SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

but my self-esteem has taken more of a battering SINCE finding out my wife has been sleeping around

Your self worth and self esteem is also important to your son. Some day he will be old enough to understand what has happened at this time. Now it is just confusion.

Your self esteem is the same for most BH after learning what you have. The worst part for you is that it is continuing. Many times a WW does now show remorse and then it is up to the BH to do what is right.

In your situation, your wife is now texting things like she did to a 17 year old. It is getting out of control.

You are not talking to her anymore, I hope that is true, but that of course gives her more built in excuses for affairs, chatting, texting and staying out all night long with others.

No matter what you do, she will use it as a built in excuse. You could be nice, she will say you are smothering her. You could be mean and she will say you were mean to me so I got drunk, you ignore her and she says I had the next affair because you ignored her.

I don't know what is worse for your son, seeing an unhappy dad all of the time or seeing a happy dad with a new lady friend.

Kids know and they will certainly remember when they get older.

You are waiting until you are 1000% sure. Your wife has not done a thing to help heal from this. In fact she has done the opposite. She cannot even see what she did with that OM as wrong.

I think her comment to the 17 year old about you would have been my final straw, the 1000% sure.

At least take care of the things you can take care of. You cannot change her, you have to finally get that. But you can change the things causing this like your friend calling your wife or whomever calls her. You have that right to tell people to leave your family alone.

Sorry Saveus. You can't even 'SaveMe'. You especially can't save your son.

You are completely wrong in staying together for the 'sake of' your son. My parents did exactly that and it was toxic. I never forgave either of them for it. It ruined my concept of what a proper relationship was - let alone what parenting was all about.

You know what? Here is a strong 2x4: This is all about YOU. It's about your weakness. Your inability to fight for your son and your tolerance of being treated like sH**. It makes me really angry. You say that you are fed up with having these responses. Then do something positive about it. Your son won't forgive you either. He knows what's happening. Your WW will never respect you and the atmosphere will only ever get worse. You don't know your breaking point because you don't have one.

I'll probably be castigated for this response. So be it. My opinion. For what it's worth.

I will stick around until I am ABSOLUTELY, CATEGORICALLY, 1000% CONVINCED that there is nothing left - no straws to clutch, I'll admit it - that I can do to save our family. I WILL look my grown-up son in the eye one day and KNOW I could have done no more.

THAT^^^^^ has my respect. In response to your questioning

I do NOT entirely get the clamouring for divorce around here; the 'kids get over divorce all the time'; hell, even 'you can't stay together for the kids'. This last one holds the most sway for me and I generally believe it to be true.

my response is that, IMO, it is better for a child to be from a broken home than to live in one. At least there will be one parent modeling a *good* family environment.

Having said that, brother, just trying to save you from some of the pain I and my son went through. Granted, that was my experience and I wasn't in exactly your situation, but BTDT.

T/J More than once recently there has been questioning of how and why the site has changed in terms of its recommendations. I would contend that, much like life, this site *learns* and adapts from experience. As new tactics and strategies are tried, as a group, the site keeps what works and evolves. Heck, at one time(from what I've seen older members post) at one time there was a strategy that included trying to *nice* the WS back. Might be wrong about that, but it's what I've gleaned. Just my $.02. T/J

You and you alone have to live with yourself and with the decisions you make. Hugs.

Agreed

I really understand where you are right now. I felt the same way, only my WW was not only remorseless and refused to stop contacting the OM, but was insistent that she wanted a separation.

She filed, so I didn't have to make the choice you're making now.

Still, I felt it was my obligation to leave the door open until the divorce was final. By the time we got there, it was what I wanted, too, but I still left that door open until the papers were signed.

I think you're unfairly criticizing people here.

We're just saying that in your wife's current state, there's nothing you can do other than endure limbo. Since she won't file, you will have to file to end the marriage.

We're only pointing out that nothing you've posted indicates that your wife is even considering meaningful reconciliation.

Only you can judge whether the light will ever turn on for her. Like you, I hoped and hoped, but it never happened. When I hired my attorney, I asked him what my percentage chances were in saving the marriage. He said maybe 10%, probably less.

I felt obliged to hope for that 10%. Until I didn't.

As for your son... Mine was 5, too, when ex's affair began. At that age, they don't understand romantic relationships. They do understand fighting. The latter causes harm to them.

My son is now 11. All he really knows is ex with the OM and, the last three years, me with my wife. He's fine with it. Five is a good age for divorcing parents, if there is such a thing. He's fine because we didn't involve him in something he couldn't possibly understand.

Is it ideal? No. But they're far more resilient than you think when presented with a non-abusive reality.

I will stick around until I am ABSOLUTELY, CATEGORICALLY, 1000% CONVINCED that there is nothing left - no straws to clutch,

And your wife certainly seems to know this about you...

And that is what gives her all of the power in this dysfunctional dynamic the two of you have going here.

Look, I for one hesitate to advocate any particular course for any BS. That is a decision each individual has to make for themselves, and I can respect and support them whatever that decision may be.

But...

Make certain that you understand just what it is you are signing up for with that decision. Accept it and live with the consequences of that decision. And don't be surprised that, when you come here asking for advice, condolence and support with dealing with those consequences, people tend to call you out on it.

I don't necessarily think most people here are all that bothered by what decision you make one way or the other. After all, none of us know you at all. I simply think that most people here want to make sure that you aren't simply deluding yourself into thinking that the outcome of those decisions that you are making, are going to somehow be different than what they almost always inevitably end up being.

It's a subtle but important difference.

HT

Hey I don't mind you getting defensive and pissed at what I am saying. In fact that's what I'm going for. You need to step back and look at the situation for what it's worth.

I honestly and with 100% of my heart believe in attempting R in 99.5% of all situations. However when it's only one person getting it done, and the BS is continually being hurt, beaten down, and having their very soul sucked out of them, by swallowing the bitter pill of cakeeating/fencesitting then I feel the need to speak up.

You may believe that your wife is doing a decent job as a mom, but seriously????

She has committed several crimes in this process.

She has physically attacked you. Abuse is unacceptable no matter the circumstances.

She has now involved a minor, and here in good ole US of A that is a felony, and makes you a child predator. So I would really consider long and hard that there is anything this woman has to offer you, your relationship, and your son. A bad/ugly/nasty divorce is tough on a kids, but it's a hell of lot easier to deal with and get through when they are 5 and not 15.

You will do what you need to for you. And you can take my thoughts or leave em. But I hate to see someone who is capable of making changes to empower and better their lives and not do it. It hurts you and your son.

SaveUs, if your friend came to you with the exact same problems as you are facing now with your wife, what would your advice be to them.

They are asking YOU for your opinion as to what to do. What would you tell them?

I really understand where you are right now. I felt the same way, only my WW was not only remorseless and refused to stop contacting the OM, but was insistent that she wanted a separation.

Ditto for me. I still advocate filing for divorce right now, Saveus, but I understand your position. I believe it is a rationalization, but I get that too. Remember, it took me around eight months to drag myself off the floor, stand up, and walk away. Ultimately, as I believe I mentioned before, it took my children being palpably affected--in really awful ways--in front of my face before I knew that I really had done everything to save my family.

For months prior to me filing--XW had moved to her love nest (a "separation" because she "needed to grow and heal" AKA carry on her affair)--I would sob daily and my babies had to comfort me. Six and nine, they would hug me and say, "It's ok, Daddy, Mommy's coming back."

Just thinking about it gives me chills. I had NO RIGHT to let my children comfort their weeping father. Make no mistake, Saveus--your son sees it, he feels it. And it's not right. In my opinion you have done more than enough and it's time to walk away.

All the above said with sympathy and understanding.

I don't know if you "need" to divorce. That's WAY down the road. I DO think you need to file for divorce. I honestly believe that filing might push your wife into remorse.

Long term your situation is untenable. Your wife fucks other guys. That hurts you. If you want that to change then YOU need to change the dynamics. She won't change ever unless she has an incentive. She's proved that. Filing might be the incentive. Maybe. But without filing your future Is bleak.

My wife did a lot of bad stuff. Its on my profile. That's the tip of the iceberg. I just can't bring myself to update that. Its too foul. She had no remorse either. Then I pushed her off the fence - hard. Reality set it. Remorse came. I gambled that my wife was still buried inside of this alien creature. It worked for me.

I think its time to roll the dice. File. See what happens. You can always change your mind. Don't file and you prove to her she can give a bj in the club bathroom, throw it in your face, gloat about it to you, and you just accept it. That's the future unless you institute drastic changes. personally I hope it wakes her up, she gets remorse, you two do okay, and lead happy lives together.

The dice are in your hands

[This message edited by william at 4:17 AM, July 31st (Thursday)]

Good morning & thank you everyone for your responses. This one seems to have touched a nerve (and not just with me).

@hardtimesinlife: Thank you. I've always taken the 2x4s but every now and again it's nice to know I'm not necessarily getting this all wrong, and have the right to vent sometimes.

@craig2001:

I think her comment to the 17 year old about you would have been my final straw, the 1000% sure.

I assume the comment you're referring to is the 'lie back and take it' one? If so (and please correct me if I'm wrong) then that was NOT to him but to our mutual 'friend' - a guy in his early 30s (I believe). And I KNOW my WW didnt mean that literally, that's just the kind of innuendo she's always indulged in - not that that is in any way acceptable to me (now my eyes and ears are wide open).

And I DO get that I cannot change my WW. Doesn't mean, being the kind of person I am, that from time to time I don't still put myself through the mental torture of trying to 'get through' to my WW. Can't help it.

@sohowamI:

You are completely wrong in staying together for the 'sake of' your son.

You'd be completely right if that's what I said I was doing. I am putting him first before I do anything rash/irreversible, there's a difference. I will NEVER stay in a situation like this forever, for the sake of my son. I know - how long is enough, for him or for me?

@5454real: Thank you for a bit of balance. I completely agree with the broken home bit - I've heard this before and it always stuck with me. But again, jumping ship three months in, when I KNOW how pig-headed my WW has always been, how she's always REFUSED to look at herself, how she CANNOT take criticism etc etc, means that D - right now - might be a huge mistake, for both my DS and I.

@Red Sox Nation:

I think you're unfairly criticizing people here.

Quite possibly and, if so, I apologise. But my post - whilst in reply to tushnurse - was not meant as a personal attack, any more than the 2x4s I've had are. Every now and then I feel the need to stand up for myself, particularly when being told I am a poor role model for my DS.

I 100% take your point about fighting in front of our son. I promise (myself) right here and now that I will minimise the bad atmosphere to the best of my ability, all the while I am choosing for he & I to remain in this limbo.

@HoldingTogether:

And your wife certainly seems to know this about you...

And that is what gives her all of the power in this dysfunctional dynamic the two of you have going here.

Make certain that you understand just what it is you are signing up for with that decision.

All understood but I haven't made any decision yet, other than to remain in limbo - temporarily. After three months on SI, believe you me I get that the outcome is usually the same under certain circumstances and I don't believe my situation is any different. But I still reserve the right to do things my way, rightly or wrongly. Thank you for your perspective.

@tushnurse: I knew you wouldn't take it personally! And your description of one person doing all the work is spot on - or at least that's how it appears to me. I spoke to my WW late last night (I know, I know) and she cried... Now those tears do not convince me of remorse, far from it. But it does show there is a human being with emotions in there somewhere. I know, I know, I know... I guess I don't feel like I've given my particular WW enough time yet to find her true remorse and to show me she understands. Until I do...

You may believe that your wife is doing a decent job as a mom, but seriously????

Not quite sure what you're referring to here but I'm sure it's not a recent quote from me. She HAS been a great mum. She's doing loads with our DS right now, while he's on his summer holidays, while I am trying to concentrate at work. She's not been out socialising/drinking but spending quality time with our son. But that does not overshadow the huge damage she's caused our beautiful boy's precious family and home life. I'm still struggling to reconcile the two.

She has now involved a minor, and here in good ole US of A that is a felony, and makes you a child predator.

Well, splitting hairs no doubt as I find her behaviour here disgusting and very worrying, but 16 is the age of consent over here and there is no evidence anything ever happened. Things would be a lot different if I believed she'd had sex with a 17-year-old. I'm sure my WW would be horrified (in her wayward brain) if she thought I could even contemplate that possibility. I think some of you (maybe not you, tushnurse) have muddled up what was said to who amongst those texts I discovered. But granted, even a 'innocent' bit of flirting with a teenager - 20 years younger than yourself - is wholly unacceptable in an M, not to mention morally very, very suspect. I can only imagine what my WW would have made of me indulging in a bit of 'harmless' flirting with a 17-year old girl (it would never happen).

@craig2001: This is complicated now by what I've gone through. A few months ago I'd have also told you that infidelity was a cast-iron deal breaker. Obviously I didn't mean it (but I believed it at the time).

@Abbondad: Good to see you here. You know I accept your wisdom and appreciate your patience with me, even though you see me repeating your own mistakes.

@william: You are probably right but I still cannot bring myself to file. I WILL get (back) to that stage but right now is not it. I do not accept my WW's appalling behaviour nor will I live like this for the rest of my life. And I know I'm wasting weeks and months I will never get back right now. But I think I've explained elsewhere why I still feel the need to wait.

---

So, yes, I'm in self-imposed limbo and my decision to stay in this state undeniably has an effect on my DS. But, in my view, less of an effect than filing for divorce.

That's how I feel right now. But I AM capable of change. This situation feels helpless right now but is NOT set in stone.

Some of you will want to despair with me again. That's up to you and I respect your opinions - and the fact that you want the best for me and my son.

I have to - and will - live with the consequences of my actions. And I am ALWAYS considering my DS in all this. Always.

Like Abandondad I know you won't take the steps to end this craziness before something significant effects your child, and then ultimately you will realize that you have to act if only to protect him.

I also get not being ready that it isn't the right time, but I also hope that you are doing some work on you, and not letting this self imposed, soul sucking experience of limbo land continue to beat down your self esteem, and start to get strong for you and your son.

Saveus,

Actually, I have concrete proof. My XW had a daughter when I married her. She was 3 when we got together. I wasn't allowed to get custody of her. I did get custody of my son.

FF 20 years. Former SD, 3 Driving while intoxicated convictions, no steady relationship. (according to DS, she says "all men are pigs"), living with mom. DS, in university part time, full time job(he's paying his own way ) and a woman he's planning to marry that he's been with for 3 years.

XW was remarried within a year and a half(not to AP, he disappeared after he was outed in court) she went on to have two more kids with hubby 3. I waited 10 years to get remarried. I was busy providing my child with a stable environment.

Which kid turned out better?(yea, I just knocked on wood )

Strength brother

ETA clarity

[This message edited by 5454real at 8:35 AM, July 31st (Thursday)]

but 16 is the age of consent over here and there is no evidence anything ever happened

16 is the age of consent. That is somewhat confusing. 16 is the age of consent for sex with others of the same age. Not with someone over the age of 18...I believe that is how it works.

So your wife said she just lays there and takes it and a 30 year old mutual friend says you like it the easy way or whatever. So your wife is saying these things to some 30 year old guy behind your back. How often does she text or talk to this guy ?

That would infuriate me.

What is the story of your friend calling your wife. You need to ask that guy now. The longer you wait the more foolish it is going to look. You can't wait forever to ask this guy.

Just as soon as you do any kind of 180 your wife cries and you think it is about to get better, than you back off and she is flirting with other guys and the cycle repeats itself.

What ever happened with the OM, is she still talking to him. Is she still talking about him.

What ever happened to her looking for a therapist for IC.

This is the pattern that will continue forever, until you are an old man. Look at patterns.

You mentioned that she has stopped going out and drinking. For a month now. Look back at history, at patterns, certainly there has been months long periods where she hasnt gone out and then the cycle starts up again.

You can continue this miserable path really and your wife will change. Probably when she is in her 50s or 60s when she loses interest in going out with other guys.

Saveus, you are rationalizing and splitting hairs. Healthy, mature adults do not sexualize relationships with children in any way, shape, or form. Therefore, your wife is not healthy. And as you continue to expose yourself and tolerate her craziness and abuse you will become more damaged. And have no doubt, you are being abused.

If you are thinking to yourself that you owe it to your son to stay with your wife your thinking is wrong. What you owe to your son is to provide at least one stable, healthy environment that your wife will not be able to provide in her current state. You owe him an opportunity to see what a happy mature man looks like.

I understand the fear and sense of commitment you feel. But commitment does not mean you have to subject yourself to a slow painful emotional death. And as far as the fear goes, trust me on this: Removing yourself from that abusive environment comes with almost instant relief.

any updates saveus?