveable. I AM past that. REALLY past that. My issue is not that I deserved it, not that I was above having it happening to me. My issue is really trying to figure out how to see him moving forward.

As the WS, my work was more active, more intense. I find that as a BS I do a lot of waiting, and shifting. I find my disappointments are bigger, smaller things that happen are bigger. I stay detached a lot. I keep dipping my toe into vulnerability and then finding things like the situation in this post to blow up.

On a logical level it is easy to recite the difference between wrong and right, know what you should do, and take steps toward that execution. On a real, human, emotional level that's easier said than done.

YES. Very much true. I know a lot logically, I talk here most of the time very logically. Almost to the point that I had people asking me about why I sounded so distanced from it. But you are right, getting emotions to line up with logic is very, very difficult.

If you don't mind me asking, how many times has the iPad been in this specific position? Not all sorts, but this specific one?

Since my DDAY this was the first time. So, I guess the first time in about 5 months. As far as before that - lots. He often hands it to me while he is "down there" too, but I usually prop it up somewhere nearby. I never really thought about it at all, it was consensual.

It was dehumanizing. I fully believe he knows that, and that he knew that when he did it.

I do not think so at all. When we talked about it he said it made sense what I was saying, but it felt like to me that it wasn't something he analyzed or thought about. I think given the history of our sex life, it's plausible.

I doubt there are many men on this site, or any site (including porn forums), who would view this specific act as humane in any way, and I highly doubt he (as his core self) was under any true delusion that this was okay. It would not surprise me if this was a subconsciously desperate attempt to restore the power balance which was so comfortable to him before your affair.

Could have been, but if so I do think after all our discussions over the weekend it would have been on a subconcious level.

Don't forget that he has to get there on his own. You can't will him into being safe.

Totally. I think I am doing a better job of that than you might think. I fully understand he needs to do this for him first and foremost, regardless of what happens to our marriage. I really got upset at this situation, and I am glad I brought it up to the forum because it was very illuminating to me. At the same time, I wrote what I wrote sounding defensive because we have had a chance to clear the air and to start again with new parameters.

You can't control the outcome of his self-work any more than you could control the outcome of your marriage in the wake of your own destruction. Him choosing not to fix himself will never make you a hypocrite for having standards now that you've done the work.

Yep. He has a lot to prove to me that he knows what he wants and that me and this marriage is part of that. I am watching his actions and I would probably classify it as sometimes 1 step forward and two steps back, but this stuff isn't linear. Facing ourselves is difficult, and then integrating what we learned is harder than that, and as you astutely pointed out getting our logic and our emotions to align is maybe the hardest.

I do not try and rescue him from the natural consequences of his actions. The reason is because I love him. I want what is best for him. What is best for him is to take this time and really do some work on himself.

He may be great R material, or he may turn out to be the opposite. Neither outcome is a reflection on you. Please just don't forget the worth you worked so very hard to recognize.

I appreciate that.

I would not try and R with him if I didn't think he was doing the best he can. I would give him A's in some things, C's in others, and this one was absolutely an F. But, it's his first F, and he is working to correct that. There are going to be bumps in the road, it took me 8 months to start to get my head out of my ass after a 2 month affair. I think what sometimes people see is I am realistic. At 5 months I was still pining, and still believed a great deal of my brainwashing. He has had an 18 month affair, this is not going to be undone quickly.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:50 AM, March 16th (Tuesday)]

He doesn't support my active status here. He would like me to leave the forum. He doesn't get to decide that. Had he asked me to do that before his affair I would have.

May I ask, is that as a WS as in he questioned if you were self-flagellating by being here or does he not support your being here as a BS? Has his view changed any since you became a BS?

I never really thought about it at all, it was consensual.

I think that this is the real heart of the issue. Did you not mind because you genuinely didn't care or because you felt pressured into not caring because of your WS status? I don't mean pressure from him - pressure from yourself to be the good and accommodating WW. One is consensual. One is not but looks consensual. Ask yourself, had you not cheated and he pulled a tablet out to watch porn on and block you with pre-DDays, would you be fine with it or would you have been upset? Your reaction to it now does suggest that maybe you were less okay with it than you thought but pushed that feeling away in order to preserve this:

spent a lot of times in my life holding it in and hustling to be loveable.

Or it could just be unacceptable and triggering to you now.

Just want you to know that this kind of behavior would be unacceptable to many BS or WS. Which doesn't mean everything because there are all sorts of weird sex things that most people find unacceptable and some people are fine with. It's up to you to decide if this was a welcome change or something not great that you accepted as a consequence of your A.

May I ask, is that as a WS as in he questioned if you were self-flagellating by being here or does he not support your being here as a BS? Has his view changed any since you became a BS?

It's been off and on. If you remember, he joined here because he felt I was being bullied by someone. It was strong enough reason to him to blow his cover he's been reading. He did not like that situation because he did feel I self flagellated on top of it. What I could not make him understand that the person in question might have been hateful to me but it was their own pain that was behind it. I actually didn't take it personally.

So, that was the first time he wanted me to leave. I think he also felt I made a lot of progress here, genuinely. As his affair progressed, and I seemed better he backed off that assertion and said okay do what ever you want with it. He has my passwords to everything, and there wasn't an infidelity concern so he didn't push it.

Now that he's reengaged, he questions if this place is healthy. He has agreed to stay away, and I don't see any signs he's reading. But, he did say after my initial post explaining he'd had an affair (we did not have that agreement in place at that time), some of the responses were pretty harsh. As a BS here, when he did occassionally post, he got things like "don't mess this up Turn the page" which was a bit weird to get at the time, but in contrast to what I was getting I think he felt people didn't seem objective. At the same time, he can't expect people to be objective when they know me far better than they know him.

Anyway, he has brought it up a few times because I think he's not reading and he wonders if my flare ups are site related (they are not). What he hadn't banked on is some of my responses to things are different than what his were. My concerns and issues with his affair and how I am dealing with those things is very different than him and I think he has a hard time empathizing around some of those things because that was not his experience.

If he had asked while I was a WS to not post after our discussions surround it, I would have respected that. He hasn't outright said "don't participate there" since I have become the BS, but he does seem to question it more, and he is not a fan. I feel that I can use whatever tool I need to use in order to get this stuff out, as long as I remain transparent and am using good boundaries. I might would take that into consideration later, however. I think when we leave in the RV I will be here very little anyway. I have time to do this during work usually, but I don't get on much on the evenings and weekends (a lot of times not at all).

I think that this is the real heart of the issue. Did you not mind because you genuinely didn't care or because you felt pressured into not caring because of your WS status? I don't mean pressure from him - pressure from yourself to be the good and accommodating WW. One is consensual. One is not but looks consensual. Ask yourself, had you not cheated and he pulled a tablet out to watch porn on and block you with pre-DDays, would you be fine with it or would you have been upset? Your reaction to it now does suggest that maybe you were less okay with it than you thought but pushed that feeling away in order to preserve this:

I don't think it had to to with WW status because this is not something new since the affairs. I actually didn't know that this wasn't normal for most couples. When people started throwing out "your reaction was inevitable" or "you are being dehumanized here", it riled me up because that feels right to me. I felt justified. I didn't need to feel justified to have the conversation with him, I had planned to do that anyway. But, it did help to have people express that to me, and having explored it thoroughly before hand also helped.

I was also made more upset that he asked me if I was initiating and stopping on purpose to punish him. It was a question that lacks empathy or remorse as to a more likely reason having to do with his affair. To him, he was just trying to figure out what the heck was going on. To him, it seemed like the times I stopped correlated with me initiating, and that everything was going fine. And, he might be right, maybe I did have a worse reaction when I also initiated for some reason.

I think this is a product of a few things:

1. I now see his sexuality in a sinister way.

2. I feel like more than ever I am not enough for him. I realize that there has been an element to our relationship around this that has always been there. The swinging when we were dating, the open way he would discuss other women's looks, etc.

3. It now makes me feel used, dehumanized.

4. It bothers me because it's definitely an impediment towards rebuilding intimacy.

That was a long winded way to say, this was not only acceptable before but I enjoyed it. Now, it's completely soul crushing. I needed to come to terms with that.

In our discussions over the weekend, I am actually asking for a lot of changes in addition to this. I want him to change how he initiates, some of the signals he uses are also now unacceptable to me. I also have asked that he stop using whether or not I climax as a barometer for my level of enjoyment. No porn use is a must. I have asked that we experiment more in hopes of getting out from under some of the laziness the porn provided. I have also stated that connection is paramount to me right now and without it, there will not be sex.

I think after the initial harsh feelings I shared, the conversation turned more into "Okay this is project, and it could be a fun project". He is fully on board, and we actually even joked about him not being able to use his "go to" initiation tactic because it was hilarious to us trying after all these years to figure out whether the other person was wanting sex that night. I contend that mystery is part of it, that organic nature that gets taken out with our signals for sex.

So, I do feel pretty good about how the conversation went and what has followed so far. I feel a lot differently on the topic after we had a chance to talk. I will share that he did seem very disheartened to hear I felt some of the ways I did, so I do not think it was a conscious thing if he was trying to re-establish dominance. I do not discount that he may have been doing that, but was less aware or intentional about it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:35 PM, March 16th (Tuesday)]

2. I feel like more than ever I am not enough for him

My BW said the same thing to me many times.

Most recently this past year with Covid and my stress and anxiety levels peaking I was not getting aroused or even interested in sex much. My BW started to worry.

Difference these days is that she vocalizes that to me, we talk. I realized it was a vulnerability she was showing me and I needed to figure out with her help how to ease those fears.

Keep finding ways to talk.

I agree communication is key.

But, someone else here touched on something I think is a thing too. In the moment sometimes I can not express what is bothering me because I do not understand what it is sometimes.

Part of me writing this post was coming to terms with what was bothering me. After all, something you have done so many times in the past and enjoyed, now you feel offended and hated it? Something there didn't feel fair to me. I knew we needed to talk about it, but I needed to think about it more.

The person who responded about that says it's waywardness. I don't know that it is. I did see a video recently about people who don't auditory process very well will often say "What?" but then go on to answer the question. I learned this is a sign of ADHD. That would really explain a lot to me, I am thinking of getting tested. I don't know if the two things are at all related, but I don't think it's neccesarily wayward to need time to process what's bothering you. I have been thinking about that post though.

He is fully on board, and we actually even joked about him not being able to use his "go to" initiation tactic because it was hilarious to us trying after all these years to figure out whether the other person was wanting sex that night. I contend that mystery is part of it, that organic nature that gets taken out with our signals for sex.

This part confuses me. Why should it be difficult to figure out if your partner wants to have sex. Why not just use words and ask them? The last thing I would ever want is communication issues about sex!

I don't think I've ever been in doubt if a partner wanted sex, nor do they wonder if I want to have sex. I mean, either one of us can just show up in something sexy and give the come-hither look if you really don't want to just ask, but words can be sexy too. You can even negotiate a nonverbal signal if that's what floats your boat.

Think of what sex was like when you first met. You don't have to already be aroused and interested to want to have sex, if your partner is. Just being open to the idea of being aroused can get you there pretty quickly. And that's not just a woman thing, either.

What does "feeling like not being enough" mean to you? What defines "enough"? I find that to be an interesting thread that could be pulled on. As a nonmonogamous person, I don't have other partners because my husband isn't enough. It has nothing to do with my husband. There is literally nothing he or anyone could do or be that would make me be willing to be monogamous again, because it's about me, not about anyone else. I would tend to think the reverse is true as well. So regardless of your history, I suspect your issue is not about whether or not you're enough for him, but whether he wants to be monogamous and engage in sexual ways only with you. And again- whatever he wants is about him, not about you. I am hoping that perhaps considering a different viewpoint on this might help alleviate that particular concern.

To Hiking Out:

Haven't read the entire thread.

The comments about empathy, lack of it, stood out.

We are currently working with the topic of empathy here.

I wrote several novellas in the I Can Relate/Those Who Found Out Years Later. I will be more succinct here.

Husband was raised by two flaming narcissists: his father is a grandiose narcissist and his mother is a covert passive aggressive narcissist.

His parents' marriage is a relentless control struggle. They hate each other. They love to hate each other. They are extremely envious of others who have accomplished, invested, acquired things, lifestyles, opportunities, real estate, pretty much *anything* they didn't have. The kicker is, they could have *easily* done/had/acquired/experienced these things for themselves, together, if they could have only gotten on the same page, and if they could have only been less grudging with each other.

Neither of them wanted to compromise, to 'let' the other have even a modicum of individual, independent happiness, etc. Or allow any significant money spent that wasn't 'Me' centric each for themselves. So many opportunities unrealized, and they hate anyone who *is* happy.

Mutual respect, respectful boundaries, and most importantly, empathy, were not modeled at home.

These two people are devoid of empathy toward each other and toward anyone else. Two things they do well together: demand centrality and bully up on other people.

Husband is not emotionally truncated. He is capable of empathy. He is compassionate. He absolutely *hates* it that he hurt me.

But, he does compartmentalize like no one else I've ever known.

And when he is seeking validation, he can be incredibly narrowly focused on that validation, to the exclusion of just about everything else.

As an adult child of narcissists, it makes all kinds of sense that validation can shut off the empathy switch.

Husband also struggles with understanding his own internal landscape, often not recognizing entirely valid emotions and responses.

This also makes sense. Narcissists do not allow for other people's emotions.

Your comments about your husband, his relationship with empathy, his detachment from his own emotional landscape, kinda familiar.

I'm kinda thinking about your experience of your marriage prior to your affair. IIRC, boundaries were an issue. Your personal boundaries were not recognized or respected.

Also kinda familiar.

What are your husband's parents like?

What was his family life like?

This part confuses me. Why should it be difficult to figure out if your partner wants to have sex. Why not just use words and ask them? The last thing I would ever want is communication issues about sex!

Everyone is different I guess. I can explain what it means to us.

There are definitely times one of us say "you wanna" and we go get busy. To me, the very best times are the ones that organically occur, where you weren't thinking of having sex but suddenly both feel inspired. Surprise sex? Spontaneity is really good!

But, then you have two busy people during a work week, 3 kids, and less energy. You are limited for years to mostly bedtime sex. The least inspiring way to start sex that there is. That doesn't mean it's not good when you get going, it's just the getting over the initial starting points. So, over the course of a really long term marriage I think people develop signals. These signals are more "I am open to it if you feel like it" sort of things. Some are subtle, some are not.

So, one of the main things my husband has fallen into is coming to bed naked on nights he is hoping for sex. This should not bother me, but it does. It feels like an expectation and it shuts me down immediately. I don't know why, and if I could explain it better I would. It's far better than the whole pressing the erection on the leg, or lower back thing that seems to be common enough I hear people complain about that.

We have had a highly sexual marriage. In our early years all that needed to happen was for one of us to get naked and we were on it. Now that I am older, I wouldn't say I need a lot to get started but I would far rather some sort of bids for connection/affection that sometimes leads to sex. I do not think it's unrealistic to want that because we are not ever in a dead bedroom status. We typically do not reject the other's desire to have sex on a long term or untenable type of basis.

So, for us, this is about undoing certain patterns and also trying to get to know each other sexually again. I say that not just because of the affairs, but because now that we have gotten older I think we have not recognized the changes in each other because so much has become automatic.

So, now, I find when he's coming to bed with his drawers on, I am laughing because now I have no idea. Which it's sort of the point, right? Having no idea right now is pretty novel for me.

I don't know, PTSI. We have been married for decades. I am going through menopause. This is where it's at - good, bad, or ugly.

Maybe someone else can chime in and tell me if what I am saying is normal or not. Apparently, this porn thing we did was out of the normal range of what most of y'all do.

What does "feeling like not being enough" mean to you? What defines "enough"? I find that to be an interesting thread that could be pulled on. As a nonmonogamous person, I don't have other partners because my husband isn't enough. It has nothing to do with my husband. There is literally nothing he or anyone could do or be that would make me be willing to be monogamous again, because it's about me, not about anyone else. I would tend to think the reverse is true as well. So regardless of your history, I suspect your issue is not about whether or not you're enough for him, but whether he wants to be monogamous and engage in sexual ways only with you. And again- whatever he wants is about him, not about you. I am hoping that perhaps considering a different viewpoint on this might help alleviate that particular concern.

I can understand what you are saying here, but mostly just from a logical standpoint. I didn't feel jealous when we did the swinging when we were dating. But, I did decide that wasn't for me. I am a monogamous person. I know that may sound funny since I cheated, but it's true. My husband just had an 18 month affair behind my back, not in an open relationship. For us to restore our relationship, it does need to go back to being monogamous with some assurance that it will remain that way. Restoration of this being a special thing between us. This early out, I do not feel like I am enough if I am naked in the bed with you giving you oral sex and you are more interested in your tablet than you are with me this is not a time where I can emotionally handle that. This is not a philosophical analogy, it's actually pretty literal. I do understand we are sexual beings and what can turn us on can be limitless. But, it's just not limitless for me. If he wants that, we would have to divorce. Logic does not override my emotional needs.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:13 AM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

double post.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:12 AM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

After his dday, I find I resent a lot of this and it's really turned me off. I feel like a masturbatory tool and it's unacceptable to me now. We have had a few times where I just stopped and left. In fact, I did so last night. I was *down there* and he pulls out his tablet and I literally can't even see his face around it. I tried to ignore it for a few minutes but then I just got so pissed he is lucky I didn't bite him. (I honestly had to resist the urge)

This is absolutely cruel. I can't imagine he was doing anything else than being intentionally hurtful. You were right not to tolerate it.

I have seen some BS on this forum say things to the effect of "The BS is entitled to act any way the BS wants because the hurt the WS caused is just so huge." Actually, I disagree with this. You are also a human being and regardless of what "should" or "should not" happen, your human self is only going to be able to tolerate so much cruelty.

When I was trying to R, the point was not to extract the as much pain as possible out of WH, the point was to get to a place where nobody was hurting anybody. To have a worthwhile marriage, BOTH partners need to focus on the goal of getting OUT of abusive behaviors.

My personal view of pornography is that is for single people. In my marriage, there are 2 kinds of women. Me, and not me. If she is not me, he has no business (sexually) with her, period.

I'm kinda thinking about your experience of your marriage prior to your affair. IIRC, boundaries were an issue. Your personal boundaries were not recognized or respected.

I think that they were not recognized or respected by me. Some boundaries didn't even exist when they should have. That part I see is on me. If I had drawn lines in the sand and he kept crossing them, that would be one thing. I generally do not feel that was the case. I wouldn't say it was perfect, but I don't think he went around making a lot of decisions without trying to get my input. I can't blame him that I deferred to him more than I should, or that I didn't feel deserving of speaking up to what I really wanted to see happening.

His lack of awareness of his emotions, that's on him. I do not know where that comes from. Other than he's a 60 year old man who was raised in the south. His family is outstanding, they are really good people. I will say that someone in their family said something to me recently about their mom that helped give me some context. It was "we didn't talk about feelings in our house. Mom held in any suffering she might have had".

What are your husband's parents like?

What was his family life like?

I never knew his father. His mother is salt of the earth. His family is much more functional and has more quality people in it than mine does. The clue could have been the dad, I do know he had his own affair and almost left. My husband was too young to be told what was happening at the time. He has recounted another story where his dad was leaving to play cards and his mom didn't want him to go and he thinks though he didn't visibly witness it that his dad put his hands on his mom in some way meant to hurt her enough to back off.

When people talk about his dad, I don't get the impression that it's with anything but respect, but there are definitely some things there that aren't exactly right. I haven't asked too heavily about what he's doing in therapy with Foo.

I think what you are describing is the perfect normal evolution of a long term marriage. With,or without an affair.

1. I now see his sexuality in a sinister way.

Though all four resonated, this resonated the most, and actually blends into the other three.

When betrayal gets involved, and sexual trust is broken, it seems like sex becomes a "thing" instead of a way to connect or show love or be loved. What was once "special", is now just a way to get off and it doesn't really matter who gets us off. (After all, any boundaries set or vows made didn't matter in the moment more than the orgasm, right?) WE were not "enough" to combat that sexual desire or desire to feel wanted/needed by someone new. I think this is also partly a defense mechanism. We deny their sexuality as anything positive because it has hurt us.

I think perhaps this also dredges up ways in which we either did/didn't express our own sexuality and the messaging we received through family/religion/society about our sexuality. For you specifically, it might be making you realize how NOT okay certain things you have done in the past were, but you went along with them for whatever reason. (Side note: not saying that any swinging/poly or even porn stuff is inherently wrong, but I do think many people engage in these things because they feel like they must to either please their partner or prove that they aren't prudes or inhibited sexually.) Sometimes it's hard to say "Hey, I've changed how I feel about this (or this feels wrong to me now), and I'd like to stop. I think you and TTP having that first conversation is a really positive step in the right direction.

Right after I responded last time, I listened to a podcast with Alex Katehakis (it was the podcast of a love addict) and they were talking about her book, Erotic Intellingence. I've been reading it, and thought it's for sex addicts/partners, there are a lot of good bits of information and some writing/communication exercises to go through (figuring out likes/dislikes/values to rebuild intimacy. I feel like anytime you sit with your partner and really talk, it helps makes connection, which builds intimacy and leads to more fruitful physical experiences.

As an aside, this has made me see my own sexuality as sinister too.

ETA: I too think this is "normal" in a LTM. I've been sleeping with the same man for 25 years. My own sexuality and likes/dislikes have changed. Especially after DDays, but even before. I used to love dirty talk. Now, I feel like if there is dirty talk he is dehumanizing me and using me. Same thing with quickies. I used to hate having my breasts touched (mostly due to years of extended breastfeeding and being touched out) but now I like it. We change. Our experiences change us. Heck, our bodies change. What was once OK, felt good, etc. is not okay now. The onus is on us to communicate when we notice those changes - and determine new boundaries. That's the hard part of course.

[This message edited by TX1995 at 11:27 AM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

Thank you Hellfire and Tx1995.

For you specifically, it might be making you realize how NOT okay certain things you have done in the past were, but you went along with them for whatever reason.

Yes. I think that all this relates back also to some issues created by the SA growing up. You learn to be "pleasing" as a woman, and if you grew up with SA, this is even more true. You are groomed to see this is part of your value somehow.

I do not as a grown woman feel this is part of my value any more. But, remnants of that ties to my own affair, and allowing myself to be used sexually to garner attention. I mean, generally, that's what SA is like as a child. In this case, I was obviously deciding to be there and I am responsible for it. But, there is an arch there that you can see. And, I think this translates now to a new awareness.

I think it's part of how I felt pressure to be a cool wife. Now, I am more prone to think about what it is I want and why. I think some of the sinister comes from a predatory thing that isn't really there. And, like you I see mine as sinister in some ways too.

I will check out the podcast/book, I am actively wanting to learn more about enhancing intimacy and what that might look like moving forward. I know this seems strange when we are just 5 months out from his affair, but if we are going to be having sex anyway (which I know we are) then I want to work on it. I want to expand parts of it and remove other parts. Some of it is demeaning, and despite the way some of this reads, I don't think that's his intention to demean me. I might change my mind on that, but I don't feel at my core it's true. I have had bad judgment in this area obviously so it also may just be a blindspot I am going to see as I work through this.

So helpful this discussion has been for me. I can't express my appreciation of it enough. It took a different arch than I expected, but that's been a good thing.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:45 PM, March 17th (Wednesday)]

HO- I'm not sure why you'd want to figure out what "normal" is, though. Who cares what everyone else is doing? What's far more important is figuring out what works for the two of you. There's really no right or wrong way to have sex if both partners are happy- the issue here is finding that place where the two of you are both happy!

I'm not into "signals", personally. No matter how long you're with someone, it's always open to misinterpretation. Not to mention that sometimes it means something else because they're trying to do things differently and then we make assumptions etc etc. I'm a big fan of words lol. Words can be super sexy.

I have a kid as well, but I've never really been into bedtime sex, so none of that sort of thing. When I go to bed, I'm tired. That's not a good time to be having sex. I want to have sex when I'm awake and happy and feeling connected, not when I'm tired and wondering if I can muster up the energy. We sleep naked anyway though so this would not be a sign for us lol.

What we did do when we needed to build in more quality time was schedule date nights. Every Friday because just for the two of us. And we alternated who was planning the date so that we both got to be creative and both got to enjoy relaxing. It made us more mindful about our connections, and yes, usually did lead to sex :)

I just wouldn't go chasing normal. There are obviously activities you enjoy, so I'd focus more on yourselves.

With respect to the monogamy, I hear you. I wasn't suggesting that either of you return to non-monogamy- just pointing out that that particular desire is incredibly personal and has little to nothing to do with your partner. So when you talk of yourself being "enough", that has nothing to do with whether a relationship is open or closed. I hope you can cut yourself that slack at least. You didn't swing or have an affair because your husband wasn't enough, right? It's the same for him.

I am not chasing normal really. The premise of this post floored so many people and I didn’t see that coming. I thought this was super common. It was a poor choice of words to ask if the other thing was normal but I was curious if this was anyone else’s experience. I should have said it that way.

Bedtime is not my favorite either this why porn was sometimes used- it made things go faster and easier. It was lazier.

But when you both work, have three small children, and all the other things that go between I have no idea when you find time outside of bedtime. I was up at 5 am everyday, and by the time I got home the kids had homework, there was dinner to be made, baths, laundry. If you find time that’s great, that was not my reality and not always my priority.

I do agree the signals needed to go that’s why I took them out. It’s more of “it’s here if you want it” that requires no response. If one of us is more adamant about having it that’s usually verbal. We didn’t say hey let’s have signals, that just sort of evolved.