SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

putting back on BS hat now...

i know that one of the reoccurring themes for me is the ability to be vulnerable with my STBXWH. i need this in a M. it is really important to me. i don't want to/can't spend the rest of my life sharing my life and heart with someone i can't be vulnerable with.

honestly, on so many levels i can let all of this go. perhaps b/c i can understand why and how it happened. i've been there. perhaps i feel like i deserve it. i probably do.

i am willing to take that emotional leap of faith with him and not look back too much. but i need him to show me that he's capable of looking inside himself and dealing with his issues before i can feel safe with him. if i believed that he was really exploring wth happened and why, then i could start to open up and rebuild that safety around him.

i know that as a WW begging to be kept, i tried to do anything and everything he wanted me to do. i realize now that it probably wasn't as much as i could've and should've done. we were flying blind. he didn't want counseling and i was just working off of what my IC was telling me. he (IC) wasn't necessarily supportive of the M continuing. we stumbled on. i kept working on it. and slowly things seem to get better. i was careful to call him often and check in, ask permission to go out with friends, and didn't go out at all for months after DDay. to this day i am extra cautious about making sure he knows what i'm doing, who i am with, and where i am. i listened to him as often and as much as he wanted, i answered questions, i didn't fight back when he hurled insults. he doesn't remember any of this now.

i thought this was enough. i'm not sure it was.

i know that what he is doing now is not enough.

plesk3yl - I don't know what is the case with truly R'd couples... I think to some degree we all kinda fly by th seat of our pants.

But I do know that there came a time when I did just kinda quit talking about it...partly because I didn't need to as much but mostly because I had had the experiences with ruined moments, ruined days. To some degree I became afraid to talk about it...and that became a real stumbling block in our reconcilation - still is. Then sometimes I just get tired of feeling so damn needy all the time...I get angry that I even need to still talk about something. Both of those scenarios set the stage for me to pull away...but because I am still trying to move toward, it creates this crazy whirlwind inside of me and a situation that is building but that FWH doesn't necessarily see because it is not so obvious.

The times that I find myself sitting with the yellow pages opened up the the "Attorney" section is mostly because I just want this crazy shit inside of me to STOP...and D. feels like the only definitive answer for that. I also find myself looking outside of the marriage - not necessarily to have an A. but to just imagine a different life...almost to the degree that it doesn't matter HOW that life is different, just that it IS.

I can only say this today because FWH and I had a discussion along these lines last night. Everything that was discussed yesterday kinda brought this all to a head for me...and I just couldn't keep it in any longer. So I talked. And to his credit - he listened AND supported. He didn't freak...he didn't self-protect...he just allowed and reassured that we would work through this together. And while his reaction made it safe for me to talk...it was the talking itself that released some of the poison of what I was feeling. All of a sudden I didn't feel so alone...it's didn't feel so overwhelming...and I actually felt closer by being able to be honest with him about what I was experiencing. In an odd sort of way, we grew as a result.

But tomorrow, next week...I'll probably be right back into trying to manage this myself - not wanting to spoil the moment.

*sigh*.

Right now, I'm kind of longing for the Plain of Lethal Flatness. Better than the pit of despair. I think I can see it from here.

One of the things I have hated the most, is wishing for her to just die. Especially after the suicide threats, and especially after "talking her down".

If she were to fall in love with me now (and I know she doesn't want to, she's fighting it still) - and I decide to D her, I would have no heartburn over that.

As far as an A being a deal-breaker? I would like to think that is, but I have been cheated on by several girlfriends in the past, (I guess I'm attracted to "the type") - and every time, I just wanted them back. I guess it's not the A at all. It's the lying, and lack of respect. (of which, the A is a symptom).

I'm really giving her a chance to fix her brokenness. And she is wavering back and forth on trying to fix that. Whether she has affairs or not is really the issue. I was overlooking her lack of respect, her distance, her psychoanalizing, because I loved her. But that's the real problem in the relationship that will end it. Not another A. Not another d-day. If she strays again, it will be because she didn't fix her brokenness. I'll be long gone before that happens.

Just to add so as not leave the impression that communication is the only factor that affects such an outcome...

Infidelity does a real number on us BSs...one that, despite the emotional rollercoaster we experience, we may still not fully understand it's impact and why it takes us so long to find our footing again.

It awakens a monster inside of us that we never knew existed. We find ourselves in consuming rage, thinking the most disturbing horrid thoughts - in great detail, I might add, and behaving in ways that cause us to no longer recognize ourselves. We find our strength replaced with indecision and doubt - not for a moment but for years. We find ourselves not only questioning our values but perhaps even changing or purposefully acting outside of them. We no longer recognize ourselves - or this monster that is so unfamiliar...that is obviously a part of us but just a part that we do not know what to do with now.

And in the midst of that we see and experience unjustness. We discover first-hand that the world is not a fair place, that we are given no guarantees. That not only can we not trust people but that we cannot even trust the people that profess to love us intimately. We begin to see that the monsters exist in all of us.

And as we learn all of this, we discover the most damning aspect of all: we cannot trust ourselves. We cannot trust our eyes, our intellect, our gut...or if we can, we cannot trust ourselves to behave in ways to protect ourselves. It's a double-edge sword: we find we were either clueless or courageless.

It's not earth-shattering when infidelity enters...it's soul-shattering.

It takes time to sort through that...to reassemble our pieces. So I'm not surprised that a BS may find themselves facing D. years later and after a "successful" reconcilation.

Sometimes when the pieces finally do all come back together again, it looks nothing like what it once did. Sometimes those changes can be incorporated...sometimes not.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 12:38 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

But I do know that there came a time when I did just kinda quit talking about it...partly because I didn't need to as much but mostly because I had had the experiences with ruined moments, ruined days. To some degree I became afraid to talk about it...and that became a real stumbling block in our reconcilation - still is. Then sometimes I just get tired of feeling so damn needy all the time...I get angry that I even need to still talk about something. Both of those scenarios set the stage for me to pull away...but because I am still trying to move toward, it creates this crazy whirlwind inside of me and a situation that is building but that FWH doesn't necessarily see because it is not so obvious.

The times that I find myself sitting with the yellow pages opened up the the "Attorney" section is mostly because I just want this crazy shit inside of me to STOP...and D. feels like the only definitive answer for that. I also find myself looking outside of the marriage - not necessarily to have an A. but to just imagine a different life...almost to the degree that it doesn't matter HOW that life is different, just that it IS.

I can only say this today because FWH and I had a discussion along these lines last night. Everything that was discussed yesterday kinda brought this all to a head for me...and I just couldn't keep it in any longer. So I talked. And to his credit - he listened AND supported. He didn't freak...he didn't self-protect...he just allowed and reassured that we would work through this together. And while his reaction made it safe for me to talk...it was the talking itself that released some of the poison of what I was feeling. All of a sudden I didn't feel so alone...it's didn't feel so overwhelming...and I actually felt closer by being able to be honest with him about what I was experiencing. In an odd sort of way, we grew as a result.

But tomorrow, next week...I'll probably be right back into trying to manage this myself - not wanting to spoil the moment.

Your post hit me like a slap in the face...yes, yes, yes...this is exactly where I am.

And clueless as to where I will end up....today, I'm just sad in every fiber of my body....

I so want this to end...and see D as the ONLY way out....I'm tired of accepting scraps of remorse tinged with anger....

My FWH is a very smart man...but not smart enough to see he is killing my love for him with each passing day...or maybe he sees it and does not care...

Either way, I don't see my future here with him...in fact, I don't see my future anywhere.

I was so pleased to see the post about talking about the affair way past it's ending.

The only thing I asked of my husband, the cheater, was to initiate a conversation daily about the affair--not the details, but the feelings, emotions, etc., that he dealt with then and now. I never asked him for passwords; I never asked for transparencey; I never looked at his cell phone bill, etc. I truly believed that eventually we would have talked it to death and we could reconcile. He won't/can't do that. It's nice to see that my thoughts are validated.

I am just over two years past Dday and I am increasingly leaning tward D.

My best friend told me at the veery beginning not to make any major decision until I was emotionally stable, which I think is the best advice I got.

Maybe others have had similar advice or pure instinct/common sense has led them to wait for emotionally stability before making such a life changing decision.

I think also that infidelity does change the BS in fundamental ways.

I know that I will never feel the same about WS as I once did. I know that I no longer feel the loyalty to him and our marriage that I once did.

Infidelity does a real number on us BSs...one that, despite the emotional rollercoaster we experience, we may still not fully understand it's impact and why it takes us so long to find our footing again.

It awakens a monster inside of us that we never knew existed. We find ourselves in consuming rage, thinking the most disturbing horrid thoughts - in great detail, I might add, and behaving in ways that cause us to no longer recognize ourselves.

(((truth)))

It was the rage at being lied to that made me face the undeniable reality that I am responsible for my own life and my own choices - and that included my choice to reconcile. I faced down my anger to get to the root of it - that if I didn't want a marriage of lies, I had to be willing to walk away from one. My anger (and the rage) at my situation was really the result of being unable to get my husband to do what I wanted him to do (be honest with me). I was furious that I couldn't get him to tell me the truth. That was when I finally "got" the serenity prayer. When I stopped trying to get my husband to be completely honest - I was able to face the responsibility I had to myself.

I had to accept responsibility for my circumstances. I had to see that by trying to get my husband to tell the truth - my actions (inactions actually) were contradicting my words. I had to face the reality that if I wanted my circumstances to change - that I would have to change them.

I realized that I could have a successful relationship built on honesty - I just had to face the fact that the one thing I could not control was whether or not I could have a successful and honesty relationship with my husband (it was and always has been *his* choice to lie or be honest - I have no control over his choices). That in fact, to have a successful and honest relationship *at all* meant walking away from one that wasn't. I had to accept that to have the relationship I wanted, I had to find someone who wanted the same things (and allow my husband to be who he wanted to be, even if that meant he wouldn't be with me). I had to decide whether I wanted a healthy relationship more than I wanted to stay married.

I was able to see all of this (at five months out from DDay) because I forced myself to face what I was becoming (bitter and angry). I had to accept responsibility for my circumstances *and* my own actions as a result, if I wanted to be able to change them. I stopped blaming the betrayal for my anger and instead, shed my victimhood and took responsibility for myself, my own actions, emotions, and my own life - so that I could make the kinds of choices that would bring me a happier future.

The moment I changed my focus from trying to get my husband to do *xyz*, and placed it on my own choices instead - was the moment my husband actually began being honest. I have been able to rebuild my marriage - but I know without a doubt that I would not have the marriage I now do if I had continued to view myself as a victim and used my victimhood to try to get my husband to change. It was only by taking responsibility for changing myself and my own choices that I saw the freedom those choices offered me - and my husband finally woke up to the fact that he was not the only one with choices, and that he had no more control over mine than I did over his.

I think there are so many factors behind why people ultimately divorce that comparisons are meaningless. We all have the lives we have chosen. If we don't like our choices, we are free to make different ones. Even deciding not to chose is a choice. When we finally realize the power we all have to bring ourselves our own happiness, that the only things standing in our way are the hard choices we fear making - suddenly those hard choices don't look intimidating anymore - it becomes increasingly apparent that our misery stems from avoiding them.

The key to making the right choices is in being responsible for not just ourselves but our circumstances, and in letting go of the outcome those choices bring from other people. The right choices for ourselves are *right* independently of the responses of others. When we care about our own well being, the right choices (even when hard) become the only sane choices to make.

We all have the power to bring wonder and joy to our lives. We just have to stop fearing the choices necessary to get us there.

[This message edited by DesertLotus at 1:46 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

Man, this is powerful stuff. Every post seems to hit it on the head.

Like I said earlier, "affairs are like stepping in dog shit, you scrape it off all you can, but the smell still lingers until you get so sick of it that you just throw the shoe away and go buy a new one."

And "Clint" you said it all in one sentence. Short but sweet.

i've been pondering the options for R. i know that i have to be able to vulnerable around my STBXWH. i know that i am capable of that again given the right circumstances.

i read so many posts about how the BS knows that things have changed forever and don't really feel like the WS completely has their back etc.

i view this whole situation like allowing your child to handle breakables. WSs are like 3yr olds....you'd never let them touch the nice vase (my heart).

as they grow up we let them do more. maybe you would let them pick it up if you were right there. perhaps the WS has started counseling and talking and showing remorse. you might open up a little.

maybe as the child grows into teen you let them handle the vase unsupervised so they can dust the table. your WS may have taken the IC and MC seriously. you might start to see definite personal growth and changes in them as an individual not just a space. perhaps you can open up and feel more with and for them.

as your child matures into a young adult you don't worry so much about them touching the delicate vase at all. you know they'll be careful. you know they wouldn't break it purposefully. you know if there is an accident they'll be honest and tell you what happened. As your

WS grows and has shown change over time, you might be able to become that fully trusting individual. you will trust that if problems occur in the M that they will handle it differently this time (no A).

this is what i would hope for if my STBXWH were to ever turn the corner towards a genuine R. i don't think he will. but it is this idea that allows me to toy with the idea of R. i need to believe that i can be safe and fully vulnerable with him. i need to know that the very special component that makes an M mean more than friends can be found again.

WOW!! I consider us successfully R but this is a very interesting and thought provoking thread.

I think one of the after effects of an A is that it changes the BS into a completely different person. New priorities, new behaviors, new standards... And I don't mean just in your relationship with your spouse. I mean with everything. (Example I used to always wear a watch and be the time keeper/calendar keeper/planner, now I don't wear a watch and we get there when we get there)

I am DIFFERENT. And in a few years I may find that this different person is not a match for my FWH. We matched up preA. Do we match up now?

And also--the A forced me to picture my life without my spouse. The more I was forced to look at that picture--the better it started to look. Now I KNOW that I can be on my own, I am not so scared of D. D had become an option for me when it never was before the A. I am not dependent on my spouse anymore. And frankly I never will let myself feel dependent on him again. I will maintain that sense of independence I lost after a few years of marriage.

And lastly FWH's A happened when I needed him the most. I do worry that when he needs me in the future, when I have to make sacrifices for the "greater good of the marriage" well I might not be willing to make sacrifices...

I am 3-4yrs out and I know that for all intents and purposes my m is over. This is my second go round with the ea/pa. The S has changed who I am. Prior to the A I was willing to live with alot of things I can no longer live with.

THe betrayal has cut me deeply and his lack of commitment to truly r. He has never shown our m the same intensity he gave his ea. He has shown me that he isn't worthy of what I have to offer. He isn't willing to take responsibility for the damage he has caused.

Unfortunately, just being a "good" husband isn't enough.

I got married for better or worse but that was with a h who I believed was as committed as I was, now I know that it's not the case.There comes a point when too much damage has been done and can't be undone.

The way I see it, there is nothing else that the WS can give to the BS or to the marriage itself. The WS already gave everything they had to the ow when they made the choice to have an a. They made the ultimate of sacrifices to the ow, which was to keep the a going at any and all cost even if it meant to destroy the marriage with the BS. Even if it meant to sell their soul to the devil and to the ow.

What can possibly top that? What more can the WS offer the BS now if that was the ultimate of sacrafices? That will forever be etched into the mind of the BS no matter how long the marraige survives.

I've read every word of this thread and it is so helpful. I'm only 7 months out but I ask myself everyday why am I still here? At first I was so shocked I just wanted everything to be ok, I wanted to win, I was territorial. NOw that I have stepped back I just feel numb. How could my H do this to us? Why? I feel this marriage is over and we both know it. My FWH has done everything he can to help me heal but we both know it's not getting any better-just worse. I realy appreciate the insights here because I can see where we are headed. FWH made a choice that all the apologies in the world can't fix. I really think D will be easier b/c at least you know you made it out with "some" dignity. My worst fear is to R and then this happens again!!!!Thanks everyone!

Oh - many reasons I have not decided to D yet.

Here's one:

When my ex cheated on me, it was an exit-affair. Leaving that relationship STILL hurts. And that was 19 years ago. D won't stop my pain.

DesertLotus writes:

I had to accept responsibility for my circumstances *and* my own actions as a result, if I wanted to be able to change them. I stopped blaming the betrayal for my anger and instead, shed my victimhood and took responsibility for myself, my own actions, emotions, and my own life - so that I could make the kinds of choices that would bring me a happier future.

It was only by taking responsibility for changing myself and my own choices that I saw the freedom those choices offered me - and my husband finally woke up to the fact that he was not the only one with choices, and that he had no more control over mine than I did over his.

When we finally realize the power we all have to bring ourselves our own happiness, that the only things standing in our way are the hard choices we fear making - suddenly those hard choices don't look intimidating anymore - it becomes increasingly apparent that our misery stems from avoiding them.

The key to making the right choices is in being responsible for not just ourselves but our circumstances, and in letting go of the outcome those choices bring from other people. The right choices for ourselves are *right* independently of the responses of others. When we care about our own well being, the right choices (even when hard) become the only sane choices to make.

We all have the power to bring wonder and joy to our lives. We just have to stop fearing the choices necessary to get us there.

I agree with this philosphy 100%. Healing is my choice. I will do it with our without my ws. No one can stop me from being happy and having a joy filled life except myself. I know that life can hand me the unacceptable - betrayal, untimely deaths, illness - but in the final analysis, only I can move me forward. (I must admit, I also have an awesome spiritual life upon which I rely) It was frightening for me to stop asking my ws to fix the pain he caused me to have. It was frightening for me to go back to IC to learn how to heal. It was frightening for me to stay with my wh. But even more frightening is the thought of putting my life path in the hands of another and forego my main responsibility to myself.

I might always have a broken piece inside as a result of this ordeal. That's OK with me. No one ever guaranteed that I would go through life unbroken. My daily challenge is how do I live well despite all that has happened.

I wish I was as articulate as DesertLotus. I hope I made my point.

[This message edited by ktm250mx at 8:46 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)]

And also--the A forced me to picture my life without my spouse

This whole thread has got me a little antsy.

I know that I will never feel the same about WS as I once did. I know that I no longer feel the loyalty to him and our marriage that I once did

Some days I find myself hoping to find she's up to it again, just so I can get it over with. The lack of meaningful conversation about this doesn't make it fade in the least. I've resolved not to beat her over the head about this, dealing with and trying to get through it, being strong, but she's never asked how I'm doing with it. Isn't that the WS's job? Something went wrong right from the start, and it doesn't take much to send whats left over the cliff, even years later.

Probably the most interesting and insightful thread I've read in awhile.

I have not posted here in several years, but this thread is excellent and I felt compelled to add my 2 cents. I am seven years out. My husband and I separated for a year (at my insistence) during which time we dated and went to marriage counseling weekly.

Many of you have made excellent points and I can relate to several of them.

My spouse is one of those who is regretful and has worked very hard to earn my trust and put our marriage back together. I do respect him again, he's earned it, though I'll never understand what possessed him after 26 years of marriage to screw around.

Having said that, I will never trust him again as I did pre-affair, as I know what he is capable of now. I will never have the same naive faith in him that I had, and will never view our marriage in the same light I used to. Those changes are permanent and no amount of work on his part will alter those perceptions. But I recognize that those are changes in me which I would carry into any relationship I were to have now, be it with him or another man. I will never have that same innocence I had with him. Those days are gone forever.

I also agree with the person who said(paraphrasing here) that our tolerance level is greatly reduced. Absolutely! I will never again tolerate the things I did with him. The substandard relationship prior and during the affair, the inattention to our relationship and my needs. I'd walk now if that ever happens again. I feel that he has redeemed his "get out of jail free" card, so to speak, and I have no tolerance for bullshit anymore.

Also, if he ever cheats again, there will be no big drama. I will simply secure a divorce attorney, he will be served at work, and that'll be the first he'll know that I know. I don't check up on him, I have extended to him again trust and respect. If he screws up, I'll know. My gut told me last time and it'll tell me again. I've learned to pay attention to my gut and respect what it is telling me.

I also feel it would be easier for me to walk away from the marriage now, because I endured all the shit he tossed at me during that time and I survived it. I survived a year's separation, and know that no matter what happens, I'll survive it.

Will we make it? Only time will tell, but I feel pretty comfortable that we will. But if we don't I know I'll be okay, too.

Thank you for this topic, it's awesome.

Irish

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bold]Maybe the answer (or the avoidance of the problem) is in the continuing to talk about it. Maybe infidelity is something that you never "get over" but instead something that you agree to now face together - for the rest of your life.

Just something to think about.... [/bold]

Ding, ding, ding...I think you may be on to something here. I've equated our marriage as a book, each year being a chapter in the book of our marriage. His affair occupied two chapters in our book. Since those chapters, we've written seven more and those chapters are past memories now, however we recently had a situation where the wind blew the pages of our book and opened it to those chapters again (through no fault of my husband). We talked at length and as often as I needed to about the situation even though I'm sure he'd prefer not to, until I felt comfortable with things and ready to move on again. I have always felt free to discuss things relating to the affair through the years though the need has lessened as time passed. He has always been patient and respectful of my need to express my feelings about it. I think that it key to the survival of the marriage.

Again, great thread!

Irish

Irish perfectly described the changes I've undergone - both personally and in my relationship. Thank you for your eloquence.