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Maybe you are at the place where it's time to try something else.

She did stuff, you did stuff. There is enough pain to try anyone's marriage. She needs to realise that it's a fragile thing and toying around with it is not leading to anyplace healthy for either of you. She cant play stay then leave and expect you to weather it.

She ends these things because there is no hopeful future for her continuing on. Has she really thought about it.....the future? She should. What will happen in 30 years. This is serious stuff. What's missing in her life that she must have this attention? She's got to find out.

This game of flirting and pictures is over.

You both sit down and decide where you're going. What are your goals. Tell her you cant do this on your own. She's helping or she tells you some reason why not. This is your precious life she's fooling with. Selfishness has no place in marriage. She's self indulged enough. I think it's time to quit social media and emails that aren't on a shared account and password. It's too much temptation. What can she do with the time she used to spend?

She's caught up in her body and her youth. Both are just temporary things....tools in our lives. What about the lasting things? All her importance can't be in her body. Bodies change, they wear out. It's not good to be unbalanced thinking one aspect of who you are is more important than the rest. She wants notice and praise even if it destroys her future with you. Why this thirst for attention ? Others may not be kind or patient. It's her last chance now. You may not be able to endure much more.

She changes and you both .take a commitment to grow and not allow outside people into your lives to cause trouble or you save yourself and step away from her abuses.

Thank you for more replies,

Pureheartkit, You are spot on. I had originally said I wasn't leaving her. As I grow stronger and really look at my life, I am feeling more and more like it might be time.

I have been focused on me and it has helped. Another thing, and it is saddening because I feel like it is just game playing, but I have begun to reflect her back at herself. I match her effort, her energy, her honesty...etc. She is hating it and where once I felt like I was beating a dead horse to get her to talk, she is now constantly attempting to communicate. Her attempts are very self-serving but my point is getting across.

One last thing I have noticed is that the initial pain never changes when you find these things out, but your ability to bounce back gets a bit easier. You realize there really isn't much you can do and just submit to it and get on with what you have to do.

[This message edited by SumofOne at 10:12 AM, July 23rd (Tuesday)]

90/10

She puts in 90%; you put in 10%. If she does the work consistently without complaining or backsliding, then you may have something worth saving.

I'm hoping the best for you.

I can understand being cause I used to be very set on waiting, trying ideas to get my WS to act differently. There isn't a thing we can do. It's all up to them. What helps the most is growing ourselves. Sounds contrary but it's true. Hopefully, they grow and keep up with us. Some can, some cant. Stay in honesty and open flow of your feelings. You don't need to do the work of two people in the relationship. She does her half or you ask why not. This is a great opportunity for her if she takes it. You're on a path of discovery too. Nobody ever regrets growing in self healing and becoming stronger and moving toward who they want to be.

She likes pictures? Put up a vision board. Get a big board and paint it the color you love best. On goes pictures of all the goals, places, ideas you wan your life to have in it. Yes, you are going there. You are looking at it every day and your subconscious will help you choose decisions that steer you there. It's her choice, she's a teen forever mentally or she's going to that future with you as an adult. But you, you are definately getting there to a happy life.

I am not sure if I talked about the other man, but when I contacted him, in a respectful way, he came back at me pretty rudely and then blocked me. Up until that I had no feelings towards him. This was my wife's fault and I blamed her. I have too much experience in this area and most people I have contacted have all been very accomodating. BTW, I call this guy, Guy 15 to my wife,there hasn't been 14 other men but I tend to exaggerate. I basically told him that until my wife moved out or we separated I would appreciate it if he would back off. After his reply I have been pretty angry at his brazen attitude towards me and my marriage.

Anyway, as fate would have it I have ran into him for 2 days in a row. The area we live in is medium sized so not a total shocker but I have friends that live in the area I haven't ran into in 5 years.

The first time I stewed and stewed and paced like a caged tiger. I wanted to go confront him. I knew I was pretty angry and didn't want a physical altercation in a public place, or any place really. Luckily someone else I knew came up and engaged me in conversation and all my support friends that I had texted were urging me to leave so I did.

Today I was at Walmart and I literally almost t-boned him with my shopping cart because we were both looking the other way. He smiled at me and nodded. I just shook my head and kept walking. This time some what unaffected by it all.

Both days I was having good days and this really set me back. Triggers are one thing but being face to face with the man that was talking with my wife is totally different. I think I handled this right but a part of me has been beating myself up for not confronting him.

Anyone have interesting stories about dealing with the other person?

I contacted my wife's affair partner twice. Each time I was nice. And each time he seemed nice. He told me they were just friends and there was nothing to worry about. He even got defensive and incredulous when I suggested that maybe there might be more or that he might want more. So I believed that they were "just friends".

Fast forward to today, they were having sex all along and she eventually left me for him and they live together now.

That's just what happened to me. It doesn't mean it will happen to you. What it does mean is that interacting with these douchenozzles is a total waste of time. Why risk getting all worked up and getting triggered and then giving him ammunition to use against you when he spins the story? Not worth it at all.

[This message edited by LightningCrashes at 10:30 PM, July 24th (Wednesday)]

This song applies to my wayward ex:

You always change your colors

When you find yourself in a fix

And when you get yourself in trouble

You just pack your bags and split

And you're off to find a new love

Who doesn't know you like I do

You put on a smile like it's make up

To protect you from the truth

You better find out which road you're on

You can't change who you are

By the colors you put on

You better find somebody to lean on

Make up your mind chameleon

If they don't have what you need

You won't need them right back

And if they gave you the world

You'd find something wrong with that

How are you doing man?

Ups and downs as you can imagine. My anger and impulsivity is better though.

I thought since R is my goal that I might post some of her behaviors and I get input on just how worried or not worried I should be. I have tended to make everything a major issue, it is my pain in control a lot of days.

I have access to phone, all social media, email accounts. I have seen no signs of contact or inappropriate behavior for a bit now. Where she once was never apart from her phone it is randomly left in the house, in another room than she is in, etc. There has been a lot good to be sure.

The bad?

She will occasionally act resentful towards all of the above when it comes to her accounts. It is not usually more than a sideways remark but I notice it.

She has yet to make a big effort to get therapy or educate herself. She has made more than a token effort but not close to what I think.

Her effort to rebuild trust is iffy. I really think her mentality is that if she doesn't bring it up it will just get better on its own. Yet, I told her specifically things I need to see, things I need to hear. I told her my triggers and how she can set my mind at ease. Right after telling her these things she does pretty good, but usually in a couple of days she is in the "Let's pretend it didn't happen" mode.

Regarding effort, the standard I always tell her I want to see is this. Show our marriage just as much effort as you did to conduct the affair. That shit takes a lot of energy.

I have caught her in 2 small lies (are any small when you are so fragile though). Both involved telling people of our circumstances. I am a private person. I didn't even tell my best friend about all this until it was like 2 days before she was set to move out. So I asked her not to confide in people what had happened unless we had discussed it first. Plus, like many people I feel humiliated and the fewer people that know the better. Well, I found out she had told 2 people that we hadn't discussed first. I found out about each person about a week apart. We talked about it and she had confided in this person way before I had even caught the A. So that's fine, I hadn't asked her to keep it hush at that point, but it is a lie of omission at best. After this conversation, I asked if anyone else knew and she said no. Today I saw in her text messages someone "checking on her". According to my wife, this person saw her crying the other day and asked what was wrong. Supposedly she doesn't know any of the details just that we are having trouble. I tend to believe her bc she could've covered her tracks and deleted that text exchange. I still believe when I had discovered the first person knowing that she should've mentioned the 2nd one.

I know I will get scolded but I think the following is relevant. She is just a terrible communicator about her feeling and emotions. The only thing she seems comfortable with is sex talk, even with me. Another thing, she is not overly bright. She is not dumb by any means but she lacks a lot of basic knowledge

Totally different topic but I read a lot about how people have trouble re-connecting physically after affairs. We literally never have that. In some ways, it gets more primal. Anyone care to break that down for me? I feel sad many times after but the during I am trying to break a record or something. Maybe I am trying to show her what she will be missing out on?

You may be experiencing Hysterical Bonding. Look it up.

It sounds like you're doing your best given the circumstances. Keep your head up, it does get better. The real key is to now focus on yourself and your own future. Do things that you enjoy doing and keep your body and mind busy. Don't allow her attitude to affect your forward motion. And always be bold and direct with her regardless of how you think it will be received. You are the prize. You bring the most value to this relationship. Take care of you.

In your very first post you said this:

Since ending it she has been trying to do things right. I know she will never stop though. Why would she? She says she is going to get counseling, which she won't. She says she is going to do a lot of things that she will never do. It is 100% going to happen again.

Is there any reason to believe this is not still true? Aren’t you just coming of the slope of the latest affair and coasting back into the usual routine? What boundaries (not rules) have you set for what you will not tolerate from a spouse? Have you insisted she get into IC? Has she read “How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair” by Linds MacDonald? You should read that too so that you know what to look for in her BEHAVIORS.

I am sorry for you that you seem to be slipping back into the standard pattern. Only you can change that.

Talk to me about revenge cheating? I am curious if it happens a lot.

I have always been pulled to do it...strongly. I want to hurt her as she has me. I don't so much these days but occasionally the thought crosses my mind. What I fear will happen is that a chance opportunity comes up and I will tell myself the same lies she does but mine will be something like - you might as well, she would.

Anyone else struggle with this?

Talk to me about revenge cheating? I am curious if it happens a lot.

I have always been pulled to do it...strongly. I want to hurt her as she has me. I don't so much these days but occasionally the thought crosses my mind. What I fear will happen is that a chance opportunity comes up and I will tell myself the same lies she does but mine will be something like - you might as well, she would.

Anyone else struggle with this?

I think pretty much everyone of us have thought of that, me too. A lot. But thank god I never did. I could not live with myself if I did that. And even if you do it, it doesn't come even close to evening the scores. Cheating while other believes to be in a faithful relationship is in totally different league of betrayal than madhatting. My stbxww even gave me permission to cheat. That isn't even cheating when you have a permission. It would just make her feel better, and yourself feel like a cheater you'd become. You can choose if you want to live with a cheater. But if you decide to cheat, that is a cheater you will never get rid of. Never.

Don't do it.

[This message edited by FinDad at 10:10 AM, August 1st (Thursday)]

Thanks FinDad. In our early days, I gave in to such things. I guess I don't consider it madhatter but maybe it's a lie I tell myself like all cheaters do? I have no plans to give in to it. I made a promise to myself long ago that no matter what I would do things that I can be proud of....now if I could apply that to how I actually handle my WW.

I do think my wife is making progress. Slow and limited but trending in the right direction. I don't think she has yet to "get it" and how to make a real deliberate change but I do think she is searching and trying to find her way there.

Regarding my first post. I trust what I said. It was a distracted and emotional post but I still do believe at this point she will do it again. I am hopeful that is not the case, but the reality is that she will. I don't know if this is the last chance but with everything in me, it feels like the last chance. I have never held her more accountable and I have never been willing to walk if she refused to do what I need to recover. There are a few things she has yet to do, but it is important to me that she does things because she wants to or should, and not because I force her or she thinks it will make me happy or shut me up.

Here's where you guys might tell me to GTFO, I slept with another woman. I was at home asleep and my phone starts blowing up. Its a cashier from the gas station, telling me she is in my driveway. At this point, I had signed papers and had been away from my wife for 3 months. She had always told me she was gay. So anyway, a night of terrible sex takes place. Guess what happens next? Within a week my wife tells me she wants to get back together. We do and I don't tell her of the sex and she doesn't tell me of her boys either. Fast forward 8 months and this almost exact things happens again. At the 3 month separation mark I call her and ask her if there is any going back and she says no. I told her to be sure because I was going to move on and she repeats that we are over with no chance of reconciliation. So guess what? I sleep with another woman about 2 weeks later.

I wanted to highlight this for everyone to read because you and some other posters believe that this makes you a cheater too and IT DOES NOT. Your WW fired you from being her husband. Both times you were separated for months. One of those times you called and confirmed that you were indeed fired from being a husband. This isn't even in the same realm of infidelity. Not even the same planet. If she didn't want you to move on and see other women, she shouldn't have fired you.

You do not owe her fidelity while separated and you sure as hell don't owe it to her when you've signed divorce papers or she says it's over for good. When she throws this in your face, stop apologizing and accepting blame. Tell her she fired you as her husband and she should have thought about that before she agreed that your marriage vows were no longer valid. You did nothing wrong either time.

There's a few things that need to happen before R is even possible. One is the full truth and nothing but the truth. It's very unlikely that you caught her each and every time with each and every OM. She probably has had 15+ over more than a decade of EAs and she has probably had at least 1 PA. Of course she denies it and she throws what happened while you were separated in your face so that you can look like the bad guy. The odds are greatly stacked against her having so many EAs with locals without a single PA AND multiple separations. In fact, I'd argue that there wouldn't even been a real need for her to separate unless she wanted to turn things physical.

Another big concern is her resentment of transparency. This isn't the behavior of someone who understands that she has betrayed you, hurt you, and nearly ruined her marriage. This is the behavior of someone who is waiting for you to relax so that she can go back to cheating. After so many years of infidelity, so many separations, so much expecting you to wait by the phone until she's ready to re-hire you as husband for a bit, she NEEDS IC to even have a snowball's chance in hell to reform herself into a faithful wife.

You're facing a massive uphill battle where you must rely on her for the outcome. Right now her actions are telling you that this will end in D one way or another either from her lack of fighting for the marriage or by her cheating and leaving again. You can keep choosing to limbo, overthink, wonder why she won't fight, and ultimately be hurt and disappointed or you can start choosing you, detaching, and fighting for yourself. You deserve better!

Thanks nekonamida for quoting that. I forgot that part in this story. I thought SumofOne was wondering if revenge cheating during R would help something, and my reply was for that question.

No, you are not a madhatter because of those things. No, you are not a cheater. I did exactly the same thing during our first separation, and while stbxww did and still does blame me for cheating because of it (even if she also had new boyfriend during the separation), I don't see myself at all as a cheater.

It must be a paragraph in the Cheater's Handbook that tells the cheater to blame BS if they do such thing while separated.

A couple of quick questions. I went through her blocked list on a couple of social media sights. I found a few random guys, mostly blocked in the past but a couple of recent ones. What stood out is that she didn’t have blocked a guy I know she chatted with in the past. Why block those guys but not him? I don’t think she has anything to do with that guy fwiw. Her explanation was those are guys that keep trying to add her on social media so she blocked them. Thoughts?

Also is it a good or bad idea to have her send me pics? Since she’s so into it and is her main source of cheating I wasn’t sure if it would be an outlet or if she should go cold turkey.

In your case, it's probably best if she quits social media altogether. Maybe even for good. You are well within your rights to ask for the pictures and for her to shut down her accounts.

Sum,

You remind me a lot of myself and the head space I was in back in 2016 (my D Day). If I could go back and do it all over, I would have moved out.

It sounds like you are doing much of the work for her- sending her articles, encouraging counseling, etc. I did the same thing. I was the driver in our R for the first year or so.

I really don't know why she wouldn't block the one dude. She should be blocking ALL dudes, minus you and other family members.

My FWH is REALLY into sexting, sexy photos, etc., so we tried doing that for a while to meet his need. All it did was make me feel dirty and trigger me. I hated it. You may be different. I don't personally see the harm in it if you both enjoy it and it helps your relationship. I feel bad that I can't meet that need for my FWH, but I also know that's the sacrifice he must make if he wants to stay married to me. He could be back at sexting w/ someone else, but I promised myself I WILL walk away this time if I find out.

Instead of sexting, we text each other love notes and flirty messages, such as "I can't wait until you get home so I can kiss you all over your body." Flirty, but innocent.

In general, the pain never really goes away. It's always there lurking in the background. There will always be triggers.

One aspect of the 180 that I am struggling with is to pull back but not seem angry. It seems I go from wanting to overly discuss everything to when I try to pull back it just seems angry. Any tips on how to find that healthy spot of distance?