SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I know As are so very damaging, and I know they are the "outward symptom" of a problem. To me- that means that up until the WS CHOSE to betray their spouse- there was a problem that existed that both shared.

I realize this is a generalization I would just like to point it out. In my case my H betrayed me the first time prior to M. It had nothing to do with me, it only became my problem because I married him without knowing he was and would continue to be unfaithful. For some of us, it really is ALL about the WS and not a "we" issue that was behind the why of the A.

BTW this thread is amazing. I have cut and pasted things from almost everyones post to mull over and ponder and hopefully discuss with H at some time. Thanks to you all for sharing so much.

Grace

The is by far the best thread I have ever found here, and I've been around for a long time. So many excellent points made by everyone, not much else left to add. Syzy, firewalker, thewife and runover - all I can say is that I couldn't agree more. Perhaps what got discussed here will not change our individual lousy situations much but it least makes those of us who feel so completely stuck in these feelings realize that we are not alone or somehow defective for having them. Contrary to what some of the cute signatures say about there being no future in the past, etc. there is no erasing the history of a relationship and it boggles my mind how some can (undoubtedly honestly) say that their M have much improved after the A - not that my own H had done all that much (he promised a lot more

) but even if he had tried a lot harder, how much better could it realistically be? - I could never understand what SPECIFIC changes can be done to a M in order for a BS to feel better about it overall, to compensate for and somehow outweight what the posters in this thread have described? What else is there? The post-A loss of "glue"& feelings of unconditional loyalty to your partner, the feeling that we are now "less", and most of all that I am "less" - how do you fully heal from all this? And once this has been done to a person, does it even completely go away in a brand new, presumably successful relationship? I haven't been there but have a strong suspicion that even if some KISA took me away from the current miserable life and offered me a chance of a brand new untainted relationship, I would probably fail to function well in it also, and likely cause it to disintegrate sooner or later with my inability to trust the new partner, inability to believe that he wants me for the right reasons, and my resulting inability to invest myself 100% in the relationship. If so many people find themselves in their 2nd marriages as a result of being cheated on in their 1st ones, no wonder that the odds of those succeeding in the long run are so greatly diminished.

[This message edited by skylers_mom at 3:26 AM, August 8th (Friday)]

Thanks for this very interesting thread. We have been R for past 6m after 6m false R following 18m A which culminated in him leaving me for OW for 4m in 2007.

So many comments ring true here. Yes on the day to day level our household functions as before the A.... he claims we have a marriage like 'most' people. He never wants to talk about the A, - wants to bury it.

Yes like so many others I am left thinking is this all there is. I can't say I never thought that pre A but in the wake of an A I feel so much less inclined to compromise my life for H's.

Who knows what the future holds. I wanted R to create something better (and I suppose so that I felt OW hadn't won). Certainly don't have anything better...

3 children.... only 10 years until the youngest leaves home....

Hester

Like run, I keep getting drawn back into this thread, like it's got some hold on me.

I might always have a broken piece inside as a result of this ordeal.

Yes, ktm, I agree. To me it's like a scratch in a record (or CD for you young folks ) YOu get to a certain part of the day or week and WHAM! right back in that groove. Maybe something nudged you into that spot or it came up just in the course of life, maybe eventually it will smooth out. But hit it and "why didn't I just divorce him/her? I would have been healed by now" thought comes creeping in.

I know As are so very damaging, and I know they are the "outward symptom" of a problem. To me- that means that up until the WS CHOSE to betray their spouse- there was a problem that existed that both shared.

On the surface, I agree. It was a problem both shared, but only one of them knew what it was. My H claims it was sex missing, that's all. I was 13 weeks out from major surgery when he sought out his first prostitute...does it seem likely that a man wholly committed and in love with his wife would coolly make that choice first, rather than speak to his wife or a counselor or a friend?

And like Grace, my H cheated on me while we were engaged... we were having plenty of sex then. His reasoning then "he wanted to make sure I was the one." Excuse me???? Didn't you decide that when you asked me to marry you?

The man I married was broken from day one. I think it was only a matter of time and the lack of "opportunity" and the "proper" justification was all that kept it from happening earlier in our M. Of course at this stage, I'm not sure it didn't and he just won't own up to it. He knows he's in deep enough doo-doo that if there's a DDay 3, he knows we're done.

I can never say my M has improved since Dday. He'd gone through his OW withdrawal and was reinvested in the M when I stumbled across something out of line.

I will never, ever again think "it doesn't matter, he loves me. Our M is strong and permanent." I've lost that security. I have to "consider" my words and actions. I haven't been "me" since 2005.

And I too have a strong suspicion since he's never addressed the hole in him (and refused to look at the A time any more) that another A is in his future. He's just waiting again for the "proper" moment when Opportunity and justification meet.

I can only be secure with myself and my children. WE can make our own life without the uncertainty.

It seems pretty clear that, in general, society is far less committed to marriage as a "forever" institution than it was. That being the case, I can't think of anything more likely to kill a marriage than infidelity.

My marriage is infinitely better than it was before d-day, but that is a testament to how bad it was pre-dday and how much work we have done since. If we had had a good marriage, it would be a very different ballgame.

The spector of his affair will always haunt me, no matter what relationship or situation I am ever in. I will always carry that with me, there is no doubt in my mind about that. The reason I am still married is because we were able to make a relationship that works for both of us. If it didn't, the spector of that infidelity would probably be enough to take me out of it.

I can easily see how three years out would be the point where divorce is contemplated, since it was at that point for me where I felt like myself again -- strong enough to do what I needed to do to be happy.

I might always have a broken piece inside as a result of this ordeal.

interesting... i actually agree with this, which might be surprising to anyone who knows me here, to be someone who absolutely believes you *can* heal completely from infidelity... and i know that i have

i'm certainly happy and reconciled... but it goes without saying (for me) that there will always be that broken little piece from this experience, as there are several other broken little pieces in me i've gathered from heartbreaks and traumatic experiences throughout my lifetime... and i'm sure to gather a few more war wounds before i'm dead and gone... i'd be completely shocked if anyone ever lived there life without sustaining some sort of emotional wounds along the road, it's part of living imo

it's part of the whole tapestry (i'm recalling a very good conversation with a friend of mine quite some time ago, comparing "My Life" story with a tapestry... how our tapestry is woven throughout our lives, and there are some color changes and variations and small imperfections here and there, butat the end of your life is a complete but unique and varied and hopefully beautiful tapestry left behind

I agree with DIS, that we can heal, and carry our "war wounds", just like we carry the wounds of any other unfortunate trauma with us. Where many of us hit a roadblock with the A wound might be that we have to reinvest so highly with the willing, calculating perpetrator of that wound, and somehow try to invest, recover some sort of love, trust, and some security- where it NEVER existed before.

Pehaps, recovering from infidelity requires us to have faith and optimism in a person that we thought existed before, and this is incredibly difficult once we realize that the original thoughts were foolish. How sane does that make the current endeavor??

oh i dunno... i'm thinking back and listing in my mind all of the big damaging traumas in my past... and every single one of them there either *was* a perpetrator, or i tried to *find* one.... it's natural i think... tosearch for someone/something to lay the blame on when we have been wronged/hurt , whether it be ourselves, others, God... (sometimes a progression of searching for perpetrators, thinking specifically of miscarrying our daughter, i started with blaming myself, then H... then God... seems to me that we seem to *need* someone to be the one that holds blame, whether there is one or not... it's rather more clearcut when it comes to infidelity in that way...until time passes... then it's oh so much more complicated when you get past the WS being sole perpetrator and are healed enough to start going back over FOO and lifecircumstances and self-examination )

I know As are so very damaging, and I know they are the "outward symptom" of a problem. To me- that means that up until the WS CHOSE to betray their spouse- there was a problem that existed that both shared. Does that excuse the WS? No way. They are to blame for that choice, and the action can never be taken back. But the truth remains: there are problems present BEFORE the A. Those problems are the responsibility to both people.

Speak for yourself. If our marriage had problems, believe me I would have left the minute I discovered he cheated.

The only reason I stayed was because I knew there were no problems. I knew we had been together and happy for over 35 years. I was willing to see what would happen.

There was/is something very, very wrong with my husband, the cheater. My guess is if I remarried, it would be a successful marriage because my first one was. He probably will stay a cheater if he remarries. Though I doubt he would because he could never find a wife as good as the one he had and he knows it.

But truth asked if the BS doesn't fully commit to reconciliation after an affair, is that why we think about divorcing. I would say that is correct. And I would say it has to be. How foolish would we be to fully commit again when we know what our spouse is capable of doing. We are being smart. The reconciliation isn't working not because we don't commit fully but because we know who we're married to now.

[This message edited by Skye at 7:29 AM, August 8th (Friday)]

I hear you, DIS, huge FOO issues behind lots of this. By no means a perrfect marriage before the A.

The A happens in a tapestry of dishonesty and lies, and those are woven by a single perpatrator. Especially those professional gas-lighters.

true (imo) no one has a perfect marriage... but like skye said above... i don't feel that "we" had a shared problem... "he" had a problem that affected the "we/me"

our "we" marriage things didn't lead to an A... the "he" problems did... but shit splatters and i was standing closest

carry our "war wounds", just like we carry the wounds of any other unfortunate trauma with us

Ah, but here's the interesting part. Whenever there has been a "crime" against me, the perpetrator has been removed from my life. When my father left my mother for OW, I saw him twice a year AFTER I had kids and ONLY because they asked for him.

A "friend" of ours cheated us out of $10K in a shady business deal. We went in innocent and trusting. I haven't spoken to the man since. It took almost 20 years for my H to be able to let go and forgive the guy. I still cringe when I see his name pop up on the caller ID. I don't answer the phone. I have nothing to say to him.I was sexually harrassed by an employer... I left the job.

Does this mean I'm the cold hearted bitch? No. My mother did most of the "damage" to me. But I forgave her and loved her and cared for her during her last illness. My brother essentially left our family when my mother died. He just stopped contacting any of us.... I still call him, I make sure he's invited to all our family functions. I reach out to him. Maybe at some point down the road I'll stop trying there too.

I don't think I'm "blaming", but setting boundaries. These people are unsafe for me to be around. Stick your hand in a flame and you'll get burned.... do you blame the flame? or your own stupidity?

And I think that is a lot of why I try with my H... because I can't face my own stupidity.

with the exception of the A (and miscarriage, where there was no clear perpetrator but God/fate/circumstances/chance) i also have chosen to completely cut out any perpetrators in my life weepy... so i get that...

i don't get what you are saying about your own stupidity? i (obviously, given my choice about R) don't feel it's all black and white... always the only answer to cut everyone out, or else be coined stupid... i do take things as they come , it just so happens i have the kinda personality that means *most* of the time that means i say adios to perpetrators (even can be a little more evil than that... i have a few graves i'm gonna dance on...lol) and while R went against the grain in that manner for me, it wasn't a simple case of just cutting ties, it was much more complicated with love and history and kids and future and being invested and having expectations for possibilities in the future

the benefit outweighed the cost basically, which is completely personal and different from person to person/circumstance to circumstance

my first marriage with a similar issue i just cut it loose and never looked back, that was the right choice in that case

but weepy honey.. don't ever think you are stupid

I know As are so very damaging, and I know they are the "outward symptom" of a problem. To me- that means that up until the WS CHOSE to betray their spouse- there was a problem that existed that both shared. Does that excuse the WS? No way. They are to blame for that choice, and the action can never be taken back. But the truth remains: there are problems present BEFORE the A. Those problems are the responsibility to both people. For those of you that say you just want to take a chance on a new relationship... there will still be problems, right?

In my case there were problems, I just never saw them, or maybe I did, and never took the time to analyze them. I guess I thought that we would have time to work on things after the kids were gone.... I'm not sure... but I do know that I didn't ever stop loving, and couldn't imagine that my H would!

Looking back during IC and MC, I came to realize that even though I didn't have an A or go outside the marriage, I too had issues. Doesn't mean that the A should have happened --- just one of many reasons why it did.

My H lied, and in essence left the marriage during his LTA, but I also had left the marriage in my own way as well. It's no excuse for the A, but once everything was in the open and we had MC, I realized that I do want to grow old with my H... not someone else. The grass isn't any greener on the other side of the fence: there are brown spots in most lawns!

After all is said and done, we are happier than ever. Will it continue?? Who knows, but I am hopeful, and I try to live one day at a time, and let the future take care of itself.

And I think that is a lot of why I try with my H... because I can't face my own stupidity.

Good point Weepy, I too reflect upon my own stupidity, but it's not the only reason I chose to stay.

but shit splatters and i was standing closest

Dis

Loved the way you stated that!

What a great topic. I have enjoyed reading all the varied responses.

As intensely dead-on honest as this thread is...it probably won't get any kudos for PR on infidelity survival. Obviously, for many, the reality of infidelity bites hard and leaves indelible scars.

This thread is a testament to that reality...and why it is such an important thread.

It IS surprising to see all these posts from so many of us who are well past the panic and depletion of discovery, and who are actively trying to adjust to the new order of a marriage that will just never have the same DNA we once believed it had. Surprising and validating.

It is true that nothing is perfect and there are no guarantees in life for anything...

And that everyone's situation is unique.

There are those marriages that were unfulfilling for one reason or another from the get-go.....and that baseline is shared by both. Reconciling in that scenario could well be a refreshing change and improvement.

This thread is significant for those whose marriages were not overtly "troubled".....that had just the usual stuff of a "normal" relationship.

For the BS who does not wear both hats and therefore does not have an onboard awareness of betrayal (and this is not a judgment, just a fact) reconciling after infidelity carries a myriad of deeply personal decisions. Decisions that are not cut and dry or timed....but are an evolving process.

One of the major components of infidelity is preoccupation with self......

After discovery, that quality then flows over and become a life lesson for the BS.

In the saddest irony.....the WS distances themselves from the BS and the marriage during the affair....

And for recovery and then to attempt reconciling, the BS must then distance themselves to re-identify with self.

The self-journey that is required to wade thru this part of the process does inspire the BS to gain perspective and 20/20 vision about themselves, their spouse, the marriage and most definitely what now needs to be their own criteria for life.

Some people can integrate that back into the marriage.....some find that they cannot.

but weepy honey.. don't ever think you are stupid

OK, I don't think I'm stupid, but the choice of staying in an R where I know that he's never going to "get it", kind of makes me wonder what my motivations for staying are.

Even my IC asks me almost weekly "Why are you still with this man?" And I come up with "because I must be stupid".

I can't help but feel that kicking him out on Dday would have taken strength and I was weak. I never had the power to make him choose, he took that. He got to be the "good guy" and walk away from them on his own. I was the one who sat there and begged him not to leave (even though he had no intention ever of doing that).

Maybe I haven't left because I'm weak, ok, not stupid. And maybe that is what I'm doing... gathering my strength.

Is my M better than it was pre-A? No. Better than it was during the A period? Absolutely. I don't take the abuse any more. I refuse to take the blame for what's wrong with our M, it's both of us now.

About 4 years after I first suspected and confronted him, I left the M. I stopped trying. I let him control everything and just existed. I gave up me, the kids, my independence, my will, everything to "get by". I don't want to do that again.

This thread has certainly opened my eyes, my mind, and a few old wounds. There are quite a few goofy immature people on this site, but everyone in this thread is amazing. I didn't realize how many of us having the same issues and are still here many years later.

I know As are so very damaging, and I know they are the "outward symptom" of a problem. To me- that means that up until the WS CHOSE to betray their spouse- there was a problem that existed that both shared.

I'll agree that might be the case is some marriages, maybe the majority, but I'm like Skye and some others,I'm not owning that in my situation. I think I was a damn good husband for a long long time. Up until the just before d-day, I was totally committed and thought I had a great marriage, totally completely trusting of my W. I had always thought that I had made mistakes and wrong choices, but if nothing else I did marry the right woman. Well, I guess I was wrong about that, but I don't think the problem was one we shared. The problem was she was just plain mis-wired, a screwed up childhood or similar problem just makes her able to justify that kind of selfish behavior.

You can't be selfish in a loving relationship. There are "givers" and there are "takers". You need two "givers" to make a marriage work. My problem was refusing to see the obvious for so many years.

I haven't been there but have a strong suspicion that even if some KISA took me away from the current miserable life and offered me a chance of a brand new untainted relationship, I would probably fail to function well in it also

I have to look at this differently too. I know what I thought I had, and I liked it. I would certainly be more careful as to who I committed to, but once decided, I'm all in. If you've had it ( or at least thought you did) and lost it, nothing else is worth settling for and I'm willing to take that risk again. Maybe that's just the hopeless romantic talking...

Even my IC asks me almost weekly "Why are you still with this man?" And I come up with "because I must be stupid".

weepy,

I can relate. I've always said I'm either stupid or stubborn.

I remember the MC giving me a pity look and telling me that multiple A's have a slim to none chance of R. I'm still here, so take your pick.

twisted... yeah, bullheadedness might have something to do with it too.

Actually my IC asked me what I considered some of my strengths and stubborness was something I listed as a virtue and a fault of mine.

So am I goring my way through every day because I think there's something here worth saving? or because I can't admit to myself that it's not?

My marriage was a good marriage.....I thought. I knew my WH had painful issues from his childhood, but I never pushed him to talk about them much. I just knew in my heart that he loved me, and even though he had been inconsiderate and selfish many times, I just accepted ALL OF HIM with love. I knew that of all things that can go wrong in a marriage that