SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've not had much headspace to be on SI for quite some time. So heartbreaking to see new women on this forum. I've been embroiled in a horrific and utterly unbelievably abusive divorce process..... which has no end in sight....

Star15: honestly, I didn't stay in your stuck state for too long because he filed for divorce after lying to me for many months pretending to reconcile while all along plotting and planning divorce. I know what you mean about how you question how much of this is "addiction" and how much is "just because he wanted to" and so he did.

Over the many months of intensive IC, I have learned that the codependency model just further traumatized me and made me believe I contributed to this is some way. And I've gotten much better and can think much more clearly now that I completely abandoned that codependency model. I now believe my STBX WH did all of this because he just wanted to and felt he could get away with this because he was entitled and because he believed I was too in love with him to ever find out. He used my own moral values and how I conducted myself with integrity against me.

I'm nowhere near 100% back to myself; I'm clawing myself back to someone I am slowly recognizing but honestly, I'm relieved to know I won't be stuck anymore with this awful form of dehumanizing abuse of "marriage" once I get to the finish line of divorce.

I just wish we all didn't have to be here together....

SoledadThank you for sharing once again. Sounds as though notwithstanding the extreme pain and experience of being traumatize again by the codependency model, you are now on a very right track and going to see much light again at the end of this very long and difficult tunnel.

But I am curious about your learning about how "the codependency model just further" traumatize you again. Dr. Omar Minwalla has written several articles on that topic and I was wondering how you experienced it.

Hi marji!!!

For a period of time, being told that I have contributed to his choices and I was enabling his behavior and that I was too clingy and needed to give him space all made me even crazier - I started thinking I made him run away from me and made him choose this lifestyle. I couldn't recognize what was real and I started to believe the worst things about myself. I was already traumatized by discovering he was living a double life and then I was traumatized again by being told by his therapist I had a hand in making him this way.... it allowed him to feel righteous and place further blame on me and helped him to shift blame onto me and even through this divorce he paints himself as the victim and me as the vindictive wife who wants further revenge.... it's maddening! So once I started IC with a therapist who has significant experience in treating people with severe relational trauma I started to gain my cognitive functions back slowly. I'm nowhere near what I once was but I'm getting better each day. Hope this answers your question.

Soledad, that is such a tragic mis-use of "marriage counseling" yet so common, and it infuriates me. So very sorry you also had to deal with that, like ashestophoenix did. I am also sorry you needed additional therapy due to the trauma this caused you, on top of the marital betrayal!

I think counselors who operate like that one - and there are many - should be made to refund every penny we paid them, to at least help us pay for the needed follow up treatments their "therapy" inflicted upon us!

This flawed understanding of relationship dynamics in the counseling field is one reason I decided to go back to college at age 53 to pursue advanced coursework in psychology, after my SAWH "acted out" within 4 years of our marriage. I felt crazy, confused, and as you said, initially filled with self-doubts, rather than getting to the truth of how I could have married such a sick man! This is needless pain, and yet so many of us doubt ourselves, first. My eyes were eventually opened to my SAWH's problem, but it took time for his true history to come out, after my relentless interrogation for months and months, as I just couldn't make sense of it, coming out of nowhere like it had seemed to do. Believe me, his choices were NOT about you!

We had actually seen a "relationship counselor" prior to even becoming engaged, and so on D-Day (which happened in her office when he felt "safe" enough to finally admit he had been with "another" woman - which was just that once, he swore), I knew I had been betrayed by that counselor, as well! Years earlier, she had been clueless about the possible causes of his confusion and "commitmentphobia," despite those being the reasons we sought her help before we lived together! I'd already broken up with him, after 4 years of "going nowhere" and I felt something about our relationship was "off," yet in 12 sessions, every chance the counselor had to question his dodgy responses to probing questions was instead used by her to support his remaining "safely hidden."

The counselor's repeated glossing over of my doubts about my BF's plans and emotions should have been my huge clue that my instinct to break it off with him was in my own best interest! But I was paying for her "expertise," so I started doubting my worries, and trusted the "relationship expert" when she assured us that his "cold feet" would be all cured by love and marriage! That was the kind of marital therapy she was trained in: enhancing intimacy = marriage improvement.

However - and this is what I still cannot believe they miss - when a person has sex addiction or some other disordered personality, they can have a deep-seated fear of intimacy, of being "known," hence they lie and live a double life. No currently-licensed couples counselor should be unaware that this is a real possibility they should consider when there has been infidelity, especially of the emotionless kind, like a ONS. They are then ethically obligated to refer such a betrayer to a clinical specialist, as the issues go way deeper than the marriage!

Intimacy Avoidance is now recognized to be at the core of sex addicts' personality, and so the well-researched norm of "reciprocal self-disclosure" doesn't occur as it would have with normal, healthy persons. Example: back when I'd been getting to know my BF better, at some point I shared with him my past relationship history, which at age 43 was significant. Nevertheless, my then-BF chose not to reveal any of his past history, as a normal person would have felt safer to do, after I disclosed more of my history than some women would have, to let him "see me." Instead, he chose to tell me that at age 36, he had never been in ANY sexual relationship before we met, making me feel like I had all this sexual experience he didn't! (Well, Duh! His prostitutes didn't count, in his mind!! And I was so naive, it never occurred to me he could have meant he had plenty of sexual experience - with hookers!)

So on D-Day, all I knew was that somehow, our marriage had failed in the most profound way a marriage can fail, and naturally, I wondered if I had somehow pushed him into this, by the stress of our buying a new home together, which of course, was another level of commitment he was showing uncertainty and fear about, even as he was living a secret life. For 5 YEARS after D-Day 1, even with counselors, plural, my SAWH hung onto his story that it was "the first time in our marriage I went back to a prostitute...but, I used to go to them, before we were married..." Eventually, by complete accident, I stumbled upon a 6 year old massage parlor ticket he had left in the side pocket of a suitcase. The date on it was a full year before what I had thought -for 5 years - was when our marriage blew up! So even after all that goes down, they will cover their truth at your expense. Your truth is irrelevant to their internal well-being. And this is so pathological.

It is NOT about anything we did or about anything we could have prevented. We were victimized. Wish all marriage counselors were properly prepared to help the BS through this trauma.

Soledad, I know this was long, but I wanted to share about the importance of a good counselor, by demonstrating how it took years with no real help from any counselors we ever saw, before I could off-load all the shame and guilt his actions brought on my self-esteem. I too am not 100% back, but I assure you, that you will come out of this place, with the good help you are finding.

Soledad thank you so much for explaining and sharing that--it's actually so exactly right on point with what Dr. Minwalla and some other betrayal trauma therapists have spoken about--the retraumatizing of betrayed partners and spouses by incompetent therapists--or put more bluntly--misogynist therapists.

In that model we all enabled all these betrayers by having anything to do with them in first place --indeed by virtue of our existence. The ultimate in blaming the victim and freeing the violator from responsibility. Wish there was some sort of hotline we could use to warn each other about those so called counselors.

So great that you are coming back to yourself, working with a good therapist; you give us all valuable insight and hope. Thank you.

Soledad, I'm so sorry. I wonder if your STBX is NPD and not an SA. His viciousness makes me wonder. I hold you in my virtual embrace while you wait for the divorce to be final.

Superesse, all good points. Sadly, I've learned alot about therapy induced trauma. The reality is there are alot of crummy therapists...period. The therapists who abused me were women!!!! Honestly, I don't believe they set out to abuse me, but they need therapy themselves.

I read a post from Dr. Doug Weiss just today to partners. He's one of the original SA's who became a therapist. He's come a long way from "partners are co-addicts or co-dependent" and finally gotten to partners are trauma victims. He himself saw that his own narcissistic traits prevented him from seeing partners clearly. He says we should be careful of therapists who aren't trained. Be very careful if they say "have more sex". He says he is shocked by the number of therapists who are undiagnosed sex addicts themselves. I think my husband's first IC post discovery is an SA. He now sees a trauma therapist, a woman, and he is doing such better work.

I think early on there was a knee jerk view that we HAD to be co-addicts. They took the AA model and just glommed it on to us even though it's a completely different addiction. The women who counseled me, I believe, had their own unconscious issues about sex and marriage that they projected onto me. It was like I wasn't permitted to have a happy marriage probably because they both had unhappy marriages but could not admit it. And I think most therapists are clueless about SA. Just the anorexia should be a big red flag.

Also, MC's view both parties as equal problems and that the issue is to "return" to the good state that once was. There NEVER was a good state with an SA. They enter marriage as an SA. Dr. Weiss says 98% of his addict patients developed the addiction around age 12.

We really do need trauma therapists. Relational trauma therapists are even better. Relational trauma therapists who understand partners of SA's are the best. There aren't many out there.

I think SA's CHOOSE us rather than we are co-addicts or co-dependents who choose them. I think we all probably weren't very needy at all...that we were self-sufficient and EASY for an SA. I think my husband did see me as weak and broken, and isn't that sad. When he met me I had just emerged from an abusive relationship, so I wasn't at my strongest point, and now that I look back, sadly, I think that is what attracted him. I think he saw me as easy to manage; easy to manipulate; easy to fool; someone to take care of him and someone who would never discover his SA which he would never give up. It's very sad. And it's very enraging.

I was telling my husband today about Dr. Weiss's post. Dr. Weiss makes a strong point that it is NOT our fault. And my husband turned to me and said "It wasn't your fault. It was all me." And....for the first time, I believed him. Mind you, this is over four years post discovery. But I appreciated him saying it. I think it took him this long to really accept this truth. I do believe he has remorse. I also believe he is very, very, very self centered and still terrified of intimacy and still attached to being a victim. He's got a ton of work to do.

I've come a long way in my individual trauma work. It does take a long time to heal and get back to our true selves. This trauma we experienced...it's now part of our lives. It's part of us. I have come to terms with it and I am okay. In my last session, my IC said "some of your wounds from your husband are very deep." And I agree. And she said, "you may not fully recover from them." And I agree. I've learned just how much he betrayed me in so many ways....layers upon layers of betrayal. He's big time into betrayal, probably due to his mother enmeshment. He gets off on betrayal. He hasn't had the courage to look at this yet.

The reality for me is that I will never fully forgive my husband. Much of what he did was unforgivable. I don't need to forgive him. I had gotten so very sick for a long time and he betrayed me, abandoned me, neglected me, was contemptuous and disgusted by my illness, and felt he was the victim of my suffering. He did shameful things to me. While I am in remission and have this gift of health and a new life, I hold this reality: I don't love my husband and I don't choose to love him. I have compassion for his early trauma. My rage at him is manageable. My grief at my losses is very hard. I am relieved my husband is sober and getting help. I see him improving. But, I will never love him again. That's gone and it won't come back. I will never desire him.

He was utterly heartless and cruel to me. And I finally am able to clearly and completely know that and accept it. And I can say it out loud. It is my truth. It is true.

I think the reality of my husband, who can look so sweet and innocent and play the victim so very well, makes it very hard for therapists or anyone to perceive the reality of who he was with me. I think he fooled all these therapists. And, sadly, they didn't believe me which I do think is how culturally ingrained misogyny is.

But, I survived. I am getting stronger. I am finding peace and joy. I couldn't have done it without all of you.

ashestophoenix

[This message edited by ashestophoenix at 5:55 PM, September 22nd (Saturday)]

Ashes,

I can so relate to you. My husband is 76. He’s been an addict almost his entire life. We’ve been married 24 years. I found out a year ago. He was sober for almost 13 months, then told me last week he had a slip. We are on vacation and that’s when it happened. Trying to reason or have a conversation with an addict is crazy making. He has not called his therapist or support person. His reasoning was that he’s a recovering SA and just had a slip. Also, it was too early in the day to call. He actually pranced around like a 3 year old making fun of how upset I was. I’ve given up trying to communicate with him as he somehow wants to blame me for his slip. I’m a little bit smartter than that. We are on our way back home. He’s been whistling, humming, being his normal not talking person. I’ve just been ignoring him, too. Answering him with one word. I’m married to a three year old in an old man’s body. Like you, I am sad for him. Along with being livid about his supposed slip and not relapse. I would love to chat with you more😊

My husband is actually starting to do this work. But it's very slow and it's life long. My husband is 75. A young 75, but still.... He's emotionally very, very immature. He doesn't really know who he is. He doesn't really know how to be honest and authentic. He doesn't know how to communicate. He doesn't know how to identify, express and manage his emotions. That's the work he should have done over the course of his lifetime.

And, now that I see him clearly, he's immature, ignorant, confused and ashamed about sexuality. His. Mine. Anyone's. Given all the acting out, he was stuck at about 9 years old.

Sad and tragic, no doubt about that.

ashestophoenix

Hi everyone..

My apologies for the long post upcoming...yes, I've been MIA and for not good reasons; I've been through another trauma and I just couldn't come back to these boards yet. Decided to peek in this morning, and saw someone post about therapy-induced trauma, and figured it would be a good segue way into what happened to me.

As some of you know, I sort of fell apart/lost all ability to cope with our impending relocation back in mid-August, so I went to a rehab facility. I knew when I went, their protocol is to take you off of all benzos. I've had it done before, but this time was entirely different. I was there for four weeks, and was beyond miserable about 90% of the time. They traded out the short-acting benzo I was on to a different benzo, and every 3-4 (sometimes less) days, they would taper that benzo. So they had me off it in 2.5 weeks. The other facility did not switch the benzo, and they tapered it much more slowly. I can honestly say I did very, very little therapeutic work there; I was mentally incapable of processing things, and physically a wreck. I checked out before I hit the four-week mark because I'd developed diarrhea in week two, and it never stopped. I ended up at the local ER one night horribly dehydrated, very low potassium and some blood test (monocytes?) showed I had some sort of anti-inflammatory process going on. Thing is, I had to practically beg them to take me to the ER. They knew how many, and how long the loose stools had been going on because I had to go to the med window for Immodium every time I had another one. After a week of this, they finally decided to sent out a stool sample for testing. Then it more than a week to get those results back, which said everything was negative.It was so bad, two nights (the two nights after I was in the ER) that I actually soiled myself in my sleep; it was so humiliating. So they got me Depends! I'm shaking just writing about this. I finally started threatening to leave, so they tried to get me an appt. with a GI doc, and it was going to take five more days to get in. In the meantime, the clinical director told me I would be excused from everything except my primary group twice a day, and three meals a day. As I thought about it, it occurred to me, "What the hell am I paying all this money for to only participate at that level?" And to say I was participating was an understatement. So I called my H, who had taken over the relocation, gotten a short-term rental in our new city and told him to come get me. I'd been completely off the benzo for a week, and nothing was getting better. In fact, the previous night I spent over two hours sitting at the nurse's station in a massive panic attack. There was nothing they could give me, or say to me that made it better. At that point, I realized I needed to get out of there, go home and see my own doctors, and not have to go through their 'system'. The only time I saw a physician, was the second and third days I was there. All my other appts. were with a nurse practitioner, or psychiatric nurse practitioner. And the two times I asked to meet with the physician, he had 'emergencies' come up and had to leave early. Don't even get me started on how many times I'd go to the med window for AM or PM meds, and they'd have my meds wrong and I had to correct them! I was also horribly sleep-deprived... more than I'd ever been in my whole life. I had a room with two other roommates, all sharing the same bathroom (I had to buy an air freshener for our bathroom) So I was done.

H came to get me and I knew we had a five-hour drive home, so I asked him to bring me a Xanax. Within a half hour, I felt more normal than I did in almost four weeks. I slept like a rock that night; took another Xanax the next day, and slept great again. The next day I had my first solid stool in over three weeks, and I felt so good that I didn't take any Xanax. And the next morning I woke up panicky and with loose stools again. I'd talked with my internist back home the day after I left and he said I should get back home ASAP to see my physicians that knew me instead of trying to get appts. with people in our new city.

So I began to set up some appts. and four days after I left the rehab, we went home. My internist was FURIOUS that they tapered me so quickly and that they did so without consulting either my psychiatrist OR him for my medical history. He wasn't too worried about the diarrhea; he knew I was going to see my GI doc and psychiatrist. My psychiatrist (who I found out they never called) told me to go back on Xanax.. one .5mg extended release twice a day so I wouldn't have the ups and downs of the short-acting Xanax. I had learned about a phenomena called kindling online (yea, I need to stop googling) - what can happen is, each time you wean yourself off of a benzos, the next time you are on it, and wean/taper again, it's a more difficult event. So, although my psychiatrist is telling me to take the Xanax, I'm already worrying about what it's going to take to eventually get me off it. My GI doc can't really tell me why I'm still occasionally having GI issues, but after looking at my test results, thinks it's probably stress-related, or some form of colitis. I do have the name of a highly-respected GI doc in our new area, so need to get in to see him soon.

H and I drove my car (he'd already driven his out here while I was in rehab) out last week; it took three days, and was exhausting, although beautiful as we drove through the Colorado Rockies and saw the aspen trees so yellow. So I am here in the new apartment, just trying to take it easy, because every time I have to go out somewhere, my anxiety level ramps up. I spend at least 50% of my day in bed, feeling overwhelmed trying to research and put together a new support team here. This week I have two 'meet and greet' appointments with concierge internists, and I have a phone consultation tomorrow with a therapist that my therapist found and spoke with. We have another highly visible contact person at a major teaching hospital, who we were introduce to via H's new boss; I spoke with her last week and she is supposedly also working on finding the right 'team' for me.

As far as H and I go, it feels so stagnant. I can't begin to tell you how much he stepped up to the plate and managed finding a nice short-term rental, packing up a small U-Haul with some of our essentials back home, and towing his car out here almost a month ago with our dog. Then to have me call him and tell him to drop whatever he was doing that day to come pick me up... although, he knew how much I was struggling. To a certain degree, I feel like he's sort of had to become my babysitter, who leaves for work for a few hours during the day. He offers and tries to do so much for me, I think, thinking if he just does this stuff, it will make me feel better... and most of the time it makes no difference. I mean, I appreciate the effort, but I am just so overwhelmed right now, being a visitor in a foreign land that I'm frozen. And although I know he doesn't do it on purpose, I can tell when he goes out of his way to do something for me, and it doesn't change my mood, he takes it personally, then I feel bad because he feels bad. I can't tell you how many greeting cards he sent me when I was in rehab, and always included some pictures I could put on my desk. He has really been thoughtful, but after what I went through, I don't think there's anything he could 'do' right now, to make me better. I really don't worry at all about him acting out; I think he is trying to take on all the guilt of what I'm going through, but in reality, losing my two brothers (although we were relatively estranged), my finding out about my genetic mutation in May, and this uprooting of our lives were probably enough to put me in this state of mind. I see the disappointment in his face when he does something and I don't respond with a better mood.

With everything he's had to oversee in the past four weeks, he hasn't gone to an SAA meeting here. While I was still inpatient, he found one that met early enough in the morning to go to before work, but being new here, he has no one to leave the dog with. In fact, he asked and was permitted to bring our dog into work with him while I was inpatient. They all love him, and have made him 'Head of Security'. But he couldn't take the dog with him to the SAA meeting, so he'd have to go, then come home and get the dog, then go to work. And as for evenings, I really, really need him to be here with me; I am just incredibly fragile. He did take me to a meeting last week of an organization I used to be active in, Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance (DBSA). When I arrived, I didn't know if I could stay because my anxiety was so bad, and in fact I wasn't ruling out having him drive me to the hospital to be admitted to the psych ward. But I took some extra Xanax and made it through the meeting and was glad I went. With him being home on the weekend, we got some more things checked off our check list and looked at some more open houses. So I feel really torn right now... I want him to be going to meetings and working his recovery program, but I need him home every minute he's not working.

Yesterday I stepped on the scale for the first time since going to rehab, and I was down 10 lbs. I can't keep going like this. I'm not eating enough, and am still having loose stools, not necessarily every day, but most. I cannot see how my body and soul can begin to heal when it's not getting enough nutrition. This rehab place just totally fucked up my brain chemistry and it's going to take something drastic to pull me out of this; five years ago that was ECT. I've not had any active suicidal ideation since leaving rehab, but while I was there I sure did. In fact, for the first week I was there, they had a behavioral health tech with me around the clock. I seriously thought I was going to die, being very afraid, yet at the same time, terrified I was going to die because of what they were putting my body through. I did do the Genesight testing while there... if you're not familiar with it, a cheek swab tells them which psychotropic medications your body tends to metabolize easier and with less side effects than others; interestingly, the benzo they switched me to from Xanax when I arrived, falls in the category of being one that side effects can be magnified. I mean, I was walking around like a zombie most of the time, fighting disassociation and catatonia. I couldn't look at people when I talked to them sometimes, and just going in the dining hall was too loud for me... too much stimulation. So armed with that Genesight information, I'm hoping once I find a new psychiatrist out here, we can start tweaking meds to pull me out of this.

There's probably a lot more to tell you about how traumatic the last several weeks have been. Until I get new providers lined up and completely transitioned, my therapist, psychiatrist and marriage counselor are willing to do phone sessions with us. But with the two-hour time difference, that's going to be a challenge.

number I so appreciate your coming back to us here on SI. I have been wondering how you are since you told us your plan to go into a rehab place. From what you said, you did not return to the place you had gone to before which I think was The Meadows. Perhaps others should be warned about the place you were smart enough to leave; it sounds extremely unprofessional if not downright unethical and perhaps needing an investigation by state authorities.'

But you survived! Again. Thank goodness. And thank you for explaining all so clearly. Sounds as though, notwithstanding the grotesque nature of the experience, you are now on a good track again and that things will improve slowly but surely.

Awesome that your H can take the dog to work--we were lucky that we could take our dog with us to counseling sessions; though we can't bring her in, if the weather permits we take her with us to SA-SANON meetings so to save almost two hours that she'd be home alone--at least she can travel back and forth with us. Yours is the first mention of doggie matters and betrayal related stuff.

number, I can't help but see you as an amazingly strong and sane person given all the psychological (and physical) challenges you face. And again, thank you so much for joining us here again, letting us know how you are, and sounding as good as you do.

Did hear you on how sad your H seems when he's not seeing what he'd like to see as a result of all he's doing but it's all very complicated and maybe somewhere, somehow, some way he can appreciate how much his help is appreciated and that what he's doing is helping.

[This message edited by marji at 4:43 PM, September 24th (Monday)]

@marji - I was trying to be diplomatic about the place I went to; unfortunately, yes, it was The Meadows. Every other experience we had there... the two one-week workshops I did last November, then January were incredible. My H got so much out of his stay there, but he didn't go in on any substances that they don't allow. I would get so frustrated when I'd talk to him on the phone; he kept encouraging me to get to as much stuff as I could, and I just couldn't do it because I was so incredibly exhausted. From day 1, he did everything offered on the schedule. My first week, I barely made it to three of ten primary groups, and I sat there thinking I was going to die. I think it was not until at least mid-way into my second week that I started attending 12-step meetings; they are mandatory for everyone every night, but I couldn't manage the effort. Of course they didn't offer COSA or S-Anon, so I went to either CODA or ACA. But I was so miserable, ask me a question about anything that went on in any of my groups or activities, and I couldn't answer you. So what's the point of going? They kept trying to add tools to my tool chest so I'd have a way to get grounded when I'd start to disassociate, but really, there was nothing that was sustainable. I do remember walking into walls, and being absolutely convinced I was going to either have a heart attack, have a psychotic break, or stroke. Because I'd had an episode of vertigo just a few weeks before going, we really didn't think it was a good idea to try EMDR. I think the only reason I was able to catch some of the medication errors is because, for so many years at home, every night before I take my meds, I count them out and know what each one looks like, even though they are all kept in a daily plastic med container. The low point was definitely soiling myself during my sleep. The weird thing was, I had very little, if any abdominal cramping with the loose stools, so I'd have next to no notice that I had to go until sometimes it was too late. I'd get up and race to the closest bathroom (which could be 30 seconds away in another building), but yes, I'd have bowel incontinence. So then I'd have to go back to my room to change clothes, rinse stuff out, clean the sink I'd rinsed stuff out in, go to another building to do laundry, and remember to go back and change it in between whatever I was doing. I can't tell you how many hours I spent lying in my bed during the day, with eye shades on, and an iPod they gave me at the nurse's station with nature sounds. It was the only way I could escape from the demands of the program that were just way too physically overwhelming for me. I think the entire time I was there, there was one night that I got eight hours of sleep. I got between 7-7.5 most nights, and I'm the kind that needs a minimum of 8 every night. So yes, sleep deprivation was a big part of it, despite my having earplugs. I was so angered by the amount of gossip that went on between patients AND the amount of flirting between patients... patients who had spouses/partners at home. It was very triggering for me. H said he just learned how to avoid those people, but I'm sure he wasn't as triggered by it as I was. Lots of drama. That's NOT what I went there for.

btw... at some point during my horrible first week there, I remember asking myself which was worse? When I had sepsis and was in the hospital four years ago for five nights, or the almost four weeks I spent there, and I can't tell you which was worse. That says a lot about how awful I felt.. I was comparing it to an illness that has a 30% mortality rate.

number, Im hearing that maybe it's a good place for those who have no medication regimens that need to be properly managed--that they have really good group sessions but not properly staffed to provide medical assistance. There was apparently a grievous mishandling of all your meds culminating in your receiving the wrong medication. Actually sounds like you had to be doctoring yourself while there. So, so sorry but so glad you here to tell about it.

And when you're ready, we'll of course want to hear how you're adjusting to the new place. I know that for some people, like myself, it's the transitioning that is hard but once the change has been made, things get better. Do hope it's that way for you.

While this certainly is NOT why I discharged early... I was originally supposed to be discharged tomorrow... I get to go with H tonight to see D's first feature film debut! That's the reason she's living in SoCal... she's an aspiring actress. I'm trying so hard to get excited about going; I suspect it's going to require a little extra Xanax to get me out in public.

[This message edited by number4 at 7:49 PM, September 24th (Monday)]

Hi Number4 - I just realized that you relocated to Southern CA, and I wanted to let you know that I have an AMAZING Psychiatrist that is down there. He literally saved my life and saved my sons life too. I loved him so much that when I relocated to San Diego, I would drive 1 1/2 hours to see him. Now (as of 2016) we live in Northern CA, so I found someone new, but when this Sex addiction came out (in May 2018), my H immediately reached out to him (not my new Psych) and he saved my life again. Please PM me and I can give you his info. I will respond to the rest of your post later, I have to go pick my son up now. I just though it was important that I share this with you.

number hope that whatever you needed to take worked and you had a really wonderful film debut time. First feature film sounds beyond awesome and all good wishes for her career. Lots of actor people where I live-generally not the super stars but all have very good careers, regular work and love what they do.

And again, good wishes for your coming to really like and feel comfortable in your new home.

I haven't been in here in a few months, but I read about 10 pages to get caught up. I can't respond to everyone, but,

Lavender, I am glad to read an update from you. I was wondering how you have been.

Newbies, I am so sorry you are here. For those who don't have children, yes, I am another one that is viewing your situation through the lens of my own marriage and I am envious that you have the opportunity to get away from your SA.

Number, I am sorry your stay did not work out. The whole experience sounds awful.

We are just …. stagnant really. He is currently going to no meetings. The one he leads at his church ended (it's an 11 week thing, so when it's done, it's done and he will wait a bit and then restart). A few things have happened lately that really make me see him so clearly.

#1 We had open house at our son's school a few weeks ago. I knew we would probably see one of he APs there. He asked what I wanted him to do if we saw her. I said to stay close to me, keep physical contact, ignore her, etc. As we were leaving, we saw her in the hallway. She was coming, we were going. AFTER she passed us, he grabbed my hand like it was some grand gesture. I yanked it away and said quietly "It's too late for that now, isn't it?" I didn't mention it again.

#2 Two weeks ago, while we were waiting to pick up some of our kids from church, we saw another AP waiting on the steps for her child. She was talking with some of the other parents. I sat there and fantasized about getting out of the car and pushing her down the steps. She was literally may 10-12 feet away from me. It was torture. I kept willing her to look at me; I was going to flip her the bird. I will give SAWH credit, he reached over and put his hand on my shoulder. I wanted him to say something to me, like "I love you". or "You're all I want." Something! Anyway, I noticed that she was wearing the same Garmin watch that I have, same color band. The next day, I ordered a new band for my watch so that I won't have the same one anymore. Problem is, after I replaced one band, the screwdriver and the screws stripped on the other band. So, now I look like an idiot with a watch with one blue band and one black one. I will take it to a jeweler and see if they have the appropriate tools to help me.

#3 Yesterday we went for a run together. When we run, I noticed that most people wave when they pass us (small town and all) and he waves back. At men and women. It bothers me, but I finally said something. I just said, "You know, it bothers me that you wave at people, especially women. Will you please stop doing that?" He said nothing. I waiting a minute, then asked "Do you have anything to say?" He replied "Nope." After I asked why not, he said "I have been bitched at all day at work and I am not going to put up with it now." Well fuck you very much then, I thought. We didn't speak for the rest of the run except for a few feeble attempts by him to excuse his behavior ("See? Those last three cars all waved and they were all men." "I am just paying attention to make sure we don't get run over." "They wave first, I'm just being nice.") etc. It's so typical of an SA, no regard for the BS feelings, just trying to stay out of trouble.

On the subject of codependency, I balked at that term for a long time. We went to a Christian 12 step group for a while, and I didn't like the way they presented the idea there. But, I finally did figure out what codependency means FOR ME. For me, it meant that I spent too much time worrying about what he was doing, managing his recovery, thinking about boundaries, spying on him, letting myself get triggered and then spending an entire day digging trying to find anything I may have missed, analyzing things he said, etc. I finally realized that I am dependent on the relationship as if the marriage is the most important thing. It isn't. My happiness, and the happiness of my children is that my life is truly about. And the way I decided this is I thought about what would I do if he disappeared? I thought, if he died one day, what would I do with myself? How would I parent differently? What would I do in my spare time? And I decided to make those changes now. Because I can't change him. I can't control him. I can't do his recovery for him. Too bad too, because he is doing a shit job at it.

Divorce is a fantasy for me, I cannot support myself and the kids, even with child support. I mean, if I went to work full time maybe I could but with a baby it's not something I want to do. I enjoy being a stay at home mom, spending time with the kids, being involved at school, having lunch with friends, etc. I deserve that. At this time, I feel sure that I will divorce this man one day, but it could be 10+ years from now.

I read in one of his books from class (in one of my weak moments, I was snooping) that he wrote that he is afraid of living in a loveless marriage.

I find that absolutely HILARIOUS. HILARIOUS!!!

Oh, and we haven't had sex in a year. I told him, he must be able to be emotionally intimate and get a vasectomy or I refuse to have sex with him. He is not making any moves to make either thing happen. So I see no point in wasting any of my time on the relationship either. I go through the motions. We have date night and I treat him like a friend. We parent and try to be on the same page with discipline and such. We exercise together and are training to do a duathlon together. We really make better friends than anything else.

Upon seeing a recommendation online for the show Shameless, I started watching it. Wow, what a train wreck. It's a good show, but there is a lot of sex in it. Yesterday, I was watching and there was this really hot sex scene. The couple was a married couple who had been apart for a couple of weeks because of the husband's job and it was intense, passionate, hot, and heavy. And I thought, wow, I want that. I just want to screw the brains out of a man that I know loves me to the moon and back. To just lose myself to the pleasure and enjoy myself without hesitation. Doesn't that sound delightful? Now I'm blushing. Sex for me is ruined with my husband I think. What he has done has scarred it beyond complete repair. I am mourning the loss of a great sex life.

@veryhurt2018 - not sure why, but I can't seem to send you a PM; I have over a 100 posts, and have sent them before, but can't figure it out right now. You don't have enough posts to send PMs, although you can reply if someone sends one to you. Would appreciate any referrals you can provide, although I'm starting to make some headway. Spoke with a therapist today that came referred from my previous therapist, and have an appt. with her on Friday morning.

Number4 - I'm just going to share my Psych's info with you on this feed. Hope that's okay. His name is Dr. Mark Kosins in San Clemente. He is completely worth the drive. Not sure where you live but even if your in Northern part of SoCal, I would drive to him. Please Google his name. I didn't want to put his phone number on this feed, but you can get it really easily. sorry you couldn't PM me. Let me know if you have any questions. I'd be happy to share with you my story if you figure out how to PM me.

Hi LifeExploded,

Sorry D is not in the cards at this time. I would be a fool to say iD is easy with an addict/NPD/SAS. However, I could not stay with him and just look the other way while he pretended recovery and lied the whole time. It was getting under my skin after 1.5 months. By end of second month I filed. Since then though it still isn’t easy. You have to be ready to fight for every little thing and I had to pause and heal otherwise my SA will manipulate you to the nth degree. I am finally there and filed the next round of paperwork. Step by step/Day by day. I want to be done by Christmas but almost seems moot since it took almost a 1.5 months to prepare the financials let alone the settlement agreement. I was very afraid of what “may” be. I figure anything is better than him coming in the house when he pleases and disrespecting everything then taking off with all his OW(I think there is 4 now)

Every time he does “stop” by I cannot stand to be around him or even talk to him. Of course, STBX has no boundaries and will start telling me about his day. Told my youngest D just the other day he loves me?? Wha?? He even signed me up on his health insurance?!? It’s a monkey sideshow....My answers to his questions are “yes, no” and Ok great.” No need to feed his neediness. I mostly get the child right now. He has not seen the next round of filing. I am guessing when he does it will be WWIII.

To bad so sad, I want what is owed to me and he still cannot fill that void from all this mess....

[This message edited by Lavender0916 at 10:30 PM, September 25th (Tuesday)]

Dup

[This message edited by Lavender0916 at 10:13 PM, September 25th (Tuesday)]

Superesse, marji, ashes, and all the wonderful women here... it's definitely been a very eye opening/awakening time for me. I'm learning to look at the world and my life with no filters from my STBX SAWH and reading these posts though so painful have all contributed to my present being - so thank you!!!

I think, ashes, you may be right, my SAWH is likely some sort of Antisocial personality disordered type - can't say with complete certainty. We both had to take this psychological testing for custody Eval which made me laugh out loud because he likely breezed right through it because even I could keep track of all the questions just worded differently and he is extremely smart and cunning. I can't imagine anything of significance showed up with the generic custody related testing. But based on documented proof he left behind in addition to concrete evidence of his SA behaviors which included forgery, embezzlement, and moving of the finances which has cost me time & $ to track down and his ability to manipulate and distort everything to hurt me through our own child through the divorce without any remorse or empathy all point to antisocial personality of sorts. I have learned being a workaholic & SA are just two characteristics of ASPD in addition to lack of remorse and empathy.

So this is why I could never remain in this marriage knowing what I know thus far (and there are things I don't know but do not want to find out because I don't feel it will help me to heal - this is something I've learned through therapy that knowing every single thing at this point given all that I know now will not help me in any way). I was not this way before - I had to know everything to the minute details but my therapist has shown me it doesn't contribute to the major decisions about my life and what I need to move forward. That understanding and acceptance have really helped me to get to this point in my recovery.

I too believe he chose me because I'm a very capable, competent, highly educated individual who live with ideals of integrity, honesty and duty to do the right thing. So I was an ideal candidate for his needs to provide the perfect cover and to never question him simply because he was my husband and that I would fully support his career choices which meant ultimate trust I would never stray while he lived a freewheeling double life with me easily fooled. So I am not anyone who was dependent on him - far from a codependent of any kind. He just manipulated and used my values against me with no regard for what he was doing to me purely to satisfy/justify his behaviors and choices never thinking or caring about what it would do to me or how it would affect me. And frankly he walks and talks as if I'm just crazy and vindictive while he's done absolutely nothing wrong but to simply decide he needed out of this marriage that he was so unhappy in for far too long! He suffered and had no choice but to engage with hookers wherever he traveled - I made him pay extra to use no condoms and find the inexperienced "girl types" for the highest $ he can afford and consume hours & hours of porn with seriously disturbing content!!!! I made him not want to come home and be with his precious child and it's me that's poisoning my child's mind against him because he was a devoted and loving father before filing for divorce and walking out of the home. Sadly for my DD, the truth of what of father he has been and continues to be causes her great pain which is what hurts me the most.