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Keeping my chatting friend. I stood my ground and after about half a day she came to me and said that she was projecting and that she had no right to ask me to cut ties.

I confronted the OM last night. It was actually my chatting buddy who saw him and told me where he was.

It went ok. Their stories didn’t align perfectly, which I took as a good thing due to concerns of them talking to get their stories straight. He was guarded at first but once he realized I wasn’t coming at him and I was just trying to seek some closure he opened up more.

Much like my wife, he didn’t like having to admit certain aspects. So strange how cheaters even hide their actions from themselves.

I told him to look me in the eye and if he were me he’d want to know the truth. I asked, did you sleep with my wife. He said, no sir I did not. She was not going to let that happen.

Anyway, their stories matched up well enough to help me feel better. I will just have to accept that I will never know for sure. Despite the discrepancies, the one thing that maybe helped the most is he said, she told me when we first started talking sexual that she would never sleep with me as long as you 2 lived together and until she knew it was over. That part is pretty much inline to what she told me.

I could tell he was pissed at her. My guess is he realizes he was being lied too as well. I don’t think he would lie to protect her at this point but I do think he’s more than capable of lying to make himself not look as bad.

I’m close to moving past the information gathering. I know all I’m going to know. If there is more I’m not going to find out at this point.

Side note, wife was not nervous when I told her I was a minute away from talking to him. Her reply was pretty much, good I hope this gives you some closure.

I asked, did you sleep with my wife. He said, no sir I did not. She was not going to let that happen.

Sum, this is ridiculous. She let him make out and have oral sex with her. So because he didn't use his penis suddenly it's not sex anymore? Does that mean lesbians never have sex because there's not a penis involved?

He acts like your WW was doing you a favor by ONLY allowing for oral sex so some how that doesn't count. If she really did say there was no way she would ever sleep with him while with you, why did she go as far as she did? Was she maybe changing her mind? Would she have gone further with him if they kept seeing each other or would she initiate yet another separation in order to test drive the OM? Does this mean the other two times she separated from you she was doing it to sleep with other guys and she may have cheated physically before that too since apparently what "doesn't count" as sex is a pretty long list of sexual acts to begin with?

I understand that you want to put this to rest. You're probably exhausted from the amount of crap you've had to sift through. But I think you should consider that OM was telling you what you wanted to hear. I don't think his words aligned that well with what happened. Did he even admit to the oral sex? He seemed focused on a technicality that he never penetrated her instead of the reality they did about everything else and could have gone further if you didn't catch it. And what he did say about how your WW wanted to make sure she broke up with you before sleeping with him just creates more questions about the other two times she pulled this. You may be satisfied with how things went down with this OM, but what about the other 2 OM she seemingly tried leaving you for in the past? Do you really still believe that she didn't get physical with them when clearly her goal is to date them until she's comfortable enough to leave you for them?

My WW is 14 years younger than I am. She is beautiful and I am incredibly attracted to her. She has a child-like innocence to her and seldom says a bad word about anyone.

She has you willingly in her power and under her influence, only when you will understand the power dynamics and power struggles in romantic relationships and take back control of yourself via the 180 the dynamic between the two of you may change and things may improve. You have put her on a pedestal and now it is time to throw her off.

One way to do this is to expose, and disclose to family and friends that she is actively destroying your marriage and harming the welfare of your family by sexting other men, that will put the heat on her, you can for instance say on social media that you had a bad day because..., for all (and her) to see, you have that right to share what is going on in your life.

At the same time, give her the book that was recommended previously about boundaries in relationships and let her go in IC, as tools for improvement.

Like you, I had the beautiful younger child-like woman, but it was not a fairytale and she was not a princess but a witch and she had me under her spell, 180 plus putting the heat on her (= exposure) saved me, powerful tools for you, please consider.

Strength & good luck

I'm going to give a somewhat contrary opinion on the chatting friend I think. I'm not equating what you are doing there with what your WW did but I would say that in this situation it would be very easy for this friendship to slip into an EA. Lots of times people start in support and go from there to a more intimate relationship. You should make sure your boundaries are very strong here and limit the time spent with this woman. Also your WW has proven to be very immature and she may continue to use this as justification for what she did and continue doing it.

To me I wouldn't have this kind of supporting relationship IRL with a woman going through the same thing. Just too fraught with peril I think.

Nek, those are all questions I have as well. I have asked them and gotten answers. I think we both think very much alike on this honestly. It might not seem that way because I also know her and my conversations with her include emotions, body language and other things that I can read. I know I was wrong about the physical but I also said it wouldn't surprise me either. However, I am a very good read of people in general. I am cloudy with her due to my emotions for her, but she always says I see right through people. I have a degree in counseling (but I am not a counselor) and that helps to a point as well. The bottom line is this, if she is telling the whole truth I will never know. I have to either live with that or not. The only way I will ever know for sure what happened, is if there is more and she confesses. So both options really suck.

I promise you the line between penetration and oral sex is a small one for me. In some ways oral is more intimate. For my wife though she thought there was a massive difference. In her head she things that as long as she doesn't have sex (penetration) then it isn't that bad. I know it is hard for people that aren't like that to understand but she has terrible boundaries. I know in my heart she never felt too guilty about pictures. In her head its just not that big of a deal. I first got worried when we first started dating and I found a picture of her, I think getting ready for prom. She is a well developed teenager sitting in her bra and panties getting ready and the entire family is all around. Her grandpa took the picture. I told her it was disturbing and she didn't get why. Then the need for a picture of her like that. Her mom will hug you and rub her boobs all over you and be totally oblivious to how uncomfortable it makes others. Maybe I am making too much of that because I am super conservative but IDK.

Also Nek I don't know how to send a private message, maybe I cant because I am new but something you said made me want to ask you something but I'd rather not have it out in the public view as of right now.

Regarding the female chat buddy. It hasn't been anything, but honestly I couldn't say that if I were single I wouldn't be interested slightly. She is dating someone as she is much further along in her process and her abuse was physical as well. I am not sure if she would see me like that since we have not even flirted. I do like that my wife is worried. She gets very emotional fast when she starts demanding I don't talk to her. She is worried about it and it makes her face the real possibility that I could actually leave and find someone else. I do play it up sometimes, saying she didn't value me but in others eyes I am a prize.She thinks I am talking about this woman and I let her think that but it is really more of a general thing.

I might get bashed for acting that way but once she started worrying about losing me is when she started to really turn the corner.

PM'ing becomes available when you've reached 50 posts. When that happens, you can send a message to someone from their profile which is accessible through the smiley emoji at the top right hand corner of their posts. I'll keep an eye out for a PM once you get there.

Really need input on this. So it is important to me that my WW suffer. Not for the sake of being cruel but to facilitate change. I think the only chance of change is if the price becomes so great she will never do it again.

I am struggling to balance that with also trying to give things a go? In the 180 is says to become someone she would want to date and basically be carefree. I can't seem to reconcile the 2.

I think everyday I am drifting further from her. Most of the anger is gone and I am just left with hurt.

Sum, I think it's incredibly tough in your case because by some measure, your WW already nearly lost the marriage twice and she still didn't change. I'd have to wonder if the only price too great for her to pay would be to either separate or D and then date her again or date around and consider if you even really still want her by then. I think if you keep looking for a punishment that ensures that she will never pull this stunt again then you won't find one and she's not giving you enough to work with to truly R with. Losing the marriage isn't too big a price to pay for her else she wouldn't be treating this like an inconvenience.

With regards to the 180 - I'm not sure where you got that. Maybe you're confusing it with something closer to GAL (Get a Life) from Divorce Busting? The 180 isn't about making your WS do anything. It's about making yourself the focus and getting you healthier and stronger so that you can make the best decisions about what to do with your WS.

If your WW is responding to you turning away from her by being distant, acting like nothing's wrong, or preserving the status quo, R is not going to work for you right now because she clearly doesn't see this as a marriage-ending event. Just another bump in the road where you get angry, kick up a big fuss, then everything goes back to normal and she can look for another OM to try on. Given that this has been a pattern in your marriage, getting her to see the light is going to be VERY difficult. Maybe even impossible without going to a lawyer and filing for D yourself. That's why the 180 is your friend right now because you are not ready to follow through on coming up to the bargaining table of R with your marriage on the line and she is fine calling your bluff in the mean time.

There are times where you have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it. This is one of those times.

From the FAQ it says this, as well as some other things:

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

I do understand that the 180 is about me and not about getting anything from her. It seems that getting your spouse to see you differently is implied though.

I drift further each day. Each day I pull away and I feel like she is trying to pull closer. For instance, when things were going on I noticed she wasn't saying I love you or being affectionate. She got upset yesterday, saying that I never say I love you anymore. I just played it off like I hadn't noticed.

My man, I read about your confusion regarding the 180, it is not an instrument to get your wife back, it is an instrument to get YOU back. And yes, she may react to that as a side-effect because it makes you your own personal powerful YOU and no longer her doormat, as is evident from:

She got upset yesterday, saying that I never say I love you anymore. I just played it off like I hadn't noticed.

The point is to no longer focus on her, and no longer invest all your energy in her ('honey this, honey that') but to focus on, and invest energy in, YOUrself. Be(come) your own best friend and do what is good for you. Make YOUrself a nice meal, go and see a band that YOU like, buy that motorcycle or other thing(s) that YOU always wanted but she never allowed you to, make life a good life for YOUrself and take care of YOU. More focus on you is less focus on her and her stupid behaviors, you should focus more on YOU and what is good for YOU because it is YOUR life. You are NOT her puppet or playdoll. From now on, should she want your attention or love, she has to deserve it, no good behavior on her side and disrespecting you = No love from you, and it would not matter anyway because YOU make life good for YOUrself and then would not need her anyway. You had your own life before you ever met her, thus you can live without her. Be your own best friend.

Further, you asked about punishment but it is not about punishment but about consequences. Punishment is easy to take and a negative thing and something that you would inflict on her, but consequences is something that she knows she would inflict on herself should she engage in the behavior again. You can say 'If you do A then B will happen, and you would do it to yourself', for instance exposure and telling family and friends about what she does (i.e., destroying the family with the sexting) and making things public, divorce, etc.

Further, read as much of the other topics here in this forum and the advice given there, it will educate and empower you and give you further ideas about how to handle things, it is a knowledge vault here at this forum and knowledge is power.

Strength!

I re-read it before posting from the Healing Library and missed specifically the line about being someone they want to be around probably because I don't interpret what's listed there as being who they want to date in any shape or form. In fact, I see a lot of talk of acting as if you are moving on without them which is the opposite of acting like a romantic partner. There's nothing really care free about it either. Distant but polite is what it's going for. Aloof due to not focusing on the WS and marriage.

GAL is a lot more "being who they want to date" which the 180 is based off of but modified to fit the challenges of infidelity. Being interesting or trying to rekindle flames of any kind is always seen by the WS as the "pick me dance" and doesn't work. It's definitely not going to work on your WW because it's too close to what didn't work the first two times.

Nek, I understand. I don't feel like I am doing the pick me dance these days. I certainly was early on. I do have a heard time balancing things between looking out for me, playing games and being mean, and occasionally dabbling in the look at me/pick me dance. It's like anything else, some days I do really well and others I don't.

My biggest hurdle is that I still want to talk about it all the time. I am just made that way. When my father passed away I HAD to know it happened exactly (he was alone and had a heart attack), what time did it happen, was it quick, did he know he was in trouble, was he scared etc. I was like a CSI guy.

Starting yesterday I have been challenging myself - Don't ask any questions for the next hour. Then don't ask any questions all day. Don't bring it up all day. It's tough, but the record in my head is skipping and I have to reset it. What I have found is this allows her to come to me more often. Give me reassurances without being asked, sense when I am struggling and come hug me and apologize for what she's done.

It's like you said, I just have to be willing for it to end. There is some power in that. Even if it doesn't end or if I don't want it to end, I need to be willing to let it.

Regarding the 2 times before. I am not dismissing it, trust me. My wife would laugh at the mere suggestion that I have minimized it. I have moved on from it. It is still relevant, but those times were just different. We were different then and our marriage was in a different place. I put it all in the past. I have spent hours and hours agonizing over them and for my own state of mind I had to move on.

I can understand why you want to move on from that. You changed. You've accepted it is what it is. But your WW have proven she hasn't changed. Her mindset is still very similar to how it was back then. Hell, she even told the new OM that she had to be sure things were over with you before she slept with him. How is that not implying that she was considering separation again?

She can't just pretend like she's a different person now. She has to dig deep and find out why she did this over and over again. There's no other way around it. Is she in IC or will she go?

She can't just pretend like she's a different person now. She has to dig deep and find out why she did this over and over again. There's no other way around it. Is she in IC or will she go?

This a million times! She is more than willing to go to IC. I really think she wants to stop and wants to be a better person but down deep we both really know it's who she is. I said that in my very first post and I still believe it. I have seen some very encouraging things lately but how long will it last? How is her resolve? She has not once looked at me and said she will never have the desire to step out again. What she says is that she doesn't think she will but if she does she will leave. My problem with that is that this time, she let it get to where it did because, "she knew we were done." I completely believe that she thought that because she is great at lying to herself. When faced with that moment of truth when the time came she couldn't. She didn't want a life without me in it. Even if that is how she felt and she saw it through, it is still cheating. Everyone here knows how the cheaters mind works though.

Something hit me over my morning coffee.

I eliminated the female friend I was talking to. My WW said it was OK to talk to her but after posting here and seeing some of the responses and thinking it over I decided that it just wasn't a good idea.

I asked myself though, what has she given up? She doesn't go to the gym. She is very sensitive to anything that might be hard for me and tries to make it better...but what has she really given up. The main thing I am getting at is, her circle of friends is toxic. Not all of them. What I mean more specifically is they create a world for her where cheating is the norm. They are all promiscuous. They live suspect lifestyles.

So I have decided that they have to go. Not all of them, but she needs to surround herself with people that think like the average person does at least. I know the friends aren't the problem, but just like an alcoholic has to leave that world, she needs to as well.

I know it is different than me removing an attractive female from my circle. I get that, but I am not the cheater. Am I wrong for thinking this?

How do I best go about communicating this to her? I tend to do absolutes, do this or else type stuff. I have already told her how I feel about them but nothing has changed in a month so I do need to step up my assertiveness.

Thank you.

Go back a page and re-read my post about the guy whose WW kept a toxic friend that he didn't put his foot down about. Of course she needs to cut them off because they can and will encourage her to cheat again.

How did you talk to her the first time about the toxic friends?

Just a FYI that I learned during all my searching and reading immediately post dday 1, not using contractions is a very common lying tell. My fch did that. "I did not have sex with her!" Bill Clinton did it. "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

OM in this did, too, assuming you quoted him word for word. "No, sir, I did not."

Oral sex is sex. Kissing, hugging, petting ( Am I aging myself here? Does anyone use that term anymore?) are all part of a PA. Don't minimize it because you caught it before it went further.

How did you talk to her the first time about the toxic friends?

Pretty much I pointed out that all her circle gets around and has low character. Hell, one separated from her husband, got pregnant, and now back with her husband.

I told her they are toxic and not good for us. I don't remember if I specifically said, they had to go but I certainly made it known I want them out of her life.

OM in this did, too, assuming you quoted him word for word. "No, sir, I did not."

Well ,hell. Now I am trying to replay it to make sure he did say it like that. I tend to not use contractions at times because when I was working on my masters I pretty much eliminated using them all together for a while. (Yes I see that "don't" up there)

People just suck.

My wife still has her phone she was using. I haven't ran any type of recovery. I have hoped that the truth would come from her. I have known in the back of my head that it is all there. Every nasty little detail...but I am afraid of it. I am afraid of what it might mean.

I told her I was going to need her phone just now. I think in my head if she had said, sure no problem, I might've just handed it back and said never mind. Yeah, well....she didn't. I do have access to her phone but she knew what I was meaning and why I wanted it.

She said, you are not getting my phone. I said that is basically the same thing as telling me you still have things to hide. No I don't, I've told you everything blah blah blah.

I don't need to see the phone. I know. I don't know what it is, but I know. My guess is that it is really really bad. Maybe it says she had sex, maybe tons of times, maybe tons of oral and many more meetings but...I doubt it's that. I think it will show that she has talked to tons and tons of people and been out of control sexting and sending nudes. I think it includes some pseudo friends of mine. I think her behavior has been out of control and reckless. I also thinks she doesn't want me to see how she talked down about me, as a person, how they had fun at my expense.

I am talking about years of doing it because she has had that phone 4-5 years.

Every day like this just starts the process over. I sat her and protected her early on just like everyone else in denial. I read all the other posts and thought those poor people, at least that's not me.

Sum, I'm sorry she outed herself as a massive serial cheater. But unfortunately, I'm not surprised. For every rat you see, there are 20 you don't see.

I don't believe that saying applies to all As or even most but I do believe it applies to As with a strong internet component and/or years and years of serial cheating. It's just so easy to meet dozens and dozens of immoral, horny people at one press of button. It's too easy. Even the most average of looking women can get inboxes full of compliments and interested men on every given site and most men really don't fair too badly themselves.

If your gut says she's done this repeatedly, trust it. All the evidence you do have points in that direction. And make your plans accordingly from here on out.