SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

@Hurthalo: I hear you and know you're right. But what's stopping me is that I don't know the truth behind that list of men from 1999. The CAB advice re waiting three weeks is largely dictated by my meagre finances - no, not getting divorced because you can't afford it is not an option, but a more DIY approach with a CAB solicitor would give me one last throw of the dice, a chance to see if there is a chance, a stab at getting to the whole truth. Then I can see the divorce lawyer as sure as I can be of my motives. (And I may yet use my 'own' solicitor at much greater cost, don't worry about that).

In a lot of ways, your post-JFO mindset sounds like mine. And I don't have the impression that you are not 'rushing to file D' because you are rugsweeping. I don't think you are trying to rugsweep at all. Part of our stories that are similar is that when discovered, the cheating was 'recent' (and of course it was just flirty emails/phone calls that were getting out of hand ). Then I found out that it had been happening for the previous 4 years and had involved one long-distance physical affair (I had been married 13 years at the point of JFO). I figured that so long as he could 'step up to the plate' from that point on, I could handle that. However, there was always the niggling suspicion that there was *more*. Long story short, my suspicions were confirmed (2.5 years after original Dday!), he was acting unremorsefully, and by that point I wouldn't have spit on him if he were on fire. As craig (I think) said -- having suspicions and actually *knowing* are 2 totally different animals.

My impression is that you are trying to figure out what you are dealing with......and the jury's still out on whether you feel you'll be able to continue in the marriage or not. In my case, I didn't want to make a decision until I had *good* information that I could take time to process. I wanted to know *what* I was dealing with before I made any moves. It seems that this is your current mindset. However, I also have the benefit of hindsight (as do the others who are offering their experiences to you)...... and my 'waiting' for more information didn't change anything -- I'm still divorcing the monster. If anything, starting the process earlier may have led to less acrimony because I wouldn't have entered the process having ZERO patience with him because of all the lying, gaslighting, and blameshifting he had done up to that point (not to mention the new round of cheating he started up with.....).

my choice is to bite my tongue and talk about the weather, or do what the common view on SI is - divorce her right now

Your choices are not limited to *act is if everything is fine* or *divorce*.

An additional choice is what we call the 180 around here.

Be clear with your WW that you firmly believe that there is a LOT more to her story than she is saying and that you need to know the truth if you are to remain in the marriage with her.

And then you treat her like the person who answered your ad for a roommate. She's not your friend, best bud, or wife. She's just some person who you don't really know, who happens to be living in your house with you. A bill comes and you might need to talk to that person about it....but you don't come home, give her a hug, and tell her all about your day.

Civil and considerate -- treat her the way that you would treat a random renter. (which also means that you don't share a bedroom.....)

I just wish I had the luxury of six months to a year to watch my WW for changes

That may or may not matter.

You want the truth. You want the truth so you can deal with the situation and then see how you feel. Your wife cannot seem to understand that.

She most certainly needs a professional to help her with some kind of deep seated and most likely past issues to ever get to the point of being honest with you.

Excuses are always the same, she feels if she tells you the truths, than you will leave. Yet she cannot like many other WW's, cannot grasp that you will leave because you dont know the truths.

So the bottom line is, when is her next affair. That is what happens when deep seated issues are not fixed. That is what happens when the WW finds lying easier than fixing.

You might go to the healing library and under Articles look for Joseph's Letter. Print that out and give it to your wife. Here is where it's at:

http://survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/confrontation/joseph.asp

It explains nicely why the BS needs the truth.

Thanks gonnabe2016. At least I'm not entirely losing my mind.

I really am NOT rugsweeping, though I get why it might look a bit like that to some. Nor do I think I'm prevaricating. Yes, I want to stay 'ahead of the curve' but it's been seven WEEKS, not months. Even if it does feel like a lifetime. I absolutely do not want to waste the next 2/3/4/5 years waiting for the straw that breaks the camel's back.

I have been implementing the 180 - more successfully this week - though I could certainly ramp it up. I agree with you though - my last comment to my WW should be that I suspect there is more and need to know the truth before we can move on (in whichever direction). I have said that but perhaps it needs making CRYSTAL clear.

@craig2001:

Excuses are always the same, she feels if she tells you the truths, than you will leave. Yet she cannot like many other WW's, cannot grasp that you will leave because you dont know the truths.

Spot on!! Why don't WSs get this???!??

I have no intention of sitting around, waiting for the next affair.

I feel FAR stronger now and able to contemplate a future without her.

Good, then you should have no problem addressing this "elephant in the room" so to speak about her past A, and any other of her possible earlier questionable behaviors that she is scared about you finding out. Sit her ass down and tell it to her straight like this:

"There are two ways we can approach the future. The current pace and lack of progression is pretty much assuring that we are going to divorce. I want to know the truth about this recent affair, the past affair, and any other inappropriate behavior you wish to hide from me. I know you feel that you divulging this truth to me will end this marriage. I am telling you right now that you being truthful actually may in fact save it because I want to save it. Telling me what I need to know gives us a far better chance than rug-sweeping it away. Granted, I cannot guarantee the outcome if you do tell me. That is a risk. But what I can guarantee is they way we are going about this now will end this marriage. I will accept NO LESS than the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That is the ONLY way to go forward."

If she accepts, then restate your requirements for NC, transparency, seeking IC. Demand she construct a timeline first and foremost.

If she simply refuses to do this, you don't say anything in response. You work behind the scenes to get your divorce process in order and prepare to be a single dad. You stay with the 180. You keep her in the dark as to your progression of detaching and seeking legal representation. Let those final words above sink into her mind as you take action for yourself and your son for a better future. You've given her an "out" to stop the D. It is as simple as sitting down with you and saying "I'm ready to tell you the truth." In the mean time, you get strong enough to handle that truth by maintaining the 180.

I have no intention of sitting around, waiting for the next affair.

Then tell her just that.

Give her some things to think about for a change.

But once you tell her that, walk away. Of course she will deny this. But common sense rules always.

She can't even be honest about 1999, why would she be honest about tomorrow or next week.

Never allow her to get under your skin or provoke you into an argument. You cannot argue with a liar, it is a losing proposition every single time.

my last comment to my WW should be that I suspect there is more and need to know the truth before we can move on (in whichever direction). I have said that but perhaps it needs making CRYSTAL clear.

The kinda/sorta problem with ^^^this is that it can lead to a circle-jerk where you are saying that you 'suspect' there's more and she needs to tell you, then she pulls out the 'drama' card (crocodile tears or anger)......then the cycle just goes on endless repeat -- which is where you are quickly heading.

Don't become a broken record.

You will very soon start to feel like a dog who is begging for a bone and has a master who thinks it's really, really funny to play keep-away.

You think you're upset and angry over the cheating stuff now -- just wait until you start feeling like that dog!

So you've already told her, multiple times, that she needs to be honest and transparent. It's time for a firmer stance. Don't tell her you 'suspect' there's more.... tell her that you KNOW there is more and that she has 48 hours to 'come clean' with it.

Sometimes you have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. And there are never any guarantees that it 'can' be saved, only possibilities.

@Jduff: Thanks for the advice. I like the clear approach you put forward.

I think my problem in dealing with my WW is I find the walls she puts up INSTANTANEOUSLY sooooooooooooooo frustrating to deal with, I never get to say these things as clearly as you (and others) put them here. For that reason the man from the CAB may have a slight point about not making my WW feel under attack every time I open my mouth.

@craig2001: I have said that - but again, not as forcefully as I might have. And, once she's got her back up, my words may as well be in Martian. I will try even harder not to get drawn into any arguments.

@gonnabe2016: Point taken. The word 'suspect' is, er, suspect in that sentence. I'm just slightly torn right now between the CAB's 'softly softly' (not to mention Jduff's) and your '48 hours' approach. I AM willing to lose my marriage to save it - that's why I have been brought closer to the prospect of D this week than ever before. If I'm waiting to see the CAB's lawyer then I have three weeks that I may as well make the best use of.

CAB's 'softly softly'

I actually agree with the CAB......I got a little bit carried away

My main point, I guess, is to watch the 'language' that you use and to be firm without equivocation. More along the lines of -- I know there's more to this and I will not remain in a marriage with someone who cannot be honest and truthful. (Basically, what JDuff said).

Anything except direct language will allow a *reluctant* WS to find loopholes.

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 10:16 AM, June 5th (Thursday)]

Ok saveus, I see that you are close to the prospect of D which is still not being at the prospect of D, or close to D, or filing for D. What are you afraid of in the final analysis?

Couple of questions:

1. Are you able to file for D and get the long process initiated with a lawyer being involved?

2. Why are all of you actions frames in terms of the effects on WW? E.g. pressuring her, manipulating her, getting her to do this...

3. Why are you not looking at things from ONLY the idea of protecting yourself from further abuse?

The best way to speak softly and avoid arguments etc. is to take action. Just let the action speak for you. No words.

- hence filing and the 180. Takes care of you. Says to yourself that I have self respect and am going to take care of me. And again, it seems to always need reiteration, the 180 is about protecting you and moving on with you life with a goal of self-care.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 12:21 PM, June 5th (Thursday)]

Well then, if she won't listen to you without interrupting and arguing, than just print out that letter I mentioned from the Healing Library, let her read and that is the end of it.

She will read it because when you hand her a printout, she will be curious enough to read it.

No more words. None. No more arguing, no more tears, no more poor little me attitude from her.

That is just it. You want the truth, you need the truth, and that letter is perfect.

After that, there will be no more words needed from you. And in all honesty, there is nothing else you can do at this point.

Cooperation is a two way street, and she doesn't want to work at anything, especially cooperation in dealing with the mess that she alone caused.

BIG 2X4 coming here

There is no "saving us" if there is no You!

You are an individual that needs to Man up and be the Man! No really I mean this with all my heart and soul with the best of intentions for you.

The reasons she does not respect you, after reading 30 pages of your excuses, is she doesn't see a man, which is what she wants.

The 180 is a tool to help you realize that you are a human being (Man) that deserves respect and to be treated like the person she once fell in love with. Use it until it hurts, then push harder.

You are being too generous with her on all counts.

She betrayed you, lied to you, minimized the pain she caused you and still makes this about her!

Enough is Enough and Man up to her and kick her to the curb until she shows remorse or divorce.

Tough love is not easy, that's why it's called tough!

Sirric

I think my problem in dealing with my WW is I find the walls she puts up INSTANTANEOUSLY sooooooooooooooo frustrating to deal with, I never get to say these things as clearly as you (and others) put them here. For that reason the man from the CAB may have a slight point about not making my WW feel under attack every time I open my mouth.

Then print or handwrite it in a letter, sit her down and ask her to read it. When she is done, just ask her "Do you understand the letter?" And when she responds yes or no, then give her 48hrs as suggested for her answer to tell the truth or not.

Your CAB's advice is what any stranger not fully aware of your situation would give to another, which is to "back off". But you doing so is to keep you emotionally hostage to this situation. Your not dealing with a wife who is pissed off because you forgot the anniversary. You are dealing with a traumatic experience delivered by your WW. That's abuse. You don't "back off". You make a stand to protect yourself and your son. You want a paradigm shift at this point. This stand is it.

[This message edited by Jduff at 3:15 PM, June 5th (Thursday)]

You talk a good game for making excuses for yourself to give it more time. All those men and little to no remorse.

This will go on as long as you want to it or until she gets tired, detaches again and finds the next OM.

saveus,

I think the reason you are finding it impossible to communicate effectively with her is a DIRECT outcome of your complete loss of credibility.

You say she puts her walls up instantly and you never get to finish making your demands/points.

This is because she feels completely in control of the situation.

And this is because you have blustered since the beginning about consequences and the actions you are taking and then consistently failed to enforce a single boundary or demand.

She has absolutely NOTHING to fear from defying you and continuing blameshifting and being unremorseful.

A perfect example is how you told her you did not want her anymore and then instantly went off to work on your boundaries letter (which I'm still not sure if you have even given it to her).

If you do not present her with CLEAR, UNEQUIVOCAL evidence that she is losing you ASAP, in other words presenting her with a D filing, you are going to continue to spin your wheels in limbo.

You cannot just make demands and NEVER back them up.

At this point, she knows she still has control of the dynamic in your M and you are futilely chasing after her.

This is pure fear and desperation...and it is a VERY unattractive quality in a person.

[This message edited by Dyokemm at 1:25 AM, June 6th (Friday)]

saveus, have you tried other CABs nearby?

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice?

Scroll to the bottom and try out your nearest towns that may not be in the “catchment” of your postcode. I’ve just done where I live and come up with 7 CABs in Derbyshire and loads more in South Yorkshire. I could also get to Nottingham in just over the hour.

Also, try giving these people a call:

http://www.divorceaid.co.uk/

I’ve no idea what they are like, but I just googled “free divorce advice” and that was at the top (along with the CAB)

This might be helpful:

http://www.wikivorce.com/divorce/

What I’m saying is there is a LOT you can do to help yourself. Get knowledge. Knowledge is power and gives you confidence. It doesn’t take much to make a start. I know, I’ve been there. You CAN curb the costs and people WILL help you do that.

@MC_Jack: In answer to your questions:-

1. Guess you meant without a lawyer being involved. The answer is yes though the idea was to have a CAB solicitor available should I need to check anything.

2. If that's how I come across, I don't mean to. I have 'got' the 180 since about week 1. I know it's all about me, not her. I also have accepted for a long, long time that the only person I have any control over is me.

3. Because protecting myself (and my son) is easier said than done - unless I give no regard whatsoever to what's best in the long term (especially for my son). It's very easy to tell me not to repeat the mistakes of others and I get that; but sitting at the centre of all this it's less clear what would be the bigger mistake. I'm not going to be rushed on this one even THOUGH of COURSE I get that my wife's behaviour since D-Day has been nothing short of emotional abuse. And, no, I don't think that's a good life lesson for my DS.

I take your point about letting action speak for me. I do. I am ITCHING to take action but the only two options are: 1. 180 (already doing), 2. divorce (very close).

@craig2001: We argued last night. Or rather I let her get under my skin and gave her a few choice words/home truths. Yes, I failed again. But here I am, back on the horse... I re-read that letter and will consider giving it to her (timing is everything).

@Sirric: Not as big a 2x4 as I expected! I KNOW she has no respect for me. I know that is because I have trusted her BLINDLY for 16 years and allowed her to 'be herself' (that's her way of looking at it - 'I'm still my own person!!!' etc). If that isn't being a 'man' then I'm obviously living in the wrong century. I wouldn't know how to be any different with a future partner - I just would hope I'd have one that DIDN'T choose to stay out so regularly/go see her exes/have multiple As (obviously). You're right, I am WAY too generous.

@Jduff: I think I agree about the CAB advice however I had much the same from a second solicitor a few hours ago*. I do agree that sitting back isn't the answer. Making a stand is. But when that stand is to start divorce proceedings, I WILL NOT BE RUSHED. The 180, however, can go into overdrive.

@Tren0R201: 'All those men'... But I don't KNOW (and nor do you). That's not another excuse.

@Dyokemm: I can't argue with you. Being in control (or believing she is in control) is HER through and through. This isn't new. That boundaries letter though - no, I didn't send it as many people I respect on here made me re-think it and, when I did, I realised it contained (a) some emotional stuff that needed cutting out, and (b) nothing she didn't already know. I know the only time she has responded in a positive way (from my perspective) is when I have seemed aloof, disinterested, self-confident and independent. You don't need to tell me. Filing for D is all I have left, but I am not going to do that until my motives are clear - not just about manipulating my WW.

*I sought more legal advice this lunchtime from a different solicitor. She sensed immediately that I am not yet resolved to D and therefore advised me to take a week or so to see if my WW can be brought round at all. This company is definitely a good option though so it was well worth meeting with them.

You guys are just going to have to trust me.

Thanks UKgirl. Hopefully from what I've just posted you'll see I've already been doing just what you suggested. I found out about today's solicitor by calling another CAB (they, incidentally, had a three-week wait just for a 'generalist', let alone a family law solicitor). Thank you for those links.

Something I somehow forgot to mention last weekend... Our son's Saturday sports club (which is the main one) know.

When I arrived (my WW was at work) three instructors (obviously not including the OM, who was there) approached me, with pity/sympathy in their eyes... I knew immediately they all knew. The lady who runs the club said she needed a word with me. We sat in the bar area (in full view of everyone, including the OM, which I was more than happy with) for a good 45 minutes. The short version is she was shocked, extremely supportive and doesn't want us to leave. She believes the OM will be leaving (OK, that's not the same as throwing him out but then he hasn't done anything that we know of 'on duty'). They are going to keep my DS and the OM apart (I made it clear that's what I wanted) - to be fair they'd already done this as soon as I arrived. Sure there's more but I can't remember right now.

Saveus

The new solicitor has just been brought into this so her advice is not surprising.

You are absolutely CORRECT in not filing for D until you are sure you motives are clear, even if it is extremely frustrating for you and us reading this.

I know you are following the other thread called 'The Unthinkable" and look at what IUH is going through. Everyone encouraged him to file for D because everyone thought he had a clear decision on what he would accept and not accept. What has occurred is he has filed for D a few weeks ago and has already caught WW twice lying and deceiving him, and he has now backed off even though she has not even proved she can be trusted for more than two days of not contacting OM.So he is going to MC with a WW who has no fear of consequences and who just a few days ago told him she tried to end all contact both on phone and e mail but just could not. So he is in relationship with WW who he has absolutely no trust in trying to R and she has him where she wants him, spending money on MC to get answers while she has time to decide if she wants to kick him in the teeth again

That is what happens if you file for D without clear path where you want to go and are willing to accept what happens. So I hate to say it but take your time if you have to but understand you will endure more in the process.