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@blindsided14: I'm not sure how to answer that but I couldn't let it pass without at least acknowledging your well-intentioned offer.

Finances ARE a problem - that CAB solicitor I saw wasn't just some freebie CAB lawyer (as implied elsewhere), in fact her law firm is by far and away the most expensive I've spoken to, and she made by far and away the best impression on me - but rest assured I would not let my poor finances prevent me from filing. I'd find a way.

So, thank you for the very generous offer - the thought is appreciated but it is NOT just money that is stopping me. I am CHOOSING not to file right now, rightly or wrongly.

Hi saveus. Haven't posted to you in a while but wanted you to know that you still have my support and I'm still following your thread. I just don't have anything to add that the other's haven't already said. Not frustrated at all. I feel for you brother. And of course that son of yours too.

Hi Saveus,

I‘m going to confess to not having read all of this thread. Firstly because I think others are saying more or less what I would suggest and secondly I get the feeling you really aren’t ready to follow the tough advice being offered. And frankly – that’s totally your call and your prerogative.

What I do want to offer is some down to earth practical advice regarding divorce.

First of all: Getting an expensive, high-profile lawyer might only make sense if there are assets to save. Things like a debt-free house, an inheritance, stakes in a company, exceptionally high pension… Other than that then division of assets and even custody tends to fall into a relatively clear pattern.

IF this goes to D then it won’t be the first D your attorney, the court, the judge, your WW attorney and all participants take part in. The only newcomers are you and your WW. Ask an attorney and he will tell you that a disproportionate amount of their time is spent arguing over issues that they already more or less know the outcome of and issues that really shouldn’t be argued over.

I recall an interview with an attorney who told of a couple that spent in excess of 10,000 arguing over a 500 lawn-mower. This despite both attorneys repeatedly advising their clients to settle with a coin-toss or some quicker, cheaper method.

So now – for the time being – do research.

Read all you can about divorce in your state.

Get as clear a picture of your finances and debts as possible.

Get copies of your tax report from the year you married.

Calmly evaluate your situation. If there is debt then why, how and when was it generated? IF there are assets then how, why and when was it generated? What is a fair division? What is an equal division?

Same with custody. What can you expect? What can you be realistic about?

Get all this lined up and chances are you can use more or less any competent attorney.

Saveus, continue to stay on here since I think it is about the only thing keeping you from going nuts. You need someone to talk to and your wife will never listen to your side of things.

My only advice now is to continue to snoop, watch and pay close attention to what she does. You also need to keep your own diary of events. Everyone she calls, who calls her, when she is out all night, when she comes home drunk etc.

You very well could need these facts later on.

I also advise you to steer clear of any arguments with her. There is no point to arguing with her. If she wants to talk like a mature adult fine, but the instant she starts blameshifting, yelling or worse, you just walk away. Do not get drawn into a fight with her.

Bigger is right, as usual. Do not argue over trinkets. Only the lawyers benefit. You don't need the modern Blackstone/sir Edward Carson for your impoverished divorce.

What you need is ACTION. You are the ne plus ultra of dithering and hand wringing.

Think about your son, not your serial cheater wife.

Your marriage,,if it can be called that, is over. WW checked out long ago. All,she waits for during her quiet times is another AP to strike her fancy. Still hasn't told you about 1999 has she?

Saveus - I get it, you aren't ready to take the leap yet.

But when you have had enough, and you do, you need to be fully prepared to protect your son, and yourself. For that reason, you need to absolutely document your wifes behaviors. Especially her drinking and her violent outbursts. Even if your country favors the moms when it comes to custody, I have to believe they would favor the stable sober, non violent parent more. Your son needs at least on parent that is strong, safe, and normal. Looks like that is going to have to be you.

((((and strength))))

Saveus, I disagree that you have not made progress. I think you are doing unbelievably well for being just 9 weeks out. Its a lot to process and adjust to. Bravo for hanging in there and for being a great dad. I have been following your story from the beginning and STRONGLY disagree that you are not making progress and are running in circles. I think you have made tremendous progress and are doing amazingly well given your situation. The decisions you are currently making have life long ramifications not only for yourself, but for your son as well. Of course you are going to take time in making them.

People process trauma in many different ways, and people often believe that their own individual way is the best/only way because its the only way they know. Oftentimes it appears on the outside that we are stuck, when in reality our hearts, minds & souls are making the necessary adjustments we need. Progress is being made in leaps and bounds, just not visible progress.

Its kinda like jumping off a cliff. Some people take running leaps, some look over the cliff before jumping, and others inch their way slowly down, hanging on for dear life. We all get to the bottom in the end, and are changed and refined in the process.

Once we get to the bottom we all find that there is a long arduous journey up to the top of the next mountain before we can enjoy the view. Those that take running leaps off the cliff often land with a splat, and then need time healing before beginning the long, arduous journey up the next mountain to a happy future. Those that inch their way down may take longer but typically find they don't need the healing time to begin the climb up. We all usually wind up in the same place, we just have individual and different ways of getting there. The trick is not getting stuck along the way, and supporting each others own individuality. And, when we reach the bottom we cannot forget that we now need to claw our way back to the top to enjoy the view.

Saveus, since finding out about your wife you have:

1) continued to be an amazing dad who is active and present in your sons life.

2) Confronted your wife.

3) Have begun to emotionally & physically adjust to a wife who doesn't seem to want to reconcile.

4) Are emotionally & intellectually processing the idea of divorce.

5) Have spoken with 2 different solicitors about divorce.

6) Have dealt with the police.

7) Are implementing the 180 to the best of your ability (and yeah, its hard, really hard, and not fun).

8) Have dealt with TT and are processing the ramifications of each new possible betrayal.

9) Are trying to find ways to financially move forward with a divorce whilst continuing to provide for your son.

10) Have continued to go to work every day and provide for your son.

Saveus, that's a whole lot of action, and a tremendous amount of progress. Well done. Not only that, you have done all of it when its the last thing on earth that you want to do, when what you really want isn't happening, and it sucks. You deserve a big pat on the back, mate, because it is hard, damn hard, all of it.

Lostly, that was an awesome post. Thank you!

I think saveus has received some pretty harsh words and frankly it shocked me a bit when I saw his thread upon returning to SI after years away. When I first came to SI ten years ago, the community had much more patience for how long it can take to come to terms with infidelity.

When I first came to SI ten years ago, the community had much more patience for how long it can take to come to terms with infidelity.

Not to tj this...but I agree. When I came back, I was shocked to see the divorce immediately attitude of so many. A lot less patience than 10 years ago.

SaveUs, I do hope you continue to check in here as a sounding board or a place to vent.

I disagree. Violence is part of this equation. We've always been consistent that there's no excuse for violence toward your spouse, regardless of gender. That's what makes this a little more of an urgent matter.

Of course, we're still here for support in any case, whether it takes a few weeks or a few years to find the right path.

Exactly it. The 'file for D' advice people were giving Saveus was based on her continued behaviour....which was getting more and more erratic, and was turning violent.

Filing for D doesn't preclude R, it merely forces his W to realise that her actions have consequences. At any rate, Saveus won't be able to R with a WW who is showing no signs of remorse....no one could.

We're not really arguing at the moment. I've become much better at letter little things fly right over my head. They have been fewer & further between, but possibly just because I have spent less time 'attacking' my WW (from her perspective).

The 180 is VERY, VERY hard though when often all I want is some comfort/love from the very person I am trying to detach from, and who is still causing my pain. (Don't tell me again - I know the 180 is for me).

I'm still in (self-inflicted) limbo. I want to give her some time to just watch. But at the same time I know I have failed to so much as get her to commit to me - she will say she's committed 100% but her actions don't match her words. For example, she hasn't followed up on her suggestion re seeking IC. And she certainly still hasn't made that NC phone call, with me present.

I have tried and tried and tried to FORCE her to commit to me there & then - I have pointed out it shouldn't take a millisecond to decide. I'm obviously very unconvinced.

She hasn't been out as much. Not really any disappearing acts. No more all-nighters. But she has been out into town many, many days (most?) and, whilst she has owned up to coping through alcohol (a quite surprising immediate admission, with no defensiveness) she is still drinking during the day. Not to excess maybe but enough to worry me, her mum, and at least one friend (all of whom noticed independently of each other).

She's opened up a lot about what happened to her in her distant past - the event she supposedly confided in the names on that list about back in 1999. (I'm still sceptical about the list but not that something happened). She's even discussed doing something about it (research on the internet/even contacting the police). All this has the ring of truth to it (and she has my full support) though I can't help but feel slightly resentful she's more willing to put effort into that than into our M right now. Possibly unfair as there may be a (tenuous) link from one to the other, but it feels like another distraction if I'm being honest.

Anyway.

Last Thursday (think it was) I went for a drink with my best friend - the one who admitted to kissing my then girlfriend (now my WW) around 2000/2001. Long story short - he was quite sheepish, ashamed and very remorseful. He tried to explain how bad he felt, how time passed and he got caught up in that age-old dilemma over telling me. All very difficult for me after what I've learnt here over the past twelve weeks. Of course I'm talking about TT. My WW embellished the story that he came round a few days later to ask her not to tell me. But then what and who to believe any more?? On the subject of the other friend who supposedly has called my wife, he tried to help explain it from every angle but of course no-one can, except maybe that friend. I haven't dealt with him yet as I frankly have no idea how to. Enough doubt has been cast on my snooping (possibly more manipulation) and - understandably I think - I don't want to ruin a friendship I've had for 30 years. This is not being swept under the carpet though - it's on my mind and I will deal with it.

On Tuesday we informed the sports club our son goes to that we do wish to take up their offer of a place there (for the main Saturday morning club). I struggled with this as I wanted to get away from the OM but wanted to put my DS first. Yes, I get the irony (so put those 2x4s away for a minute). I am protecting my son BY moving. Anyway, it's done. The season ends in two or three weeks then, from September, we'll be away from the OM.

One fly in the ointment though - for the first time in ages he decided to put in an appearance. From what I've learnt since, it looks like to collar the lady that runs the Tuesday club (rather than contact the club directly) about getting HIS kids in, as she used to be at the Saturday club we (us and the OM) are still at. He was on his own, no kids. No chance he didn't realise we - or rather my WW - would be there. I'll say one thing though - I may be able to control myself but I don't shy away and that man cannot look me in the eye. He hung around like a bad smell. My WW did OK in the circumstances but, all things considered, I couldn't help but think things were still 'off'.

Anyway, the club have told him - as things stand anyway - there is no place for his kids. Fingers crossed that's it - and that when he finds out we are moving there (this morning - unless my WW has already told him of course) he will give up and stay where he is.

---

A few personal responses:-

Thank you annanew for the compliment. I may be weak but I know I'm both a good dad AND person - not perfect but who is?

Thanks yearsofpain25 for the note of support.

@Bigger - good to see you again. I only mentioned that solicitor being expensive as someone a page or two back implied they might be a freebie (not their word) CAB lawyer with a deskful of other Ds - I was pointing out it was quite the reverse. They happen to give free time at the CAB once a month but are quite independent. I wasn't saying that expensive lawyers are necessarily better - or needed - and I take your point about assets. Thanks.

@Lostly: Thank you! I know others aren't being cruel (and that you aren't just seeing my situation through rose tinted glasses either) but I needed to hear that. I feel in limbo but at the same time that I've had just under 12 weeks to process all this. 12 weeks out of my 38 years/15 year relationship/7 year marriage. I don't think I've done great, I haven't, but I've handled this the only way I know how.

@annanew/craig2001/Red Sox Nation: Re D and patience on this board, to be fair to annanew I also have the feeling D was on the table very early on, way before any mention of violence (but of course I appreciate why and that violence changes things).

No more all-nighters. But she has been out into town many, many days (most?)

There will be more all-nighters. Do you know exactly where she is during these days. Also, if money is so tight, someone is buying her the alcohol. Alcohol, bars and being bought drinks usually means one thing.

I haven't dealt with him yet as I frankly have no idea how to.

You call him and ask him why he called your wife. There is no other way around this. He knows he called your wifes phone number, he knows your wifes phone number is different than yours. He could not confuse the two.

How long did your wife talk to this friend? Anything put on the back burner will not get done. Because something else will come up.

I dont understand why your wife would call the cops about something that happened 15 years ago.

Until she gets real mental help, she is playing you, she is stalling. And the question is, stalling for what?

Hi Craig, well of course it's crossed my mind the OM could be funding my WW but on the other hand, she does earn her own money (albeit a fairly modest amount). Plus friends have apparently been generous as they know our financial situation.

Re the friend problem, of course you are quite right. I guess I am just doubting the evidence - only his NAME appeared, not number, if you follow my line of thought. I wouldn't want to wrongly accuse him of anything plus this gives any denial plausibility. But I will just have to bite the bullet, I see that.

There was one (incoming) call one evening that lasted eight minutes.

As for my WW calling the police, this wouldn't be about something that happened 15 years ago, more like 30+. If you recall, 1999 was about a list of names. People she said she'd confided something in. And presumably you're not saying crimes from decades past can no longer be reported. Anyway, we shall see. Like many other things with my WW, nothing may well come of this.

As for your friend, dont tell him only his name showed up. Dont tell him crap, just ask him why he called and talked to your wife?

Is there any reason in the world why this guy would be calling your wife?

Your wife continues to talk in riddles and partial truths about the past and the present. You will have a life of TT.

So she spends every dime she makes on drinking, that isnt good, obviously. Plus, people that are drunk usually dont make very good decisions.

There will be another all nighter. She could use her gay guy friend as an excuse anytime. Maybe you should hide a gps tracker in her shoes.

Does her phone have a gps in it? If so, use it.

Savues - How goes the battle?

Hi craig2001. Thanks for asking.

I'm still in self-imposed limbo so feel the same about posting here - there's not much else anyone can say, hence my lack of updates.

Please read this keeping in mind my state of mind right now. I have been on a bit of a downhill slope on the rollercoaster. I realise how co-dependent and pathetically needy much of this sounds. I'm just trying to be honest.

I don't know, it's... OK. Or, truthfully, living hell to OK. The frustration I feel towards my WW is at times overwhelming. On the up side, things generally have improved - from the very lowest point, admittedly. I am NEVER going back there.

I've tried to implement the 180 for the last couple of weeks (not wholly successfully). I've felt better AND it's been noticed by my WW (although not always in a positive way). But then I've had some major wobbles, giving into temptation to seek the love & support from my wife that I crave.

I've had texts expressingly undying love. I've had others highlighting the self-pity my WW is still wallowing in ('I'm such a BITCH' etc). I've had small signs that she might just 'get it' after all (at the risk of incoming 2x4s, if I didn't believe she did, I wouldn't still be putting myself through this). But then she'll blow it with a ridiculous wayward bit of thinking like...

'I never actually hid anything from you'

or

'You are right, I did think our marriage was over, what reason did I have to believe you still loved me?'

When I've (misguidedly) text her trying to appeal to my 'real' wife, I either get no reply or, as one day last week, 'What can I say?? To any of that?'. I found myself texting back a few suggestions e.g. 'I understand what you're going through and want to help but don't know how', 'I love you and don't want to lose you', 'I worry I've caused so much damage there's no coming back', 'I'm sorry' Anything other than silence, which is what I usually get.

A few days ago, I received the following beauty:-

I feel like we've reached a brick wall now. You don't talk to me, you're rude to me and don't accept my tokens of affection leaving me wondering what exactly is left between us and what YOU want?!

An example of a 'token of affection' is holding my hand in the car or, as on this particular morning, giving me a peck on the cheek as I left for work, from which I pulled away. It just felt 'off'. Just the other evening she was more affectionate in slightly sexual way and I ignored it completely. But then, last night, when I couldn't sleep (it all just hit me again in the early hours), we ended up talking at 2.30am and being intimate - moments after discussing separating. I know, I'm a lost cause.

By taking the pressure off her, she has opened up a bit on occasion. I have an annoying habit of interrupting when I hear something I can't let pass without comment (examples above). I must learn to bite my tongue as sometimes I know I've stopped her from saying something that could just prove revelatory (if not earth-shattering). She still says so little.

Really though, the lack of pressure from me just seems to have allowed her to act normally and behave as if there's no problem - unless I prompt a conversation. Infuriating for me.

She still hasn't done an NC call or letter. I have no evidence of very recent contact with the OM but I feel sick in the pit of my stomach that the A is ongoing. Any contact, as far as I'm concerned, means it is, and I know there was contact (both ways) only a matter of a few weeks ago. But I haven't spent every waking hour worrying where she is etc, I really haven't.

But then I sit at home when she's not here (and, to be fair, her going out seems to have been curtailed a bit lately) and miss her. I know, I shouldn't. I don't (usually) do anything about missing her i.e. text her or anything. I turn to friends or SI or try to do something normal to distract myself.

She has still gone out, just not as much nor done any disappearing acts on me. A couple of times this last week I've had that sick feeling back. I know this is caused by her lack of transparency and the fact she has done almost NOTHING to reassure me in three months.

And before you ask, I've failed miserably so far in dealing with the friend contacting my wife problem. I just can't believe there's anything in it but then my WW wants me to doubt the results of my snooping. I'm scared of the answer - either complete denial (hard to disprove) or I'll find something else out that, right now, I'm not sure I can take. Ignorance is NOT bliss - I've been a BS that needs to know, but these last couple of weeks I've felt overloaded with things I'd rather not know. I guess, bizarrely whilst in some ways I've felt much stronger, I'm not coping as well as I think.

I feel the stress is going to catch up me in a bad way sometime soon. Everyone - my WW, even me - just thinks nothing sticks on me but I'm starting to think otherwise. I'm going to see the doctor this week. Not quite sure why - I have never relied on pills and don't want to start now, but maybe at least she can check my blood pressure etc.

As for WW and I, I believe (after a couple of times suggesting it and her deciding to go out with friends instead - I then gave up) we are going to spend Thursday together, to try to thrash everything out properly (yeah, I'm sceptical too but at least this time the suggestion came from her, not me).

I'm also going to chase up the counsellors I was expecting to hear back from. I need to speak to someone, whether or not my WW comes along (right now, I'd agree there is probably little point). She has, as recently as yesterday, said she'd be willing to go to counselling, either MC or IC, though she did add something about 'unless it becomes about blaming me' (I'm paraphrasing).

All this against a backdrop of other (serious) family problems, work not going very well and being pretty much skint. The pressure I'm under is enormous. I've tried to get my WW to understand this. I think she does but does a very good impression of somebody who doesn't. I think unless I keel over one day, she will continue to vastly underestimate the stress I'm under - or, as you'll no doubt tell me, she just doesn't care. I think she does but is SO wrapped up in self-preservation, admitting she's hurting me still doesn't compute in her brain. She can't allow herself to consider the enormity of what she's done.

Hey mate. Glad to hear you are still around.

I read over some of my previous posts to you and realised some of them were a bit 2x4-ish, so I hope you don't take offence; it's just that I know how stressful the affair fog is, how woefully disrespectful TT is, as well as the minimalisation that goes along with it. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, hence why when I see it happening to you, I get fired up.

To me mate, it sounds like you are still in hell, albeit rugsweeping hell. Don't worry, I've been there. Let me guess, things have calmed down, and you don't want to bring things up again in case you feel like you're going to send the whole thing back into a spiral of craziness again? Except you know there is a nagging feeling at the back of your mind that there is only a certain window to do so before it is closed possibly forever? Trust me, I know that feeling.

So where are you at with everything?

1. How's your awesome boy doing?

2. Is she still in contact with the OM? Is there anything to lead you to believe she is?

I know it sounds trite, but think of yourself from time to time and do something to keep yourself sane. I'm 7 months out and I hit a brick wall tonight myself....I made myself go and lift weights and just listen to music for an hour and it made me feel good again. Even if it is a walk around the block or a quiet pint at your local.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 8:05 AM, July 13th (Sunday)]

It's tempting to outline the process for a wayward. At one point, I printed out an e-book on reconciliation and asked my ex to read it.

You still seem convinced there's a way to wave a magic wand and she will return to the person you thought she was when you first married. Even if she is interested in reconciliation (and, obviously, at this point she isn't), you both will have a lot of work to do and your marriage will be very different.

It's not yet time for MC. That's for when it's time for both of you to work on the marriage. A good MC won't throw blame around. However, she has to accept blame for the affair itself and put herself in a different frame of mind before MC will do anything for anyone. She definitely should consider IC if she's willing.

I feel like we've reached a brick wall now. You don't talk to me, you're rude to me and don't accept my tokens of affection leaving me wondering what exactly is left between us and what YOU want?!

That isn't a text from someone who thinks there's anything wrong with having an affair. She lives in the moment. I'm not sure that your expectations with regard to an exclusive, loving marriage are realistic with this one.

Honestly, I don't think she realizes how much she has hurt you. Every day, she wakes up and it's a whole new world for her, with infinite possibilities. You have to win her. She seems very immature.

Must be exhausting. Sorry it has worked out like this. You'll know when it's time to file.

'I never actually hid anything from you'

or

'You are right, I did think our marriage was over, what reason did I have to believe you still loved me?'

She is doing nothing but blaming you, gas-lighting and not taking one tiny bit of blame.

In other words, she is not owning her own shit.

She has no business going out alone with any friends.

You are going to explode. I know your type and you are holding everything inside and finally you will explode in one way or another. And most likely, it could be a heart attack or stress related.

If nothing else, you should be eating the healthiest diet possible. Because this constant stress is bad news.

You say you don't even worry where she is at when she goes out. I don't buy that one bit. Worry is not the proper words anymore. You are so used to the worry, that you are immune to it.

What I bet you are doing is wondering and stewing.

Why the hell isnt she with you instead of constantly going out with other guys. And I dont care if the guy is gay, it is still being with other guys.

She never actually hid the truth from you.

That comment would have gotten my blood boiling, yea right, you had an affair in front of my eyes.

She never hid anything ONCE you found out about the affair, big difference.

Stop worrying about the truth and get it from your friend. It could be nothing, it could be something that makes sense, or it could be terrible.

And all you are going to do is wonder. I promise you this, when you are in your 50s, you will look back and wish like hell you had called him today and gotten the whole truth.

Because years from now, you really won't call him.

Nothing has changed there and this is your life with your forever. Nothing will change.

Do you ever just show up when she goes out to the places she says she is at. I am sure you can get a babysitter at least one time and show up where she is supposedly at.

If you are going to be afraid of the truth, than I dont know what to say. The truth is right there in front of you, and it will set your mind free from the constant wondering, guessing and imagining.

I am surprised you never really reached the anger phase. Especially with your friend calling your wife and your wife has never told you about that phone call.

Remember, you have every right in this world to call your friend and ask him outright to tell you the truth. And you have every right to know the entire truth.

Those are your rights as a human being.

She is most certainly stringing you along..Now she is making excuses for not going to IC...because she is worried it will tell her the truth about herself.