SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Saveus, I'm glad you checked in, mate. Its good to here how you are doing. Sometimes you just need to put it all aside and not deal with it for a while. It can become so overwhelming that you just end up in a place of numbness. Its so hard to leave someone you love. Its hard to 180 someone you love. In fact its a living hell just coming to terms with the fact that she doesn't love you in the same way you love her. It just hurts and there's no way around it. Its sheer pain to turn away from the love and support we desperately want from our WS. Its counterintuitive.

It would be wonderful if we were able to just fall out of love. How great would it be we could just snap our fingers and turn off love the same way we turn off a light switch??? I have found for me the best way to deal with feelings is to just feel them. To honor them and acknowledge their presence.

Anyway, I no profound thoughts or good advice. I just wanted to send some encouragement your way. Hang in there and give that lovely little boy of yours lots of love. He is lucky to have you.

Just checking in to say thanks for the latest replies. I did start a reply a few days ago but still haven't had time to finish it. I'll update you ASAP.

Hi everyone. I wrote most of this on Tuesday morning ago but didn't have time to finish. Let me get this out of the way then I'll bring you right up to date.

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@Hurthalo: No offence taken at all! I've had some pretty hard hitting 2x4s but I can't say I think of your name when I think of them. Perhaps you need to hit me round the head a bit harder I'm always pleased to see you've commented.

It's not quite like I don't want to bring things up again in case it kicks everything off again. Yes, things have dramatically calmed down, which allows my WW to open up even the tiny-weeniest bit. But yes, I am very concerned about rugsweeping/hoovering, which is what I suspect is going on... She's been saying all the right things (OK, maybe not 'all' but 'many of') lately but my sixth sense won't let me relax...

In answer to your questions:-

1. DS is doing great. He is such a joy, he really is. I'm aware all this must be having some effect on him but I hope it is being minimised by us. He certainly knows how loved he is.

2. I don't know if my WW is still seeing the OM, is the simple answer, but I suspect she is. Remember I had weeks of complete denials until I found proof of OUTGOING emails to the OM, the night our son had a sky-high temperature. Even then she denied it until the following week - and then it wasn't the five messages I'd seen (but not the contents), it was just the one. To ask after his health. Yeah, right. I worry (a.k.a. 'know') things have gone underground. I could have bought a VAR but as she hasn't been able to drive for several weeks, I haven't.

Good advice about taking time out to do something I enjoy. I took myself off to the cinema on my own one evening last week (was it?). I do want to rejoin the gym (think the end of the month is the best time to haggle a better deal).

@Red Sox Nation: Thanks for replying. I don't believe there's a magic wand. Nor do I believe I can ever get back what my WW ripped to shreds. But I know the woman I married is in there. Problem is I can't bring her back out (and make sure W2 is gone for good) - only my WW can do that.

Completely agree about MC and made that point to her only yesterday. We spoke briefly on the phone. She'd been watching some programme on TV about therapy and said she'd realised a few things - no. 1, how it's not about blame. She said she always thought the therapist would ask a point blank question which she would be expected to have the definitive answer to. Like she was on trial or something. The programme made her realise it doesn't work like that, it's more about discussion and coaxing realisations out rather than bashing anyone over the head with their failings.

I know IC for her (and for me - I chased that counselling service up I mentioned the other day and they've faxed me - yes, faxed - a form to return) is ESSENTIAL. In my opinion, it is for her no matter what. If we separate then her failure to deal with her problems will only one day have a negative effect on our DS again.

On a side note, on that phone call yesterday she - completely unprompted by me - told me she felt it wasn't specifically the A that she felt needed dealing with, but the whole 'bigger picture'. I took that as meaning her life, going back at least into her teens. I'm well aware she could be gearing herself up to avoid the A completely but I took that as a positive in general, as I do believe there are SO MANY issues she needs to confront, dealing with the A on its own would do nobody any good.

In any case, the proof is in the pudding. She hasn't even contacted a counsellor yet, to the best of my knowledge.

I can't argue with anything else you said, about her living in the moment. The frustrating thing, being a BS in limbo like this, is I absolutely, 100%, categorically KNOW she knows exactly how she'd feel if our roles were reversed - yet every time I've asked her to put herself in my shoes, the response has been deafening silence

@craig2001: I can't disagree. There have been a few positive signs (IF this isn't some serious hoovering, which I suspect it is) but no, I still haven't seen any remorse (I get comments like, 'Don't tell me what I'm thinking! You don't know what's going on in my head!'). Less blameshifting maybe, but that's not saying much (I mean, from the depths of blaming me - quite literally - for 'everything', only two or three weeks ago).

I think you've got my 'type' sussed... I've always known I tend to bottle things up, take a load of crap, let people think I'm a soft touch until I eventually explode and fight my corner. Then people are shocked as they thought I would just take their crap forever. Yes, I'm well aware of this and watching out for it.

You're kind of right when you say I am used to the worry when my wife goes out, that it's not entirely true I don't worry where she is/who she's with. It's more subtle than that though - it's like I've accepted who she could be with - but it's the LYING and the SECRETS that would kill me. (Not that I'm saying I would accept her seeing him again).

I'll try to see the doctor today (just tricky when I'm only at work from 9.30-2.30 due to the two school runs). Maybe tomorrow as DS is in after-school club.

Thanks for reminding me to eat more healthily. I've never had a bad diet (nor do I smoke and I drink but only lightly) but lately it could have been better.

Well, here's the latest.

I've been pretty angry this week. Monday afternoon I texted my WW to ask if there was a chance I might know if she would be in when I got home after picking DS up from school. Yes, a bad move, I know. She replied to say she was meeting a friend (female) for dinner in town (the friend paying) - but 'it's the ONLY arrangement I've made for the week as I'm well aware of our situation'. I took my boy for an ice cream and a game of football after school (the weather here has been glorious this week). That's when I spoke to my WW and she discussed that 'therapy' programme she'd been watching. She brought up her (yes, her) suggestion that we spent Thursday together (texting, 'You were vague about it at the weekend' - yes, I was as I didn't believe we had the same aims).

Anyway, I took DS somewhere for his dinner, went home, put him to bed etc etc, and did what craig2001 quite rightly surmised - I didn't so much 'worry' where my WW was as accept the situation and not let it raise my blood pressure. She rolled back in early for her - just before 10pm. But I'd heard nothing from her from around 4pm. Only knew she'd said she wouldn't be late.

In my situation, I guess I should take this behaviour as a marked improvement.

On Tuesday morning I had a text at work saying:-

Please call me! I'm a mess right now and I need to speak to you!

I called back about twenty minutes later and wasted a good hour of my (already short) working day talking to her and getting frustrated at her self-pity bullsh*t. She said the 'moment had passed' as if, because I hadn't called back the very minute she was 'a mess', it was my fault she wasn't now opening up.

I should say I think her being 'a mess' was in part a result of my 180. She can't cope when I sideline her, keep interactions to a minimum etc. She just doesn't understand what's going on (NOT that that's the point - I do know).

Later that day we took DS to his club after school where we were informed the OM had now put in an official request to join (I think I told you that we are moving away from the old club and the OM) but that he'd been turned down as the club is full. The good thing is the lady telling us is a friend and knows about the A, and they want our son at their club. Hopefully he'll give up very soon, if he hasn't already. The fact we're moving to this club permanently (meaning the Saturday morning too) has been out in the open since last Saturday so I'm sure - with or without my WW actually telling him - he's got the message by now.

We barely spoke on the drive home, or once home (this has been the usual pattern for our evenings over recent weeks. I've had so many baths I must be the cleanest BS on SI

On Wednesday I (again) picked up WW on the way to picking DS up from school, as we were invited to a 'tea party' in the school garden and she wanted to take him to an open-air pool after (it a was lovely & hot summer's day again). I was niggly and I think I argued (I say 'I' as I don't recall her saying much back - she kind of took it for once and didn't retaliate) with her most of the way to the school. Can't remember the specifics but I could have a good guess. At the school I just got out of the car and walked on ahead. I'm pretty sure it was noticed by at least one other parent. Anyway, we enjoyed the kids songs and cakes they made etc, and DS was pleased to see us. At the pool we bumped into a friend from school (her boy is DS's best friend) who sat down with me for a chat. I could just tell she knew something was up. I - stupidly, you may say - kept it to money worries and work. But people are not stupid.

I guess I was in a bad mood (all week) as I knew Thursday (spending the day together to deal with things) was going to be a waste of time. We had a bit of a row that night and I told her to forget it so Thursday morning I took DS to school but I confess I was hoping in vain she'd text me to say, 'come on, let's not waste this opportunity. I really want to work things out', but of course that text never came. I called her. Another mistake, I know. I tried to put the opportunity back on the table but, again, I let my anger come out. Then again, if her response had been more positive, it probably wouldn't have. I went to work.

I received the following (edited as it was a long one):-

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hang up on you! ... You're right about me not dealing with this ... I can't stand you constantly attacking me, I feel I can't be in the same room as you right now because of it. We both know what happened and it should be about how we move forward. I'm sorry I've hurt you, that makes me feel like shit that I've caused all this pain and suffering. I feel awful that this will somehow impact on our beautiful son I want to try I really do, but I can't begin to tell you how messed up I feel from it all. And it is about my feelings too, how can I help you when I can't help myself right now???

Then...

I came in to speak to you last night as I just wanted you to hold me close and tell me everything will be alright! You were asleep though and I didn't want to wake you up, so I went to bed and cried myself to sleep. I know I don't deserve your patience, trust or support. But I really NEED you! You are stronger than me and I said before how amazing I think you are [+ blowing kiss smiley]

I didn't reply to either.

We wasted Thursday, which just added to my resentment. I tried to suggest we did something yesterday but my WW rejected that idea - to be fair, with some justification - we had an end-of-term school assembly first thing plus she had the fracture clinic (for her hand) late morning. We ended up being together most of the morning and managed to walk around the hospital talking sensibly for once. I went home to try to work from there (there was little point driving to work by now) for a bit. Got a few things done then was pleased when my WW called me saying she was done, as I'd half expected her to wander into town as she would've done a few weeks ago. I went back and got her. We went for lunch and again managed to discuss things like grown-ups, and some progress was made.

So, as it stands, my WW has suggested we do what we should have done on Thursday on Monday. Whilst things have been vastly improved between us, I'm well aware (as she is) that NONE of my requirements of her have been met (if she hasn't seen the OM in weeks, then it feels like 'by default' rather than as a result of my demand for NC). So I need to re-think what I need from her so I can put it to her one more time.

I'm well aware what I'm enduring right now. I KNOW this isn't anything like R. Don't worry about that. I feel a million miles from even the starting line. I know this could be hoovering on a grand scale, and it's very, very easy to get sucked in. I've stepped way back from the abyss over the last two or three weeks but I know I could be back there the blink of an eye.

But I do believe my WW wants us to stay together. I do. I just severely doubt she is strong enough to do the work necessary to get us to R. Then I guess I will know what that last solicitor meant with her analogy of waiting for a London bus that you realise is never going to come...

P.S. Again, please don't get frustrated at my inaction. Maybe my tale of living in limboland will help someone else. Putting it here helps me, anyway.

The most important thing is that you seem to be getting detached. That is the key. Work on your codependence.

I have no doubt that your WW wants to stay married. She just wants to have no repercussions for her affairs and of course the ability to have some more if need be.

Look, I need to remind you there is no wife #1. You still are in denial here. She probably had affairs in 1999. So really the wife you have now is the one you always had. She was just better back then at hiding parts of herself. Youth helps one to do that.

That has been a hard on for me to deal with. I look back at my whole marriage and I see the same broken crap back then that I have now. And I suffered a lot of pain then that I was in denial about all these years. I could have been so much more happy. But a lot of that is my FOO issues....why I accepted so little.

Keep on detaching...180...

Your WW wants you to either fix this or forget it.

She is unable or unwilling to realize that the burden of 'making things right' rests on her shoulders.

She is not Hoovering you so much as engaging in manipulative tactics in a subtle effort to blameshift and control the outcome. The whole paragraph that starts with her apology for hanging up on you (she hung up on you, really????) contains so much self-pity and "you need to stop being sooo mean to me"'s that it feels as if you're dealing with a teenager instead of a grown woman who's done wrong.

told me she felt it wasn't specifically the A that she felt needed dealing with, but the whole 'bigger picture'. I took that as meaning her life, going back at least into her teens.

While I don't know the entire context of your conversation, usually when an unremorseful WS refers to dealing with the 'bigger picture', it's code for talking about what the BS has done *wrong* in the marriage that made the cheating necessary (in the WS' mind, anyway).

Your WW has been talking a lot about going to IC but not actually *doing* anything about it -- and I strongly doubt that she will do anything about it on her own, as evidenced by this statement from her:

And it is about my feelings too, how can I help you when I can't help myself right now???

The best way for her to *help* you right now is to help herself. However, she's using you as a scapegoat.

I tried to recover my marriage while dealing with a WS who displayed a LOT of the same attitude and tendencies as your WW is showing. Some of the interactions you've described are carbon-copies of conversations/exchanges that occurred in my house -- almost word-for-word. Since he's now my stbx, my efforts were obviously futile. However, that is only because I finally reached my limit (well, and he started actively cheating again) and threw him out and filed for divorce. If *I* hadn't been the one to 'get active', I'm sure that we would be in the exact same holding pattern/limbo -- having the same exact conversations over and over with no real results.

You will handle this and make decisions on your own time. You are the one who is present in your life and you know what is possible right now and what isn't. You have taken and are taking small steps to rectify your situation. Also, every time your WW makes one of her self-pitying, *fix it for me* statements -- it pushes you one more step away from her instead of drawing you closer.

You'll get this figured out, saveus, just hang in there and keep moving forward.

I agree with MCJack, forget about wife#1. If you knew the entire truth most likely, you wouldnt be saying that. Also, wife#1 is the messed up person who is doing this crap now. Either she gets her mental problems figured out or you will always have wife #1.

I get comments like, 'Don't tell me what I'm thinking! You don't know what's going on in my head!'

I used to get those comments as well, and my response was, "How can I know what your thinking when everything out of your mouth is a lie".

Your wife is doing nothing at all. She is talking a lot without saying anything meaningful.

Your wife might have been out with some guy Monday night, otherwise why in the hell would she call you at work telling you she is a mess.

Something I learned years ago, whenever my fWW would feel the most guilt or show me more affection, it was out of guilt about something she recently did.

Of course hindsight is 20/20, a lot can be learned looking back. And thinking back to the times she acted certain ways, I can pretty much tell when she did something that made her feel guilt by the way I remember her acting towards me.

Her self pity party needs to end right now.

No WS has the right to go out whenever they feel like it and walk in at all hours of the night, hell no.

You did not mention, did you call your friend and ask him why he called your wife. If you do not do that right now, you will regret it in the future. Just one more thing you will never know.

If you wait much longer, it just wont matter. You need to get in front of all of these things. You cannot be afraid of the truth, because sooner or later it will come back to bite you. You might as well know it today, on your terms than to find out later. And I mean years later when it is too late to do anything about it.

Thanks for the replies. I'll respond to any questions later if you don't mind.

For now, last night. We'd been invited to the new club we're joining (or rather our DS is) for their Presentation Evening.

Everything felt 'good' late afternoon/early evening (or as good as it can currently be). I felt up for it and, despite being tired yesterday, DS was looking forward to it too.

Everything was going fine until WW came back from the buffet, went to the bar instead of sitting down at a table with DS and I, and got talking to a guy from the club. For - I'd say - heading on for an hour.

At one point DS and I popped out to get some cash from a cash machine down the road. I text my WW. She didn't even notice we were gone.

It set the tone for the rest of the evening. That combined with the fact that we were down to our last £30, which I watched my WW merrily convert into glasses of wine.

I stuck to 'good dad' role, looking after DS who, by about 8pm, could have happily gone home and been tucked up in bed. WW, from my perspective at least, wasn't putting him first. I played a game of air hockey and pool with him. Yes, he was perfectly safe running off with his friends but - what my WW didn't see or chose not to - he was really tired and getting teary over the smallest of things. Maybe I baby him too much (as if my WW doesn't do the same when she's not drinking/putting her social life first) but, quite frankly, I felt a bit of a spare part and so preferred to be where I was wanted/needed. What does this say about me? I'm not sure.

On the drive home (way after 10pm), WW was looking for a fight. I should have resisted better but it was impossible and we ended up arguing in front of our beloved boy. Her view was I was rude, didn't mingle enough with the people at our new club, didn't say goodbye etc, and that she had done precisely nothing wrong. She didn't, I guess, except YET AGAIN fail to see when I was in need and show me SOMETHING. ANYTHING. A glance/smile in my direction. Ask me if DS was OK. Introduce me to someone she was talking to (turns out the guy at the bar is very influential in the club/sport etc - not that that's the point). She has pretty much NEVER introduced me to anyone in our entire relationship. She says that's just not her style (whatever that means).

All she took from our bickering was that I was saying she could never talk to any man ever again. (This completely ignoring the fact that the last OM was an instructor at our DS' last club, so seeing her talking to another guy last night in similar circumstances was a bit of a trigger). And that I was being irrational. Maybe I was - but it was the total absence of any understanding or empathy that was the real problem.

At home I tried to explain myself more clearly and it descended into disaster quickly. I lost my cool and tipped a bunch of books and other stuff over. Took some 'romantic'/wedding pictures off the wall (but didn't damage them). When she picked some stuff up and threw down some old CDs of mine, saying something she thought would annoy me, I thought it sensible to smash them against the wall to show - in my mind - that I couldn't give a sh*t about material possessions right now. It's our LIVES I want to save.

I know. I promised myself (and you all) we'd never plumb those depths again. I feel wretched again and have been awake since 4am. (On a plus side, I read How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair from start to finish).

We were going to try to make some progress tomorrow but I wonder right now if we can and also doubt my WW has even remembered making the suggestion.

I'd love my WW to read that book. I'd love her to post in the Waywards section on SI (but, right now, I think it's more important I keep this place to myself). But I really don't see either happening anytime soon

Feel like throwing up...

Just discovered more inappropriate texts... This time with a 17 (?) year old BOY and also with a FRIEND (OK, close acquaintance) of mine (ours) - both from our son's Saturday club (which we're leaving)... Note not everything is recoverable by the look of things hence the 'gaps' in the conversation...

TO/FROM 'FRIEND':-

Look, please stick with me, I'm lost and don't know which way to turn... We're supposed to be talking tomorrow. I don't know how I'm not going to confront my WW about these texts today, but I know I mustn't. Apart from anything else, it appears she doesn't text anybody these days so I think it's safe to say she's gone underground with EVERYTHING she thinks I can snoop on, and has other ways of contacting people (Facebook etc).

Tell me one more time. How should I deal with tomorrow??? I want to tell her to come clean one last time or there's the door. But I tried that before. Even the threat of D is brushed off (and I only stoop to that as a last resort, out of desperation). I WANT HER TO GET WHAT THIS IS DOING TO ME!!! I WANT HER TO CARE AND BREAK DOWN IN SOBS, SHOW ME THAT THERE IS SOME REMORSE IN THERE!!!

Then, how we deal with all this crap I have no idea. But IC, obviously.

Please. Help.

[This message edited by saveus at 5:33 AM, July 20th (Sunday)]

Messaged you

saveus - i'm sorry, but I don't know what else to say. your problem is you're a doormat. you take absolutely anything she does to you. you have no dealbreakers. she can treat you like shit and you will stay and hope that she treats you better.

I WANT HER TO GET WHAT THIS IS DOING TO ME!!! I WANT HER TO CARE AND BREAK DOWN IN SOBS, SHOW ME THAT THERE IS SOME REMORSE IN THERE!!!

she's not going to. why would she? you don't do anything.

please read this carefully: people will not respect you unless you respect yourself.

i'm not trying to be cruel but you don't show any self respect. you show weakness. bad people will take advantage of that. she's taking advantage of that.

then she throws you a crumb, a text that says "i know, we need to talk about this, i'm just so broken." blah blah and then she gives a guy in a pub a blowjob in the bathroom. and then she texts you, "if you just treated me nicely we'd have a chance. i don't want to divorce." and then she goes out drinking all night with another guy.

and i have to say another thing. I think that the people who are bucking you up and telling you that you're doing a great job here are actually harming you. they're enabling you to be weak and abused. i know how they feel. i feel badly for you too and i want to encourage you. i want to help you get better. you're a kind man. a good man.

but there is one thing of which i am absolutely certain, you will not get better until you get rid of your wife.

[This message edited by mike7 at 3:49 AM, July 20th (Sunday)]

@mike7: Thanks my friend. Always grateful.

So, pathetic as I may sound, help me come up with a plan for tomorrow's talks (IF they happen - she's already made one excuse this morning)!!!!!

Seriously, I know I've been told over & over but I've long since realised how woefully inadequate my responses to my WW are - or rather that that's the problem, I always respond...

Without threatening instantaneous D, I still fail to see HOW to law down the law in the way I KNOW must be done.

The only chance is to get my WW when she thinks things are 'better' between us & doesn't feel attacked.

My God, it's not the SEX that's killing me inside, it's the aftermath & realising I am not equipped to deal with this. That's hard to admit.

Just realised mike7 I didn't read to the end of your post. You're probably right - well, you are in that I KNOW I could be far happier than this - but I still cling to the hope of R. She says a lot of things in the heat of an argument. I don't know what to believe any more but I'm telling you much of it is BS. That doesn't make her a nice person right now or our relationship salvageable but it does make me want to get us to the starting line at least, to see if R was ever possible. For my own sanity & so I know I can look my DS in the eye one day and know I did everything I could. Irony of ironies, I know, because all you guys see is inaction...

that's the problem Saveus. you still care what she thinks. you still want to save the marriage.

you can't

there is nothing you can say to change her. there is no special timing that will cause her to suddenly see what she is doing. it's not going to happen. if she ever wakes up, it will be "after" the divorce.

you need to file for divorce. you need to stop talking to her immediately.

she is really, really, far gone.

this is the key Saveus. stop caring what she thinks or does. she doesn't matter.

divorce her. and here's the funny thing, you don't lose. she does. you don't lose anything. she loses a good man.

so.... stop trying to convince her to save her family. it's not going to happen.

Your wife is an abusive, serial cheater.

She has NO remorse.

You may want to save this marriage, want her to reach remorse,etc,etc...but she isn't going to do it.

The only person you can control is YOU.

Your son lives in a war zone. If you think he doesn't know..you're lying to yourself. He may not tell you he knows..most likely because he is scared and confused..and doesn't know what's *really* going on..just that mommy and daddy yell, throw things, and mommy has a temper. I wonder, what is going to happen to your son when she loses it on him?

The 17 year old? Im not sure how old your ww is..but a 17 year old boy..is a kid. Of course, Im 42. But 17 is a child,IMO. Your ww is being sexually inappropriate with a minor. What kind of person does that? I would never even consider it. I might notice he's a cute kid...KID. But flirting like that?

Nothing will change until YOU change them. Saveus..have you considered your WW might wake the fuck up once you stand up and tell her..and show her..you won't allow this anymore? Try it.

Im sorry if I sound harsh. Please know my comments are made out of concern.

ETA: Oh..and a not so gentle 2x4...wth are you thinking? Getting in a fight with her where you knock things over and throw things? She is going to call the police and have you arrested eventually. Don't give her ammunition.

[This message edited by confused615 at 6:27 AM, July 20th (Sunday)]

Sorry for the new texts you have found. But really, its just more of the same from your wife.

Gentle, or maybe not, 2 x 4. You MUST stop the fighting in front of your son. You MUST. This is more damaging to him than you can imagine. As hurt as you are right now? You're an adult. For him it's so much worse. You can't help what his mother does but you can decide not to further injure him with your words and actions. Do not engage with her in front of him. And don't take down photos, etc, until you separate.

Please put him first. I feel like by staying with her, you are both destroying that child.

What is this *talk* you keep speaking of?

If it is a talk scheduled just between the 2 of you, then blow it off.

I WANT HER TO GET WHAT THIS IS DOING TO ME!!! I WANT HER TO CARE AND BREAK DOWN IN SOBS, SHOW ME THAT THERE IS SOME REMORSE IN THERE!!!

Dude, you should be realizing by now that ^^^this is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

Her behavior at the club *should* be the straw that breaks your back. Seriously.

She showed complete disregard for your son and for you.

All she cares about is herself, so put her outside your circle. Your circle now consists of only you and your DS. If he is tired and needs to go to bed, then you tell that money-wasting, wine-guzzling, chatting-up-other-men woman that you are married to that it is time to leave because DS has had a long day and needs to go home. And then you leave....with her or without her.

Shut her out. Right now it is only about what is good and necessary for you and your DS. *She* is no longer a variable.

Saveus

Sounds to me that your wife has already picked out her next conquest at the new club bar. it will i am sure be a re run of all the others.

I am going to go out on a limb here and offer you some advice that i will probably get blasted for by others, but I see no reason to give you any more advice like everyone else because you just can't do any of it, which is entirely your decision. You are on a merry go round and you just cannot jump off.

Instead of reading books on infidelity, which your wife is an expert at already, you might consider starting to read about non monogamous lifestyles like polyamory. You are already in an open marriage, and you just cannot do what is necessary to change any of it. You might be better served learning how others cope and accept their spouses having relationships with others. i think they call it "compersion'. perhaps if you told her you accepted her for who she is and will accept her dating life without any more arguing or fighting, it might be a safer environment for your son and less stressful for you. she might even love you more for not fighting with her about it anymore.

Right now, she goes out when she wants, comes home when she wants, has sex with who she wants, screams at you when she wants, and nothing happens except misery.

i am not saying i think that is the best thing, but in your case, until you can feel the time is right, you might get a lot less hurt and stress in your life if you could get advice from others who accept and condone these relationships.

your wife is not going to stop doing what she is doing based on your current strategy. There comes a time when you have to switch strategy, and maybe she will meet someone she falls in love with and leave you in peace, or you might also find someone since you will also be allowed to date.

Again, not the first choice, but we now have 45 pages of posts that all say same thing with the same results.

I am not trying to be hurtful to you. i have quite a few thank you for my advice from members. i just wanted to give you and alternate option.

First option should be to be strong and do what you need to do as been advised here though.

BadHurt, harsh, definate 2x4, don't think it will help though. Saveus is afraid, scared, terrified.

Like a car crash on grounds hog day, he sees the crash coming but is still asking how to protect himself. The seat belt is in reach, it will probably minimize the harm but still wont reach.

What exactly are you afraid of? Her? Living your life? Weren't you once single before you met her? How did you live your life then? What is your deal breaker, once you know she doing it right under your nose?

What are you trying to save? If you can't save her, what about yourself? Your kids. Your sense of worth?

Saveus

Not trying to really give you 2X4. You've had enough of those.

Just trying to give you an alternative that might make your ordeal easier for you.. I am sure i am like many others who cringe reading the pain you are going through with each episode, knowing it will not end.

Someone just said correctly. You were SAVEUS before you met her, and were happy. You can be that again.